Showing posts with label Krishna. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Krishna. Show all posts

Prejudice in Hinduism studies: The case of Microsoft Encarta - chapter 16 part 1

Go to Chapter 15

Pdf of the book is available for free download here.

The scholarship of certain sections of the academic community studying Hinduism has been controversial in the Indian community. In this article we try to examine whether there is truth to this controversy, and whether such academics influence the mainstream portrayal of ‘Hinduism’ in standard sources. We use the Microsoft® Corporation’s Encarta® Encyclopedia as the reference for this study.

Introduction

In this article we discuss the differences, in both approach and result, of Encarta’s articles on Hinduism in comparison with the articles on some of the other major world religions in Encarta. Encarta Encyclopedia is published by the Microsoft Corporation, which claims that it is the
“Best-selling encyclopedia brand”. Encarta is widely used as a reference source in American schools. In particular, because of its widespread use among children, we would expect Encarta’s coverage of religions to be even-handed, sensitive and unprejudiced.

In particular, we contrast Encarta’s treatment of Hinduism, with the two other major religions—Islam and Christianity. On occasion, we also refer to the treatment of other religions like Judaism and Buddhism. The purpose of this article is not to make value judgments or a comparative study of the religions themselves. In studying such vast and complex phenomena as the major religions, one can always find conflicting or questionable issues, just as one can find highly elevating truths. What aspects of the religion get highlighted is a matter of editorial choice. Our interest is not in comparing the religions per se, but in understanding the differences in editorial choice—both in the selection of content as well as style in the scholarly treatment of these
religions in Encarta.

The Contents Page

Our study begins with the main contents page for each of the religions. In some cases, the contents page contains, in quotes, a single highlighted statement about the religion. In the 2002 version of Encarta, these quotes are present for Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism, and not for Christianity and Islam.

• Judaism: “The God of creation entered into a special relationship with the Jewish people at Sinai”.
• Buddhism: “Karma consists of a person’s acts and their ethical consequence”.
• Hinduism: “Rama and Krishna are said to be avatars of Vishnu though they were originally human heroes”.

We note that the one statement chosen to describe Hinduism repudiates Hindu belief, while the statements for the other two religions reflect a balanced, positive, or neutral stance. Notice also the use of ‘said to be’ in Hinduism while the statement on Judaism is presented in the editorial voice as a presentation of fact. To understand this representation, let us draw up a hypothetical quote on Christianity to parallel the quote on Hinduism.

• Christianity: Jesus Christ is said to be the ‘Son of God’ though he was just a human.

Irrespective of belief in the truth or falsity of this statement, or the parallel one in the case of Hinduism, when such a statement is the highlight of the commentary on a religion, it reflects a certain attitude about how the subject is approached.

Fundamental Principles

In the article on Hinduism, we find that the ‘Fundamental Principles’ are divided into four sections—‘Texts’, ‘Philosophy’, ‘Gods’ and ‘Worship and Ritual’. We find the sequencing of ideas within this section fairly haphazard—generally moving to specifics without laying out the general—giving the impression of a somewhat incoherent system.

Hinduism:
The canon of Hinduism is basically defined by what people do rather than what they think. Consequently, far more uniformity of behavior than of belief is found among Hindus, although very few practices or beliefs are shared by all. A few usages are observed by almost all Hindus: reverence for Brahmans and cows; abstention from meat (especially beef); and marriage within the caste (jati), in the hope of producing male heirs. By writing the above, the author takes the richness and diversity of Hindu thought and tries to approach it from the point of view of an orthodox church defining a single ‘canon’. Failing to find the ‘canon’ or articulate the underlying worldview of a system that allows many paths to flourish within it, the author quickly gives in to start listing mainly social practices. Let us see how the same issue is treated in Christianity.

Christianity:
Any phenomenon as complex and as vital as Christianity is easier to describe historically than to define logically, but such a description does yield some insights into its continuing elements and essential characteristics.

In the description of Christianity, Encarta approaches it from a point of view of humility—the problem being of the expository limitations of the author. No such humility is visible in the description of Hinduism, where the author quickly reduces any notion of complexity to an anthropological viewpoint.

Dealing with ‘Contradictions’

Let us see how the articles deal with supposed contradictions.

Hinduism:
Although Hindus believe and do many apparently contradictory things—contradictory not merely from one Hindu to the next, but also within the daily religious life of a single Hindu—each individual perceives an orderly pattern that gives form and meaning to his or her own life.

The article on Hinduism is very clear that there are contradictions, and highlights this aspect. The articles on Christianity and Islam are either unable to find any contradictions, or don’t find them the most significant aspect of the religion to cover. (For more on how contradictions are covered in Christianity and Islam, please read page 172, chapter 16)

The key to understanding both the diversity as well as the unity of Hinduism is neither in the search for a ‘canon’ (a strongly Christian worldview), nor in the anthropology of particular practices. It is in recognizing that the philosophical foundations of Hinduism have celebrated diversity of path and individuality (which itself is a distinctive feature), while at the same time encouraging theological debates to further understanding.

In the articles on Christianity and Islam the problem, if any, is usually depicted as that of the author’s inability to adequately describe complexity rather than one of internal contradictions within the religions. The author of the section on Hinduism apparently faces very little difficulty—she carries on with an anthropological description of practices ‘from above’—sure that any contradiction that is found is inherently in the religion itself, and not in any lack of understanding or expository ability.

Peaceful ‘Jihad’ and Violent ‘Ahimsa’

A further study about the difference in approach and attitude in the articles on religion can be found in the description of subtle concepts. We take two—jihad and ahimsa, in particular, both of which may be somewhat familiar to the lay reader.

Islam:
Many polemical descriptions of Islam have focused critically on the Islamic concept of jihad. Jihad, considered the sixth pillar of Islam by some Muslims, has been understood to mean holy war in these descriptions. However, the word in Arabic means ‘to struggle’ or ‘to exhaust one’s effort,’ in order to please God. Within the faith of Islam, this effort can be individual or collective, and it can apply to leading a virtuous life; helping other Muslims through charity, education, or other means; preaching Islam; and fighting to defend Muslims. Western media of the 20th century continue to focus on the militant interpretations of the concept of jihad, whereas most Muslims do not.

Hinduism:
The most important tenet of sanatana dharma for all Hindus is ahimsa, the absence of a desire to injure, which is used to justify vegetarianism (although it does not preclude physical violence
toward animals or humans, or blood sacrifices in temples). [Emphasis added]

In both cases, the authors treat subtle subjects in the respective religions. In the article on Islam, the author presents a sympathetic view of Jihad, and attempts to favorably influence Western perceptions. In the article on Hinduism the author adds decidedly unfavorable editorial asides seeking to ‘correct’ possibly favorable perceptions by introducing ‘contradictions’. The tone of the article again is of a higher entity looking down on lowly customs and illogical ‘native’ interpretations as in, ‘ahimsa . . . is used to justify’. This is an illustration of the very different viewpoint (dare we say ‘agenda’) from which the article on Hinduism is written. While the articles on Islam and Christianity attempt to uplift the reader to a refined understanding of those religions, the article on Hinduism attempts to denigrate instead. (For more on how Christianity and Islam would be explained if one went by the logic applied to Hinduism, please read page 174, chapter 16)

This is, surprisingly, not the only example of the technique of negative editorial asides in the article on Hinduism. Thus we see:

Hinduism:
Svadharma comprises the beliefs that each person is born to perform a specific job, marry a specific person, eat certain food, and beget children to do likewise and that it is better to fulfill one’s own dharma than that of anyone else (even if one’s own is low or reprehensible, such as that of the Harijan caste, the Untouchables, whose mere presence was once considered polluting to other castes). . .

A positive portrayal of ‘Svadharma’ (literally ‘Self-Dharma’) would introduce it as a high statement to an individual to discover and understand their purpose and calling with the cosmos in order to actualize it. Yet in the hands of the Encarta author it becomes an excuse for an aside on the historical practice of untouchability that is derided in contemporary mainstream Hinduism.

Philosophy or Anthropology?

The article on Hinduism appears quite disjointed in its understanding of philosophy, anthropology, cosmology, and mythology. The ‘Fundamental Principles’ leads with anthropology. As we see below the section on ‘Philosophy’ is mostly ‘mythology’ depicting ‘cosmology’—the very limited coverage of the well-developed schools of Hindu philosophy is relegated to a list in the section ‘Rise of Devotional Movements’, as a topic of History. Without setting out the philosophical principles, the underlying beliefs and practices of Hinduism, the coverage of ‘Gods’ and ‘Rituals’ appears particularly bizarre. Let us see how the section on ‘Philosophy’ begins.

