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ISKCON U-Turns Explained
bluecupid shares: Since Rajiv makes ISKCON part of his research, you might be interested to know why many of the "gurukuli" youth have U-turned from it upon reaching adulthood. Keep in mind that these people never CHOSE to join ISKCON but were born into it through their parents. They grew up in ISKCON's "gurukula" system wherein many of them experienced severe psychological, physical and even sexual abuse. It may be that had they not experienced this abuse, they would not have done U-turns, and there are some who, having even experienced such abuse, did not do a complete U-turn from either ISKCON or Vaishnavism in general. These young people, now adults, are currently writing about their growing up in ISKCON and what affect it has had on them as adults. Here's a peak into one such life: http://childhoodissacred.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/an-epiphany/ Another U-turner is a relatively longtime adult member (at the time) who was considered an intellectual treasure some decades ago in the organization. He has since gone on to write books about his experiences and other topics. His critique is insightful and not entirely negative. Website; http://surrealist.org/writing/gelberg.html In the section where he discusses all the things he learned from his ISKCON experience, I'm posting below what he writes "ON TRANSPLANTING AN INDIAN RELIGIOUS TRADITION TO THE WEST" but I recommend you read all of the "things learned". 40 I learned, in the end, that it is nearly impossible to transmit and translate a religious tradition from its land of origin into a completely foreign cultural environment. However earnestly one may attempt to preserve its original cultural and experiential ethos, that tradition is unavoidably refracted through a radically different cultural lens, and in the process is distorted, perhaps fatally. 41 I learned that any such attempt to universalize a religious tradition is further complicated when the transitioning culture has been redefined and repackaged as an elitist monastic society preaching a world-rejecting ideology. 42 I learned that such a foreign religious transplant, re-branded as a world-rejecting monasticism, would naturally create a high level of tension with the new host society, further causing the transplant to assume a defensive posture and recede into a hard institutional shell. ...... 45 I learned a thing or two about the role of the intellectual in a cultic milieu. Because intelligence, like everything else, is to be used only in Krishna's service, the intellectually inclined member finds him or herself constrained to a narrow range of intellectual or academic activity. His research library consists not of the accumulated wisdom of mankind, but of the writings of his guru (and those who support the guru's views). Thus, while the independent, non-apologetical intellectual engages in open-ended reflection and analysis in search of deeper insight and unbiased understanding of a chosen subject, the cult intellectual works under a particular mandate: to explain, promote and defend the ideology of the cult, as well as to promote the institution that embodies it. ... Carpentier responds to bluecupid: I often wonder at the rather sudden epidemic of sexual abuse in all organisations, spiritual, religious or not...Is it not some fashion that has become endemic.Millions of people now remember that they were sexually abused in infancy or adolescence. I am sure most are sincere and some are telling the truth but still! In some countries in the West many women equate any sort of sexual contact that they did not specifically demand with rape or abuse. Rajiv's comment: "...This "blame Indian culture" is yet another example of superimposing western bias (in this case from the imagined liberal kind). I went to a catholic school in delhi and many boys said that as punishment they often got caned in a private room after having them remove their pants! In USA today there would a huge class action law suit against the whole chain of catholic schools. Probably it also happened in non catholic schools judging from stories told by boys from various places... So these "excuses" by uturners are just that. Their are right in making the charge, but wrong in accusing a particular faith or culture for it. The same is true of blaming caste bias on Hinduism per se. I was recently at the Huffington Post holiday party in Manhattan where a young Muslin woman (self classified as a Muslim feminist) was telling me how one prominent Indian Hindu scholar (name withheld) was giving a talk in Istanbul recently, and got totally stumped and embarrassed when an Indian Muslim woman in the audience asked her of caste biases in Hinduism. The Hindu woman had no idea what to say and retracted her entire thesis in embarassment. So I told this Muslim feminist that Islam has an even more severe caste system. I explained how the ashraf muslims (upper caste) in south asia imagined they were descendents of Arabs, Turks or Persians, including Saids who claimed to be direct descendents of the prophet. How the ethnic clashes in Pakistan were often involving those who migrated from the India side (mujahirs) after partition, and hence were not considered ashraf but ajlaf muslims (lower caste). This muslim caste is a form of racism. There has never been a single panel on it in the AAR or the past 40 years of South Asian Conferences in Madison where Hindu caste is staple diet for the scholars. Muslim caste is worse than the Hindu caste bias which is recognized and has quotas etc to help those who got affected. The muslim caste has no self consciousness on the part of the ashraf - Shabana Azmi and her pompous husband and most other prominent Indian muslim elites proudly claim to be ashraf, in ways that would be considered scandalous if brahmins did that in Delhi's elite circles. The muslim feminist was in full agreement with my understanding of the muslim caste system. I went on to tell her that every Pakistani newspaper in any language has matrimonial ads where they announce the caste of the person and the desired caste of the partner they want - this is out in the open as muslim caste. There was a christian Indian also present in the conversation. I was about to open the question of christian caste, but she anticipated this and calmly walked away in another direction. The muslim feminist then told me: Why did xyz (name withheld) not respond this way in the conference when she was asked? I told her that it was the wrong kind of Hindu ambassador invited to the event. " Kundan responds:
"... debate on prime time on CNN-IBN will
further substantiate Rajiv ji’s view that both Islam and Christianity practices
casteism in India,
given that there are two Islamic scholars who talking about the need of caste
based reservations within the Muslim population in India
(the case of Dalit Christians is also taken up).