Hinduism:
Incorporated in this rich literature is a complex cosmology. Hindus believe that the universe is a great, enclosed sphere, a cosmic egg, within which are numerous concentric heavens, hells, oceans, and continents, with India at the center. They believe that time is both degenerative—going from the golden age, or Krita Yuga, through two intermediate periods of decreasing goodness, to the present age, or Kali Yuga—and cyclic: At the end of each Kali Yuga, the universe is destroyed by fire and flood, and a new golden age begins.

Firstly, this is not philosophy, but as the author points out, cosmology. Secondly, as a description of Hindu cosmology, it is fairly inadequate and reductive. It fails to point that there are multiple
creation myths in Hindu texts. Also, as far as Hindu cosmology goes, people like the notable astronomer and author, Prof. Carl Sagan, have pointed that the calculations of the age of the universe based on this cosmology works out to be fairly close to our current scientific estimates—and “(Hinduism) is the only ancient religious tradition on the Earth which talks about the right time-scale”. Mentioning any of this, would, of course be quite contrary to the tone of the article. Rather than presenting the creation myth as a story and presenting the hidden elements of scientific truth, the article gives a reductive description, preceded by the phrase ‘Hindus believe’. (For more on how the Biblical creation myth is handled, please read page 176, chapter 16)

Let us see how one would present a section on Christian ‘Philosophy’ with the same approach as in the case of Hinduism.

Christianity:
Christians believe that all humans descend from one man and woman, called Adam and Eve and calculated the age of the world to be about 10,000 years. They believe also that the female Eve
was created from male Adam’s rib by God to be his wife (which is used to justify Christian attitudes towards women such as a historical denial of equal rights). Christians believe many contradictory things—for example, that an all-loving, forgiving God puts human beings in everlasting Hell, if they sin without repenting in this life. [Emphasis added]

This would be a similarly reductive account presenting ‘Christians’ as irrational, and failing to grasp the multiple levels of subtleties involved in understanding a religion. As we see in the description of Hinduism, this is precisely the approach of the Encarta article.

Despite a very rich philosophical tradition, the anthropological view dominates the article on Hinduism. Both the articles on Christianity and Islam, lead instead with the philosophical ideas. Apparently the broadness of Hindu philosophical ideas like, Vasudhaiva
Kutumbakam (the world is one family), and the ideas of religious pluralism (“many paths lead to God”) that continue to guide most Hindus, find no place in the Encarta article.

‘Gods’

Nowhere is the anthropological view more apparent than in the treatment of ‘Gods’. Firstly, an inadequate attempt is made to put the idea of ‘gods’ in proper perspective for a Western reader. The word ‘deva’ in Sanskrit, is less akin to the ‘God’ of Christianity, but more so to ‘angel’ (a power higher than man but lesser than ‘God’). Secondly, the concepts that ‘God’ is ‘unknowable’ and that different deities are thus representations of different aspects (nama-rupa) of ‘God’, is glossed over. The Encarta article also completely misses the concept of the Hindu trinity—that any Hindu child could recite—a key idea in the presentation of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva as creator, preserver and dissolver, and their female counterparts as three aspects of the One God. That the male and the female energies coexist in Indian thought and the idea of God as both male and female (at the same time being beyond gender) is also missed. Having skipped all the structure, the topic of ‘Gods’ is presented as a confusing ‘curio-shop’ of unrelated deities and sects, complete with sensational descriptions of blood and gore.

Hinduism:
Shiva embodies the apparently contradictory aspects of a god of ascetics and a god of the phallus. He is the deity of renouncers, particularly of the many Shaiva sects that imitate him: Kapalikas, who carry skulls to reenact the myth in which Shiva beheaded his father, the incestuous Brahma, and was condemned to carry the skull until he found release in Benares; Pashupatas, worshippers of Shiva Pashupati, ‘Lord of Beasts’; and Aghoris, ‘to whom nothing is horrible’, yogis who eat ordure or flesh in order to demonstrate their complete indifference to pleasure or pain. Shiva is also the deity whose phallus (linga) is the central shrine of all Shaiva temples and the personal shrine of all Shaiva householders; his priapism is said to have resulted in his castration and the subsequent worship of his severed member.

While ‘phallus’ is just one interpretation of ‘linga’ there are many others as well, notably ‘symbol’ for the divine ([as in] Lingyate anena iti lingam). Apparently the author, whose interests appear to have a limited focus, continues to find contradictions from that single point of view—missing both other common interpretations as well as the underlying symbolisms. A disproportionate interest in the dimension of esoteric ‘sects’, ‘phallus’, ‘skulls’, ‘flesh’ and ‘ordure’ dominates the article and we find that practices and aspects far more prevalent and relevant to contemporary times—like Yoga or Chakras, meditation or mantras, breath and Pranayama are practically absent in the article. (For more on depiction of Durga/Kali in the Encarta article, please read page 178 and 179, chapter 16)

As the section on ‘Indian Philosophy’ in Encarta states:

‘Most of the poems of the Veda are religious and tend to be about the activities of various gods. Yet some Vedic hymns and poems address philosophic themes . . . such as the henotheism that is key to much Hindu theology. Henotheism is the idea that one God takes many different forms, and that although individuals may worship several different gods and goddesses, they really revere but one Supreme Being.’ [Emphasis added]

Has the Encarta article on Hinduism lost all keys? While there is a passing mention of this concept in Encarta, it is, characteristically, watered down from the clearer statement above.

Hinduism:
In this way Hindus have been able to reconcile their Vedantic monism (see Vedanta) with their Vedic polytheism: All the individual Hindu gods (who are said to be saguna,‘with attributes’) are
subsumed under the godhead (nirguna,‘without attributes’), from which they all emanate. [Emphasis added]

Finally, let us see how the article describes Rama and Krishna, considered as incarnations of God (as Vishnu).
           
Hinduism:
Most popular by far are Rama (hero of the Ramayana) and Krishna (hero of the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata-Purana), both of whom are said to be avatars of Vishnu, although they were
originally human heroes. [Emphasis added]

The article appears to speak with the certainty of divine knowledge!

Let us see how a similar issue, the divinity of Jesus is treated in the article on Christianity:

Christianity:
The ultimate mystery of the universe, called by many different names in various religions, was called ‘Father’ in the sayings of Jesus, and Christians therefore call Jesus himself ‘Son of God.’ At the very least, there was in his language and life an intimacy with God and an immediacy of access to God, as well as the promise that, through all that Christ was and did, his followers might share in the life of the Father in heaven and might themselves become children of God.

We note both the subtlety of thought and the sensitivity of expression in description, versus the heavy-handed certainty by which the article on Hinduism speaks, of happenings and events further back in time than the historical Jesus. Is this certainty born out of knowledge of fact, or simply a disregard for the corresponding religious sentiment?

Read chapter 16 part 1 from page 169 to 180

Pdf of the book is available for free download here.


Who are our Devis and Devatas?

This is a developing thread that we promised to cover depending on the trajectory of the discussion. Well, the path of the debate has traversed important topics that touch BD, contemporary Hinduism, and other points relating to the integral unity within Hinduism, panentheism, and ultimately leading to this fundamental question:

Who really are our Devis and Devatas?

Are they symbolic of the multiple intelligences or powers of a single divine entity, or have totally separate existences, or is it something else?

This fascinating discussion was sparked by the post of a commentator who observed ISKCON devotees distributing copies of the Gita to visitors of the Shiva temple (outside its premises) in Atlanta, Georgia, USA during the Maha Shivaratri puja. 


ISKCON: Push Marketing?
Raj posted: Sunday March 10, 2013, Hindu Temple of Atlanta had special Mahasivaratri puja & events. The premises has separate temples for Shiva & Vishnu (Balaji). I was somewhat surprised to see ISKCON missionaries outside the Shiva temple stopping Shiva devotees, conversing and giving them free copies of Bhagavad Gita As It Is. That too, particularly on Mahasivaratri when there are more Shiva devotees visiting the temple. Given what is known about standard ISKCON teaching about Shiva, I had to wonder -from BD perspective-  if this is a form of Push Marketing & Charcoal Burning. Also, if there is some Difference Anxiety as well.

Partha responded:
"ISKCON devotees with their books make themselves available wherever Hindus or potential friends of Hindus gather. Here is an ISKCON article on Sivaratri observation. .... There are apparently some riders, but they seem to value the observation of the holy festival

Karthik adds:
"Earlier ISKON wouldnt even celebrate any other functions other than oned related to KRishna. I was told by an ISKON devote that One Krishna = 2 Ramas. Now Hanuman Jayanthi, Ram Navami etc is celebrated as well..."

Indrajit disagrees with Raj:
"Construing the free distribution of Gita outside a Shiva temple on the occasion of 'mahashivratri' as push marketing, is a misplaced conception. Yes,  Raj might be remotely right, had the epic were distributed free outside a church or mosque or place of worship of any other religion. Promoting Gita-awareness through such contribution outside a Hindu place of worship was more appropriate rather than 'push marketing..."

Ashok commented:
"...[unaware] that there was a tension in the minds of ISCON devotees about Krishna and other Gods until I read this post. Having spent all my formative years in India, I had not come across any such tensions in the minds of worshippers of the many Gods regarding claims of superiority.
I therefore googled ISCON and Shiva and was dismayed to read their agonising and convoluted logic to try to show Vishnu to be superior to Shiva. They seem to take Vishnu's saying in Gita that there is no difference between Me, Brahma and Shiva to mean that Vishnu is being patronising them. This is a novel concept for me!
For most 'Indians' both Gods are so, so far higher to them that they do not even think of a possible distinction. They would in fact be happy to accept a learned sage or a 'minor God' as described in the Gita as their guide and support.
  
As Rajiv has elaborated, there is an inherent need in those who grew up in the atmosphere of Abrahamic faiths to feel that they worship only the 'best', anything less somehow debases their faith. Hence the need to show Krishna as the Highest. Such a need is a alien concept for those who grew up in Dharmic traditions..."

Brahma cites a brief portion of Ashok's comment and expounds. We carry this with very little editing since this comment sets the agenda for the remainder of the discussion in this thread:
"It can be noted that aside from the obvious, that ISKCON's western members are from a western/Abrahamic background and hold those attitudes ("Our way is the superior path...") -- which of course is quite true... there is another layer here:

If you do your "purva paksha" on the the works of Sri-la-Sri Prabhupada, in his book on the Science of Self-Realization, page 117 he himself writes:

"There is a mis-conception that Krishna Consciousness represents the Hindu Religion." There is much more on that page. But the founder of ISKCON himself disavows Hinduism. Krishna consciousness is "universal and transcends sectarian designations." 

There is more on that page along those lines...

(Venkat provides a link to this)

This has been taken quite seriously since his day, by his devotees and plays out in these ridiculous "missionary" efforts to proselytize followers of any other Deities within Hinduism itself. Shiva in particular is sub-ordinated as the "supreme devotee." If you ask many ISKCON devotees "are you a Hindu." 85% of them will squirm and try to avoid using the "H" word.

It was largely a reaction to the on-going attempts toward "hegemony" of the Smarta/Advaita Vedanata of Sankara, with respect to Hinduism as a whole. It is an old polemic between Vaishnavism/Sankaran Vedanta. The Smarta Sampadaya/Advaita Vedanta is only one "family" within Santana Dharma. It is not the whole or the cream the end of the evolution of, etc Hindu tradition. It is just one Sampradaya among many.  Unfortunately Prabhupada could not seem to accept this on level terms. Since Smarta had opted to define Hinduism by their philosophy, he chose to denounce his roots in order not to be "digested" by latter day liberal "Smarta Sanatana Dharma"

The same issues that Rajiv is working to "solve" viz-a-viz Hinduism vs other religions, are at work inside Hinduism itself, where there is on-going "digestion" of original, very distinct, sampradayas and lineages by the modern, latter day liberal interpretations of Sanatana Dharma thru the lens of intellectual Mayavada Vedanta, and modern day Indian Hindu academics who are far removed from authentic understanding of, for example the true meaning of temple worship as described by the Agama scriptures... a movement that has been going on for decades aided and abetted once again, by our own swamis, Indian intellectuals and "Vedantists," who look down their noses at "sectarian" Hindus.

This has very sad side consequences... e.g. the Tamil "Dravidian" fanatic movement that seeks to divorce itself from all things Vedic or Sanskritic...and separate Saivism from Hinduism (a Dalit position that is extremely unhealthy for South Indian Saivism for which Tamil and Sanskrit are two legs of one being)

But [there] is another story where the very movement to "homogenize" Hinduism, by Hindus themselves, (mostly a social political effort working for, admittedly needed, solidarity in the face of Islam and Christianity)  has become an unwitting ally in the "breaking" process-- by stimulating reaction from those who resist being digested by the Smartas, taking it so far as to disown their heritage. Christians of course have capitalized big time on this "internal problem"  which, really should be seen as a minor discussion between siblings in the same family (Smarta/Vaishnava/Shaiva/Shakta). But they have used it as another tool in the divide and conquer strategy we know so well.

The scenario witnessed at the Atlanta temple is just one end result of this problem."

Rajiv responds to Brahma:
In this entire thread thus far, this post below has struck me as special for it goes deep into something about our tradition. I got interested because my forthcoming book deals with this extensively. In fact, this is the core issue being discussed.

Here is a bit of overview: Many western scholars starting with Hacker in the 1950s, followed by Indian scholars with Anantaand Rambachan as their leader, have claimed that there was no unified entity that may be designated as Hinduism. In particular they dismiss Vivekananda as a "Neo" Hindu who "manufactured" what is today called Hinduism...

The implication is that most of us modern Hindus are practicing something fake. The genuine thing according to them is not one religion or dharma or faith, but several separate ones that have irreconcilable mutual tensions and contradictions amongst them. Any attempt to unify them is inauthentic and politically motivated.

My findings are complex. The conclusion is not an easy one. I dont want to reduce my 300-page forthcoming book to a simplistic treatment. .... In the past 4 months, I have studied several dozen serious works from both sides of this debate, including several PhD dissertations, easily over 10,000 pages of scholarly writings. ....

.... there has definitely been a deep unity since ancient times that goes across the tensions, fights, etc. amongst them. I will leave it at that. "

Srinivas commented:
"Although Vivekananda's  experiences with west and standing up for Hinduism, is invaluable for Hindu history, it cannot be said that he represented all of Hinduism in his conversations with west. At least as far as I have read him, there is no common ground established by Vivekananda where Vaishnava and other Dharmic followers can identify themselves with his definition of Hinduism. This is the difference with BD.

BD doesnt force everybody to accept one Dharma stream as common but invites everybody to identify themselves with the main principles of: Independence from History, Integral unity, Decentralization and Non-translatability.

Vivekananda and many Shankara followers here suffer from difference anxiety. There is a hidden assumption that when one talks of Hinduism, it is implicit that it is Shankara's philosophy. ...The reason many people squirm at being called a Hindu is because of this implicit assumption in the context. The other part of implicit assumption of Hinduism is its nationalistic association to India. This of-course will not be palatable to non-Indian Dharmic followers.

The Hinduism of Vivekananda may not be palatable to many of us. But that doesn't mean there is no concept of Hinduism.

Any definition of Hinduism cannot deny the diversity and difference of Atman, central to Vaishnava philosophy.To be called Hindus, our common ground has to be the 4 main principles of BD (or equivalent ones like context sensitive theory by AK Ramanujan). Otherwise we are back to re-inventing the wheel.

Difference anxiety among us is evident here at the way ISKCON bashing happens from time to time. Why can't we accept ISKCON as one among us? ISKCON and its philosophy satisfy BD's criteria. Infact, Achintya-Bheda-Abheda, explained in BD is not very far from ISKCON / Chaitanya philosophy..."

Shaas responds:
"....instead of celebrating Shiva on Shiva`s night, ISKCON chooses to trying to convince everyone that they should worship some other Deva, etc.

ON the other hand, I feel that Hinduism is going really by the Church way, i.e. increasing incompatibility of different sects and ways to worship the Supreme - the Totality of Brahman.

First, Varnaashrama was rejected, then some "experts" want to streamline and correct the Vedic scriptures, and now different sects are starting to fight against each other.

.... [mutual respect] is missing in the approach of ISKCON as described in the incident of Shiva Ratri.