Though both Islam and Christianity have adopted devious and
violent measures for conversion in India
throughout Indian history, they have always claimed that they want to bring
about the conversion to end caste-based discrimination in Hinduism.
There is no society in the world where there isn’t any
discrimination. But somehow Hinduism is a chief target of intellectuals to
criticize. In the psychological parlance, we call this as “shadow projection.”
Shadow projection happens when one projects one’s deficiencies, problems, and
issues onto others, instead of examining it within oneself. What happens on an
individual level also happens on a societal level. If one looks at the American
society, discrimination based on lines of race, skin-color, gender, and
religion abounds. However, India
continues to be center-stage of projection where all discrimination happens.
Despite that South Africa
continued to practice apartheid till only a few years back, the specialty of
Hinduism in this area continues to be reserved.
Caste discrimination happens to be one of the
greatest
barriers among the Hindu Indian American kids in having a confident
identity
about themselves. It is also one that makes westernized Indians or
“White
Indians” as Rajiv ji mentioned in his dialogue with Francis Clooney at
UMass, Dartmouth
highly apologetic. It produces “Difference Anxiety from Below” and
creates a
fertile ground for assimilation and disowning of one’s Hindu/Indian
identity.
As we begin “reversing the gaze” we will ultimately need to write ... It requires work along the following lines:
Venkat adds: "A very important point that is overlooked in any discussion about ISKCON is that Prabhupada emulated the Christian model as well as fundamental beliefs and incorporated them into his movement. It was, in a certain sense, inculturation, just that it happened in the reverse direction. Consider these:
The list can go on but what Gelberg and others miss is that
ISKCON's is not a problem of a foreign dharma entering the US soil -
after all Christianity is a desert religion of Semitic origin. It is
foremost the case of a dharmic religion acquiring Abrahamic memes. The
abuse in ISKCON has been a fraction of what happens in the Catholic or
Protestant churches but the media is generally prone to treat Christian
churches with kid gloves. As Daniel Dennett says the only difference
between a cult and a religion is the number of followers it has
acquired."
bluecupid responds to Venkat:
""Prabhupada's opposition to sex is directly borrowed from Christianity
(Matthew 19:11-12, 1 Corinthians 7), and was a radical departure from the Hindu ethos regarding sexuality." Wrong. Its borrowed from the Bhagavat Purana, Bhakti Sandarbha, and Hari Bhakti Vilas. Please see here; http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/Brahmacarya.htm#Sex_and_begetting_prog\ eny One of the problems when discussing ISKCON with Indian Hindus is that they are more often than not unfamiliar with the texts of the previous Vaishnava tradition that ISKCON sprang from and which much of ISKCON is in fact based. "The abuse in ISKCON has been a fraction of what happens in the Catholic or Protestant churches but the media is generally prone to treat Christian churches with kid gloves." Wrong again. There was hardly any coverage of the ISKCON scandals in the mainstream media when the news broke. Even now, when you say "Hare Krishnas" in the West, most people think of happy people singing and dancing in the streets back in the 70s and often wonder "where have they gone?" They are unaware of the scandals. Same in India. Unless you are an ISKCON member or related to them, you would not be privy to what happened. Even the new comers who join the organization now are largely unaware. As far as the child abuse being a "fraction" of what took place in the Catholic Church during the same time period, well, adjust for population size and they are pretty par. It may even be more in ISKCON."
[this post is tied to the 'Jesus in India' thread that was discussed else. search Keywords]
December 28
Frank shares:
I am about to travel to India to produce a documentary and would like to ask for recommendations. The film will be called Beyond Reason and will be about the roots of Vedanta and the scientific nature of Indian Philosophy.
I have already produced two documentary films on spirituality that you are guaranteed to love. These documentaries are sure to invoke a lively discuss. The first film, Beyond Me, is about consciousness, instincts, personality disorders and evolution and makes a case for how meditation is the solution for human suffering. The second film, Beyond Belief, presents a case for Missing Knowledge that Jesus taught and that His authentic teachings have their roots in Vedanta. http://www.beyondmefilm.com"
Ravindra reviews the films
Watched both the movies.
Movie 1: Good documented case of Punar-Janma (re-incarnation) with lot of fuzzy statements about claims on behalf of Buddhism's new contributions on Yoga, that can not be substantiated... Movie 2: Mainly Speculative, wishful thinking, need of Christians to show Christianity and Jesus as Victimized, so create a story that Brahmans and Xshatriyas tried to kill Jesus. And Jesus learning Yoga directly from Rishis and Mahavira etc.. Basically a load of BS. December 28
January 1
Jaunary 1
January 1
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