... In the Upanishads is written that - by all differences of Vishnu and Shiva, still, Vishnu is in the heart of Shiva and Shiva in the heart of Vishnu."
Srinivas responds:
"... the whole point is not whether Vaishnavas are correct or Shaivas are correct. That is an argument that'll last till Hinduism/Dharma exists. The question is whether Vaishnavas or Shaivas have an equal position in the table of Dharmic streams. Is it right to question their authenticity as a branch of Dharmic thought? 

....My concern was on the view that ISKCON is often treated as an outsider when their philosophy and practices are 100% Dharmic in nature and got through authentic Guru tradition. You may have differences with their worldview, but dont question their Dharmic authenticity. Other dharmic institutions have equally questionable practices if not more.  

.... Mutual respect within Dharmic streams is to be mastered before we are to successfully demand it from others."

Surya comments:
"Claiming that Shiva and Vishnu are the same is not necessary for Hindus and they do not suffer from cognitive dissonance when they do not conflate.  However, if an Advaitin says this, the intent is not digestion as you suggested but is a consequence of his metaphysical viewpoint.

Dharma traditions have their distinct differences, even incompatibilities in their metaphysics.  Being Different is very comfortable with those differences and readily acknowledges it.  The commonality within Dharma family and distinctness of the Dharma family from Abrahamic family is where Being Different focuses its efforts.  Distinctness between the families is seen along dimensions of history-centrism, integral unity, comfort with decentralization and self-organization, and distinct meaning of non-translatable Sanskrit words vs their nearest English or German equivalents.

Please see the following excerpt from Rajivji's paper in the International Journal of Hindu Studies.  

Integral Unity is Not Homogeneity 

Being Different's position is that multiple Dharma systems can each have integral unity and yet have different and even incompatible metaphysics. The fact that each has integrality and yet is distinct from the rest is akin to several different objects being yellow”that is, the common quality of yellowness gives a family resemblance without making all the yellow objects the same. 

...Criticism that Being Different somehow reduces all Indian belief systems into a single homogeneity is equivalent to an argument that by demonstrating the differences between Judaism and Christianity, one claims to have debunked their shared principle of prophetic revelation.  An integral unity, likewise, may be expressed through Madhyamika, Advaita, Visistadvaita, Tantra, Aurobindo and many other forms, each of which is distinct. Being Different goes to great lengths to explain that different Dharma systems disagree on many key points, yet each adheres to the common standard of integral unity proposed in the book


From his blog: Dharma and the new Pope
"history centrism" which leads the Abrahamic religions to claim that we can resolve the human condition only by following the lineage of prophets arising from the Middle East. All other teachings and practices are required to get reconciled with this special and peculiar history. By contrast, the dharmic traditions - Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism -- do not rely on history in the same absolutist and exclusive way. This dharmic flexibility has made a fundamental pluralism possible which cannot occur within the constraints of history centrism, at least as understood so far. ...
While I recognize that the centrality of revelation through history is a core value in the Abrahamic faiths, I would point out that not only does it cause problems for non-Abrahamic faiths, but among the Abrahamic traditions as well. Their respective rival claims cannot be reconciled as long as they cling to a literal account of the Middle Eastern past, an insistence that this past is absolutely determinative of religious truth.

Any issues with ISKON missionary efforts ?
However, they are still part of the Dharma family because they are not history centric, their metaphysics shows integral unity, they do not have an organized Church, and share Sanskrit words and their meanings with other Dharma traditions.
Conversion efforts are a symptom of intolerance, lack of mutual respect.  That is the only real issue.  where does that come from?  If this symptom is deep-rooted because some in ISKON are turning their tradition history centric, it may be signs of ISKON breaking away on a core dimension.
Interested in knowing what drives missionary efforts of ISKON.  Believing Krishna is the ultimate God is perfectly OK.  Issue is with telling others that is the only way."

Srinivas responds:
"Is conversion the real issue? What is the problem with conversion? Is ISKCON converting people in the same sense as Christianity? 

I would say, conversion is not the issue. Conversion via inducements and subterfuge is the issue. If anything ISKCON is inviting people to understand Krishna through direct dialogue and experience. Not via inducements. Isn't Advaita converting more people into its fold? Is this not via rational debate and/or yogic experience?
... Does an Advaitin or Shaivite not say that theirs is the only way? Why the double standards just for ISKCON?  Believing that theirs is the only way is not the problem. If you dont believe that yours is the only true way, what stops you from getting digested into the other side?...
Mutual respect does not come from abandoning your own faith or in diluting it to become acceptable to the other. As a Dharmic follower, I respect you not because you follow the same faith (Vaishnavite or Shaivite) as mine, but because:
  1. You and I are both Sat-Chid-Ananda nature.
  2. Antaryami in both of us is the same God.
Or I just cannot or have no reason to disrespect you because:
  1. Sadhana is across many Janmas
  2. Liberation is individual and internal, not collective or external.
  3. Context sensitive nature of what is Dharma, right/wrong.
In other words, mutual respect is natural for any Dharmic follower because of his/her inherent world view. Not because I pull my punches in saying mine is the only true way."

Surya's followup:
"... There are only two kinds of conversions: (1) conversion on one's own volition; (2) direct conversion through the influence of an external agent (person or organization).

Conversion as in (2) is an issue.  By "direct" I mean that the activity is specifically intended to convert by an external agent.

In other words, a PULL model is reasonable and acceptable.  A PUSH model is not.

.... On what basis can one distinguish between what is subterfuge and what is not?  Given that the claims are supernatural in nature, in the end it seems that it is all about convincing.  Should you leave this to the better rhetorical argument to win?

The act of direct conversion is wrong.  Whether ISKON or some other organization does it is not the point. ..

....it would be perfectly fine to distribute Gita by setting them in a booth and letting people come and pick them.  That way, people who choose to pray only to Shiva are not offended.  Thrusting a Gita into that person's hand is a PUSH activity.  That is what is wrong.  Not whether it is a Gita or a Bible.

.... One is free to believe or change one's beliefs on their own in a PULL activity.  One can believe that their way is the only way.  ... I was specifically referring to A telling B that A's way is the only right way when B holds a distinct set of beliefs.  This is a PUSH activity.  This is a violation of mutual respect.  Whether A is holding a Bible or Gita or....
Everyone should be free to believe that their beliefs are true.  However, they should refrain from rubbing their beliefs on others who do not hold the same beliefs. ...
Do these happen in Dharma?  Of course, just as crimes occasionally happen in a good society.  However, Dharmic society cannot accept institutionalizing such PUSH activities by legitimizing them. If you do not profess your faith to me, is that abandoning your faith?  If you do not PUSH your faith on me does it dilute your faith?  It is even OK for you to tell me why you hold your beliefs.  In the spirit of mutual respect, I will honor your right to hold your beliefs and as a willing friend listen to you.  However, it is a violation of mutual respect when you tell me that my beliefs are wrong.
...If ISKON agrees with those [], why do they have an urge to convert?  Because, ISKON says that the Antaryami is Krishna.

Just to be clear, you are free to believe Krishna and Shiva are the same but cannot require others to believe that..."

The next three comments are directly related to the topic, but not the immediate discussion between Surya and Srinivas. Rajiv responds to another post:
"....There are two levels at which a person can engage Hinduism. One is purely as a practitioner. For that you need not and probably should not survey all the schools, issues, debates, choices. Its like I am satisfied as a Windows user and need not become an expert on comparative operating systems. I know how my car works and need not learn auto engineering or details on every car. As a chef its enough for me to do a great job with my cuisine. I recommend Hindus to get a good guru and stick to that guidance. The second level is as a scholar wanting to debate Hinduism in its entirely in public forums - be it for sake of educational curriculum in schools or media portrayal or public policy or whatever. For this second kind of engagement I better work as hard to gain competence as a student who qualifies in medicine, law, engineering, etc. Problem is what people with level one involvement become opinionated as level two experts"

Vishal comments on the Devatas of Hinduism:
" Most Hindus regard different Devatas as forms or manifestations of the same Divinity. However, there has always been a minority within Hinduism who are sectarian minded and have attempted to prove that one Devata is superior to the other.

ISCKON and several similar Sampradayas believe that Krishna is superior even to Vishnu. In the middle ages, some Acharyas argued that Vishnu is the Supreme Deity and Shiva is not the Supreme Deity (e.g. Shri Vaishnavas) and vice versa. These debates have been restricted to a small minority of sectarian scholars. For most Hindus however, all these Forms of Divinity are worthy of reverence and are complementary.

...The Hindu objection to depiction of Hinduism as 'Polytheistic' in California textbooks during the controversy in 2005-2006 was very valid.

I do not see anything offensive in Hare Krishnas distributing the Gita on a Shivaratri day. In fact, the Gita has been adapted by all major Hindu traditions. There is a Shaivite version called the Ishvara Gita (in the Kurma Purana), the Devi Gita, the Ganesha Gita and so on - and it becomes very apparent that there are hundreds of verses common between these Gitas on one hand and the Bhagavad Gita on the other. In our local temple, it is very common to see Bhaktas chant Shaivite hymns in front of Murtis of Krishna and vice versa when we celebrate festivals. This puzzles Christian visitors, but most Hindus do not bat an eyelid when that happens. Yours truly also sang a Sanskrit Arati on Lord Shiva at a Hanuman Puja two weekends back at someone's home. "

Gene asks:
"...What ever happened to Enlightenment, of call it Perennial Samadhi, or the Turiya State of Consciousness?

Which branch of Hinduism, or which cult has the best track record in producing Enlightened Sages or men and women who achieved Cosmic  Consciousness.  Or doesn't this matter in the scheme of things Hindu?  "


We now resume the chain of discussion around mutual respect, Vivekananda, and ISKCON. Krishna Murthy agrees with Srinivas:
"....KruNvanto vishwamaaryam [Let us aryanise the
entire Universe] is the Vedic goal. 'SangacChadhwam' [Conflue] the Vedas ordain. That is, Just as rivers conflue (blend with one another, and become One), the Vedic injunction ordains to all those who follow the Arsha dharma is ipso facto one.

But this is the Uttara Paksha. Rajivji is still striving to make his Purvapaksha well-grounded. ... shows how lethargic the Hindu Society has become. Because it has been emaciated by the Western pattern and content of education in India. Even many speak that Hinduism is a
shanti-priya Dharna, Humbug! Hinduism does not preach cowardice. Saha veeryam karavaavahai. That is what we swear.

I wish god-speed in the mission Rajivji has undertaken; so that he may start Uttarapaksha. Uttarapaksha does not merely mean as the conclusive deduction as in logic, it also means one which answers all doubts and problems.

Rajiv comment: I have given my preliminary uttara paksha in BD in terms of the different qualities that ground dharma - i.e. such prnciples as adhyatma-vidya,
reincarnation-karma, etc... are responses to the corresponding Western attributes.

In my next book, though the main thrust is to topple a prevailing myth, and to reaffirm Swami Vivekananda, I will end with my further elaboration of what is dharma for the FUTURE. Thats my uttara paksha (response)."

Srinath disagrees with Srinivas on Vivekananda:
"It seems a rather extreme point point of view to suggest that Vivekananda did not represent all Hindus. Yes, perhaps he was an Advaitin as was Sri Ramakrishna, his guru. However, Adi Sankara himself advocated the Shanmata tradition in which Vishnu is one of the representations of Brahman, as is Devi as Sri Ramakrishna believed (the others are Shiva, Ganesha, Kartikeya/Shanmuga, and Surya). Therefore, for anyone who identifies themselves as an Advaitin or Smarta, Vaishnavism is not an issue at all. Yes, there is the issue that the definition of Atman is not exactly the same for an Advaitin and someone who follows Ramanujacharya or Madhavacharya ... I simply do not understand phrases like "people squirm at being called a Hindu is because of this implicit assumption," or a suggestion that "Vivekananda and many Shankara followers here suffer from difference anxiety." Of course, someone who is an Advaitin cannot be expected to preach the views of Ramananujacharya or Madhavacharya, but there is absolutely no difference anxiety here, and to suggest such is unfair and counter to the central ideas of Hinduism and in "Being Different.""

Srinivas' response to Srinath:
"This is factually incorrect. There are many a great debates among the followers of these three acharyas and the multiplicity of Atman is one of the core issues.
... The terminology used by Vivekananda to describe Hinduism is same as Advaita. Obviously other sects cannot accept it. Vivekananda did a seminal job in introducing Advaita to west. The problem here is he preached it as Hinduism and not just as Advaita. An Advaitin has every right to argue and stand up for the correctness of Advaita. So does a Ramanuja or a Madhvacharya follower. The issue here is conflating what is Advaita with what is an inclusive term of Hinduism....
The BD terminology however stands clear of this issue and I believe should be a lot more acceptable to Vaishnavites than what Vivekananda described as Hinduism"

Wadhwa agrees with Srinivas:
".... To have a conversation as Hindus or as fellow Dharmic followers, there are some common criteria that we need to agree upon.' 
I would like to draw your attention to the Rig Ved Mantra 1-164-46  which can be our watch-word and common criteria.  Its well known  sukti says Ekam Sad Vipra Bahudha Vadanti, i.e., God is One, but wise persons call him by different names. The same central thought of our tradition with regard to one divine existence having different attributes has been repeated  at innumerable places in various Vedic texts.  

.... Unless we come out of the age old mindset, we cannot
comprehend the distinctiveness and nuances of true Vedic tradition "

Rajiv comment: How does one then differentiate Brahman from Allah or Judeo-Christian notions of God and his commandments? Are they not the One God referenced above who is being called by some other name? If the answer is yes, then what is your problem with sameness? What is your problem with converting to those religions because (after all) they are about the same One God?

....  Clearly, I have known this business about one God called by many names, and one truth the wise call many different ways. If it were this simple, I would not waste many years developing the BD thesis. Despite so many months of close engagement with BD, I am afraid Wadhwa ji does not ..."

Wadhwa follows up:
"With reference to Rajivji's comments, may I draw his attention to my above post wherein I have said "Unless we come out of the age old mindset, we cannot comprehend the distinctiveness and nuances of true Vedic tradition ". It was this old mindset characterised by superiority/inferiority of a particular god which led to infighting in the past  between bhaktas of Shiv and Vishnu, between Ram Bhaktas and Krishna Bhaktas,etc. ...
It would be naive on any body's part to extend and overstretch the central theme of the Rig Ved - Mantra 1:164:46,  to abrahamic notions while ignoring the totality of 'Ekam Sad'. Various Vedic 'devies' and 'devatas' mentioned in the above mantra  have a functional name relating to different powers of the same divine existence.  These Vedic devatas enumerated in the mantra, such as, Indra (the supreme power), Mitra (the friend of all), Varuna (the most desirable one), Agni (the all knowing), Divya (the shiningone), etc.  are all giver of happiness and benefits to the whole world. The literal meaning of Devata is also one who is giver of benefits to all. Where is the  symmetry here with the anthropomorphism of the Biblical literature which teaches 'salvation only through Christ'?  There is a fundamental difference between the Vedic concept and the qualified monotheism of abrahamic faiths where we cannot dispense with an intermediary between man and God.  As against this in Hinduism a bhakta or a yogi can establish a direct relationship with the Supreme reality.   Rajivji has beautifully enumerated differences between dharmic and Judeo-Christian cosmologies  in a tabular form on page 112-113 of his book 'Being Different'. 
Further, I would like to add that despite differences between Acharyas of dualistic - non-dualistic schools, they were by and large unanimous on certain points like  omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence nature  of Vedic God.  How about the abrahamic God? It is said that he  resides at a particular abode called heaven like on 4th or 7th sky and moves wherever he likes. 
...I feel that it is a most important challenge for all dharmic traditions to study the tenets of Vedic thought and  philosophy with the right and original approach or else we will be taken for a ride by any one..."
 
Brahma[] responds to Wadhwa. The response is detailed and in-depth and is carried almost intact.

But it is not as simple as that.
"....  "devatas' ... a functional name relating to different powers of the same divine existence....." Agreed.
"Unless we come out of the age old mindset, we cannot comprehend the distinctiveness and nuances of true Vedic tradition " - But this cannot be done via reductionism.

These kinds of reductionist exegeses of Vedic thought are an attempt at translation of the non-translatable. And though we might openly say we are not seeking parity, this line of thought unwittingly does play into the whole minds set that seeks parity with Abrahamic monotheism
In understanding Vedic thought be careful about scientific reductionism, or the simple need to cope with complexity via generalities-- whatever. This plays to the "digestion" process whether that is the samkalpa behind the discourse or not. Because in one breath you have played into the hands of all those who call us Hindus the "superstitious masses." When the old lady cuts the chicken to invoke the powers of Mariamman, the grammata devata of her villages: something very, very real is happening. Various entities are are work in different levels. At a pure Vaishnava or Shiva temple, similar scenarios are playing out at a much higher level. Almost the entire discourse of today's Hindus has this huge hiatus of knowledge of the Agamas/Tantras... which are based on the Vedas... that's another discussion...

But the nexus between Vedic and Agamic thought is a key. Let us use an analogy to illustrate.

You, a human being, are a singular entity. If I were a small multi-cell bacterium, inside the body of Wadhwa a "little atma" I might discern certain changes in the greater environment and possibly infer higher intelligences at work and call them "humans" I might say, from my
limited scope of apprehension, as a singular bacterium, that Mr. Wadhwa was a "functional name relating to a power of the same divine existence." [Consider that the physical body of Wadhwa is in fact made up of 90% bacteria -- only 1 in 10 cells in your body are "human"] if I were a wise bacterium" I might even be willing to acknowledge that I was a part of the larger "Purusha" called "Wadhwa" and even perhaps that Wadhwa *is* a power of some even larger Divine Existence. So too are we all.  But that does not eliminate the reality of being a jiva. So, this bacterium needs to also acknowledge the existence of Wadhwa, an individual homo sapien, as a singular intelligent entity, functioning at a much higher level of existence. Wadhwa is no mere name for a functionality of a generalized "Divine One."

So say the obvious: We need to be careful not to, in one intellectual swipe, put all the Devatas into "exile" by inferring that their existences as singular entities functioning in higher lokas, is some how a mere "anthropomorphic projection," of our limited minds, and that the Devatas are mere names of functions of "one divine being." This sounds all very wise and has been the line of swamis talking to the west for decades, but frankly we are getting tired of hearing this decade after decade. It is politically correct as it parades as the wisdom which
overcomes the conflicts of sectarianism. With no disrespect: but this is incredibly naive. Just look at the world of nature around us as described above, just your own body is complex beyond your possible
conception.

Hinduism is a panentheism, not a pantheism. There is a difference. The latter is reductionism and easily supported by simplistic "Vedanta." But Vedic thought encompasses the diversity and complexity of existence. Agama/tantra (all the details of temple worship and practice, puja etc.)
implements that view in practice

There are in fact intelligent "entities" that function in higher lokas. Of course exactly how you want to "parse" out those realities on the religious landscape of homo sapiens, has a great deal of variation at the "low level" of sampradayas here in the bhuloka/intellectual sphere. (Is Ganesha the son of Siva i.e. a Maha Devata or is Ganesha a name for the the Supreme One?) Sorting that out is a challenge and this has unfortunately played out as "infighting in the past between bhaktas of Shiv and Vishnu. "

But just because little sister says "Daddy is the Boss!" and little brother says "Mommy the boss!" Does not mean we have to create a theory that the two parents don't exist... that they are "names for functions of the One Parent." It could be a great theory for a strategy to deal with sibling rivalry, and hence very politically correct because we are
all for Peace in the Home. But it is not the truth.

Is there One Brahman - yes of course; Are there many
"Parents/Divinities" yes that's also true.


This model that "the cosmos/company has a President and He/She does everything. And these other functioners, like CEO, Vice-president, Manager of operations, IT manager, Inventory Comptroller, Human Resources administrator... etc. are all just "anthropological
projections" when in fact the President does it all -- is very tidy and resolves apparent dichotomies, but only diminishes the Vedic tradition.

Rajiv comment: I enjoyed the vigor in this challenge, yet not flippant. I would welcome a piece that is not a reaction to others ..., and gives us a thesis on who are the devatas." 

JCP responds:
"Brahma..[] ji has brilliantly removed many cobwebs of misunderstanding in this mail. So, not only are Sanskrit terms non-translatable, so are Vedic views too non-translatable. ... However, the quote "Almost the entire discourse of today's Hindus has this huge hiatus of knowledge of theAgamas/Tantras... which are based on theVedas... that's another discussion..." has tantalizingly been left for another discussion. We are all aware of the "huge hiatus' in the knowledge & practice of Hinduism & I could not resist the temptation to seek swami ji's views on this subject."

RoyalDecor comments:
"I agree with the clarity given by swamiji.Though there is no scientific evidence on the existence of devis and devatas,the present day hinduism stands on their existence and worship.It is a subject which can be understood when one interacts with a person who has seen devatas( thru 3rd eye).There are variety of devatas who exist in another plane and help the humans who pray to them in overcoming earthly problems. Each devata is a pocket of cosmic energy acting independently but drawing power from the same SOURCE.They are like generators having different power rating.Some times they act in union generating higher power.Broadly we can group them as
1) Pitru devatas.( ancestors )
2)Swamis and saints after their mortal death( Eg Raghavendra Swami, Shirdi Sainath,etc)
3)Devatas as described in puranas.
4)Avatars like Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Anjaneya etc
5)Devatas with multiple hands and heads stationed at the various chakras.
6)Elements like vayu (air),varuna(water) and agni and heavenly bodies.
other divine energies like Yakshas, Gandharvas,Kinneras and Kimpurushas are mentioned in our books..
When a human prays a particular devata he/she solves the problem of his/her devotee as per his/her capacity and the person has to approach another devata for a different ailment.It is like a patient visiting a cardiologist, nephrologist or an oncologist.Faith in the result is the only evidence on the performance of worship of devatas.
What happens when one doesnt believe in god or doesnt pray to a diety.Nothing. Life will be smooth but when bumps come he may not have energy to lift from his fall.All i can say is devatas do exist, doing a thankless job .Without a proper guide hindu scriptures may convey a distorted meaning, hence vedic knowledge was kept beyond the reach of a common man."


RMF Summary: Week of March 5 - 11, 2012

March 5
Today's 2 examples of digestion under way...
Rajiv Malhotra posts:
"Example 1
I wanted to say one thing more about Being Different: I am delighted that Sri Aurobindo is so frequently cited there, and find your work to be firmly in his tradition (in modern India, none is greater). ... I could not quite cognitively defend your (and Bhartrhari's, Abhinava's) thesis that (as Raja Rao put it to me once), "the essence of each thing is its [Sanskrit] name vibrating in the absolute."  On the other hand, as a meditator I perform that premise every day when I chant "Om."
Finally, I want to nominate the Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS) to the Infinity Foundation for possible support of efforts to expand the representation of Indian images. ...ARAS is a Jungian instituton with roots in the Eranos conferences in the 1930s and after.  See aras.org if this is of interest.
Rajiv comment: Jung's Eranos conferences produced some of the greatest digestors on the past century – including Joseph Campbell, Eliade, Paul Tillich, etc. Now the above scholar who has practiced sadhana in Auroville is wanting funds from Infinity, to support work by his wife that would remap his mining of Sri Aurobindo for 25 years into western univeralism. He also told me with [pride] that his son is going for a phd under a prominent Indian scholar of religion in Florida, and how under her guidance all the dharma he learned will get "harmonized" with western thought. That scholar in Florida is well known for promoting sameness , digestion, Aryan theory, etc.  She is also popular at temples where she goes in sari with heavy jewelry and talks about the greatness of Hinduism. Hates me for calling her duplicity…

Example 2: Read the Patheos.com comment discussion on my book.... Read onereview by Brianne Donaldson...
See the comments after her review. These explain how she as head of dharma studies at a prominent university is in fact on a mining expedition to help further plagiarism. Her role in digestion is to promote whitehead who digested abhidharma Buddhism into his own repackaged versions, and to erase the dharmic sources. Ironically, she then uses Whitehead to criticize BD. Pls read and participate there."

Margaret posts:
"....I understand well how digestion works, thanks for your concrete examples and I am also reading your book  BD. I wonder who is the Florida scholar ....  Although India  is not my native land, I learn so much about how mental, universalism digestive scholarly colonization continues in mining expeditions of indigenous cultures" 


Jayakumar shares his response to Brianne at Patheos:
"... The reviewer Brianne Donaldson is commenting on a narrow portion of a several-hundred page book.

Winning and Dominating are important for the West.  Dharma is too subtle and is not encumbered by such needs.  Openness, friendliness, originality and expertise by dharma practitioners have been exploited in well-honed and subtle ways.  On the other extreme, Universities in India are out of touch of indigenous thought and engaged in mimicry of the West.  Genuine ashrams in India which represent the tenor of age-old discourses, techniques and knowledge embodiments are neither funded by the State nor by corporations nor by universities.  These ashrams and their living practitioners live and die on a daily basis without much ado.  So who is to protect such time-tested critical knowledge-bases?


Malhotra isn't advocating cessation of dialog or collaborations.  he is merely stating motivations and intentions in Western Scholarship and collaborations and demonstrating that with real data. Nothing should stop Claremont Lincoln University from pursuing what they do.  Cross-fertilization is between equals.  Dharma has a long way to go until it gains as stature equal to the West.  Until then, it will only be a good 'subject' to study, dharma will be '˜cool'.

Reviewer Brianne is concerned about some perceived social inadequacies in India [gay taboo, dearth of female Indian voices].  This is based on a flawed logic that social problems in a country are a direct result of its religious or spiritual worldviews.  However, addressing India's social or cultural problems is not Rajiv thesis - just as there is no requirement that every study of America MUST focus on its racism and other problems.  Another implication of this stated concern is that the West either appoints itself as the solver of social problems in other countries, or has the authority to hold accountable speakers from those countries for those problems.  Do US school shootings, drug abuse, or teenage pregnancies invalidate the Principle of Liberty? The West has done a superb job of separating abhorrent practices (like slavery) from Religion or State by stating them as 'topical' problems. Why does the west get to set the agenda of what constitutes 'topics of interest' about India - is this not itself a sign of Western Universalism?


There is no denying that Rajiv Malhotra's Being Different raises questions that can make many uncomfortable.  For example:



Is a Sannyasi same as a Saint?  Is Iswara same as God?  Is itihasa same has history?  Is lack of well-chronicled linear history same as lack of definiteness of discourse or continuity and originality of thought?  Can a History of the 'Other' written by the West be considered as True History?  Does an assertion self-identity by other traditions imply cessation of dialog and cross-pollination?  Can a scholar of Jainism (regardless of nationality) be the same as a Jain?  Does a Professor of Asia Studies have the same authority to speak for Hinduism as a Hindu Sannyasi?  Is an article written by a Christian about Hinduism appearing in high school text books same as a similar article written by a Hindu?  Does a Western scientist studying the mind of Buddhist have the same authority to speak about advanced states of consciousness as the Buddhist 'subject' himself or herself?  Is the Whitehead Research Project in reality another Dharma Mining Project?  What are the criteria that must be satisfied in order for a Dharma Traditions Initiative in a US University to work in favor of those same traditions?  Who should control discourse - the perceiver or the perceived?  Some answers are clear, while others may take some time to develop.

.....
I am surprised that the reviewer saw in Rajiv's book a '˜quest to divide the world into West and East. ...


I found the title of Brianne's review interesting.  Can the West wear any less of its Westernized spectacles than Indians any less their Indianized spectacles?  It would be an ideal world where none of us had spectacles.  The problem is that even the Indian wears Westernized Spectacles making the scales very tilted!  This is where Rajiv's work has its greatest impact.

Perhaps in the Reviewer is an earnest struggle to connect the West with a more holistic dharma world-view.  I've noticed and I do applaud the reviewer Brianne Donaldson for her active non-violent championing of animal rights such sensitivity is expected of Jains and those who claim to represent dharma traditions.  I hope comments on this website will serve to improve her dissertation." 

March 5
Interfaith dialogue and history-centrism
Surya posts:
"Readers of BD have a clear understanding of how history-centrism is an unlikely candidate in an interfaith effort.

BD makes it amply clear that history-centrism disables a religion from showing mutual respect.  Let us be clear, though.  No one is saying that followers of history-centric religions are bound to take up violence or become terrorists.  Large majority can and will show civility and political correctness but the underlying incompatibility engendered by history-centrism cannot be mitigated.

Rajiv Malhotra makes a dire pronouncement in the introduction of BD: "I regard this history-fixation as the major difference between Dharmic and Judeo-Christian paths and as a problem which can breed untold psychological, religious, and social conflicts."

Inter-faith ministers and liberal Christians are criticizing Rajiv Malhotra of unfairly painting all Judeo-Christians as being incapable of showing mutual respect.  They cite as examples some of the inter-faith efforts championed by Christians.  BD does not buy this picture of amity at face value.  BD takes a step further and challenges: If there is genuine mutual respect shown by followers of Judeo-Christian paths, it is possible only on fringes since all mainstream Christian denominations believe in the Nicene creed.  Nicene creed is tied inseparably to history and lays the foundation of exclusivity.

Unfortunately, there are reasons why Nicene creed or the essence of history-centrism in Christian dogma cannot be shed.

For example:  

Bible tells us that Jesus forgave other people's sins.  There are tremendous immoral implications associated with the idea of forgiving other people's sins.

Christian apologist C.S.Lewis took a hard look at vicarious atonement and made rather harsh observations: "You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God."   

C.S. Lewis personally resolved this moral dilemma by choosing that Jesus must be the Son of God.  Clearly, this is a choice and not a logical deduction.  Unfortunately, such a choice made on the account of history automatically negates all other religions.  

The following excerpt from "Mere Christianity" in which C. S. Lewis displays his horror at the notion of taking away the responsibility of someone else's sin (vicarious redemption):..."

March 5 
Book Review of Breaking India
Book Review of Breaking India has appeared in Swami Dayananda Saraswathi's Arsha Vidya Newsletter dated Feb 2012. You can see in the below mentioned link ...

March 5
Church role in Kudankulam protests merits wider probe
Ganesh posts:
"Sri Rajiv Malhotra's and Aravindan Neelakandan's book Breaking India mentioned in this prominent news article related to Church role in Kudankulam

The crackdown on four non-governmental organisations on the charge that they diverted foreign funds intended for social development activities to the anti-nuclear protests in Kudankulam has focussed the spotlight on the activities of church-based NGOs in southern Tamil Nadu.
On Tuesday, the Union Home Secretary announced that the bank accounts of four NGOs had been frozen after it was found that they had been diverting funds received from overseas donors to the anti-nuclear protests. Two of the cases have been registered by the CBI, and the two others by the Crime Branch of the Tamil Nadu police.
The crackdown comes barely days after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh went public with the charge that US non-governmental organisations were behind the agitation, which has stalled work on the nuclear plant in power-starved Tamil Nadu...."

Rajiv Malhotra shares a link:
"4 NGOs behind N-plant stir got Rs 36 crore from abroad"

March 7

Debate on BEING DIFFERENT at Patheos.com ignites - please join
Lower down the page, please read the reviews AND THE COMMENTS IN RESPONSE. Some of the threads are very insightful. These debate show what you are likely to face when you go outside the comfort zone of a group like this, and face western chauvinism that is often well disguised as "liberal Christianity", "New Thought", "Humanism" and the like.

"Confessions of a Western Universalist" by Carl Gregg  is a good place to start. The variety of comments at its end are good responses to this scholar's defense of Christianity and his critique of BD.

Read the patronizing piece by one of the 50 most influential rabbis, titled, "The gift of difference"  and then the comment below.

The Associate Dean of Religious Life at USC gives his "Response to Being Different" and it has some good rejoinders below..."

March 7
Civilizations of the forest and desert
Please read Rajivji's new blog post at Patheos - from Chapter 4: Order and Chaos - Dharmic Forest and Judeo-Christian Desert:
A quick look at world cultures and civilizations reveals how profoundly the geography and the human response to it affected those cultures. ... Since all civilizations have tried to answer such existential questions as who we are, why we are here, what the nature of the Divine and the cosmos are etc., why are some Indian answers so markedly different from the Abrahamic ones? more>
The poster image is also available for sharing on my Facebook:

Rajiv comment: I wish to thank Raj who has worked many iterations privately with me to develop the wonderful images contrasting desert/forest which I am using in my blog. He is proving to be a solid worker with a focus on visuals and presentation of the serious ideas in an accessible manner. Please stare at the image he has done and then re-read the blog, and then read chapter 4.

March 8
Analysis of History-Centrism: blog
shivadeepa posts:
This is a landing page for ongoing research work that attempts to model History-Centric Thought Systems (HCTS), the nature of its membership and how it is likely to interact with thought systems that are not history-centric, as well as its impact on cultural diversity...

Rajiv comment: This is the kind of scholar I have hoped to discover through my writings and inspire. He has immersed himself into the history centrism thesis, then emerged with his own creative manthana based on it. He proposes novel ways
of looking at it. All the blogs listed on the right margin are the product of original hard work and worth reading. My thanks go to him.


March 9
One 'Western Universalist runs away from debate
Carl Gregg started with great confidence that he had blown my thesis apart. But the responses and comments to him were very solid. After he failed to deal with them using facts and reason, he resorted to quoting what Nussbaum wrote about me back in 2006/7 - unrelated to anything to do with BD. Then someone pointed out the rejoinders given to Nussbaum's statements (which she refuses to debate publicly), and how Gregg was being a loser by resorting to such an "amendment".

So finally, Gregg asked the web site to stop accepting any comments for his blog. Just like Vijay Prashad many years ago ran away after debating me on OutlookIndia.com (the posts are still available in the archive), Gregg has chosen to run away.

The archive of back and forth comments on his thread is extremely educational, because many westerners have similar ideas as Gregg that dont stand scrutiny. For example, they tend to say:
  1. Similar mysticism has also existed in Christianity. To which I point out that (1) those rare mystics were persecuted by the church for 2 millennia, and (2) it was recent dharma influence upon the west that led uturners to look for similar resources in western traditions, often with great exaggeration.
  2. That I am ill informed about the bible, to which I ask for specifics and then give my rejoinders. (The assumption is that most of us will either get scared and run away or turn abusive, both of which are unfortunately common responses from Hindus.)
  3. That Christianity has evolved, ironically by virtue of those theologians who have digested dharma into Christianity - Wilber, Berry, Swimme, Teilhard, Ryan, Panikkar, Bede, Keating, Teasdale....) Being a Christian Centering Prayer follower, he was unable to respond to my explanation of the history of how this got appropriated from Maharishi's TM via Bede to Teasdale to Keating. (My smoking gun is an audio recording of a talk at Maharishi Univ given by Keating himself thanking them for teaching his monks how to meditate. Likewise his citing Wilber's Integral Christianity was a great opening for a response...."

Kaajal comments:
"I'm amazed though not surprised at the sheer hubris of Carl Gregg. Just another reminder of what we are up against- the complete unwillingness of Western scholars to attribute to Hindusim and other Dharma traditions, what they have surreptitiously taken (digested) from India without any grace whatsoever to give credit where it is due. The arguments posted below Gregg's review were solid and well reasoned, and when he realized that he couldn't stand up to this knowledgeable lot, he did what bullies usually do - pulled in the other bullies,
pulled rank by announcing their titles and finally closed down the very forum where such an animated discussion was taking place!...."


March 9
Re blog "Confessions of a Western Universalist"
Sumant shares: Dear Sir/Madam, I write in to you regarding the unfair and unilateral closure of the Comments section in Carl Gregg's blog *"Confessions of a Western ...

March 10

Review of 'Being Different' authored by Shashi Tiwari
Shashi posts: "Please find attached the review ofBeing Different, authored by me which is  now published in  " Sanskrit Vimarsh" , Journal of Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, ,Deemed University, Under Ministry of Human Resource Development, New Delhi; Vol 6, year 2012 ( A special edition brought out for the 15th World Sanskrit Conference, Jan 2012, New Delhi). Reference of publication should be mentioned if referred."

March 10
Western Gurus of Non-dualism........
Mrithak posts: " ... Perhaps you are already aware of these western gurus of non-dualism as they
should perfectly fit your U-turn theory.

http://www.adyashanti.org/
http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=mukti_bio
http://www.thechocolatebuddha.org/event/greg-marian-seattle-satsang/
.....

These people come about once a year in the town where I reside...."

Rajiv responds:
"Yes I have a whole laundry list of such persons and it keeps
growing faster than I can keep up.

The move to accuse Indian gurus went hand in hand with installing new white gurus. Some examples:
1) Yogi Amrit Desai was suddenly replaced by his all-white closest followers whom he had trusted with legal control of everything. So Kripalu Center now run by these white gurus is a new age spa. In fact, even Amrit Desai's own tapes,
books are copyright owned by Kripalu and not him.
2) Likewise after Osho died it was found that 20 Western disciples had control over the Bahamas trust that owned all the property worldwide. This includes billions of dollars worth of real estate, all intellectual property and his brand name. I will show how large this scam has been.

... I saw a line of Indian women in the 1990s in queue to touch the feet of Eckhart Tolle. At that time he was a non entity claiming the same experience as Ramana Maharishi. He used to read the Indian gurus and then started to become one." 

subra posts:
Science and Nonduality (SAND) 2012 conferences in California and Netherlands

List of sponsors includes California Inst. Of Integral Studies (of Angana Chatterji fame, apart from being a U-turner), Inst of Noetic Sciences, ... that are in listed in Rajiv ji's talk at Lady Sri Ram College [below]
(Subra: ok, this is an amazing and important 2+ hour video to watch and learn: U-turns and western appropriation and digestion of Dharmic knowledge system)


Rajiv comment:
That conference and dozens like it every year are filled with
speakers who are eminent digestors. I have little chance of getting in as speaker, because my talk would offer evidence they dont want to hear, except in such diluted form as to serve their purpose to show such critiques as false.

March 10
Swami Vivekananda on history centrism
Rajiv Malhotra shares:
"The sublimity of the law propounded by Ramayana or Bharata does not depend upon the truth of any personality like Rama or Krishna, and one can even hold that such personages never lived, and at the same time take those writings as high authorities in respect of the grand ideas which they place before mankind. Our philosophy does not depend upon any personality for its truth. Thus Krishna did not teach anything new or original to the world, nor does Ramayana profess anything which is not contained in the Scriptures. It is to be noted that Christianity cannot stand without Christ, Mohammedanism without Mohammed, and Buddhism without Buddha [This is not true of Buddhism - Rajiv], but Hinduism stands independent of any man, and for the purpose of estimating the philosophical truth contained in any Purana, we need not consider the question whether the personages treated of therein were really material men or were fictitious characters. .....Is it necessary that a demon with ten heads (Dashamukha) should have actually lived as stated in the Ramayana? It is the representation of some truth which deserves to be studied, apart from the question whether Dashamukha was a real or fictitious character. You can now depict Krishna in a still more attractive manner, and the description depends upon the sublimity of your ideal, but there stands the grand philosophy contained in the Puranas."
(Collected Works, vol. 5,204-208)"
 

Desh responds:
"As much as I hold Swami Vivekananda high in my esteem - I would disagree that Krishna didn't offer anything new.  As I see it, Krishna can be credited with some pathbreaking work in Spirituality:
  1. Chhandogopnishad is one of the first two of the Upanishads.  It talks of Krishna (Devaki-nandan Krishna) in the past.  It is also clear that Upanishads were a clear break in philosophical underpinning and even discourse from the Vedas (Rig, Sam and Yajur - since he talks of only these 3). ....
  2. ...
  3. ...
  4. Lastly, apart from Shiva, I am not aware of many Masters who have LIVED all the Yogas as Krishna did.  Shiva and Krishna demo'ed the entire gamut of Yogic science like hardly anyone else has before or after.  In that, they are unique.
However, Swami Vivekananda does put it right elsewhere where he says - Gita is not great because Krishna spoke it, rather Krishna is great because he gave Gita.  Very well put."

Rajiv comment: The above misses Swami Vivekananda's point. SV does not say that Krishna gave no new interpretation or teaching. New discovery or new teaching of prior reality does not make it history centric. BD explains that Newton or Einstein did not create new reality, merely discovered what was already there. The claim made for Jesus is different - his virgin birth and crucifixion create a possibility for salvation which was preciously non-existent. Krishna does not cause moksha to become possible; it was always there - thats why its called sanatana dharma. Swami Vivekananda understands history centrism. The above comment appears not to do so."

 
March 11 
An experiment with Western Daoists in context of BD
Dvai shares: 
"As a student of Daoism (and Taiji Chuan and Nei Gong), I participate in an on-line Daoist forum titled "The Tao Bums"). This forum has an eclectic mix of predominantly western Daoists, Buddhists, students of Tantra and Vedanta. 

The recurring common denominator is typically that of a mid-to-late 20s or early thirties Westerner who has "given up" his/her judeo-christian upbringing and latched on to Daoist practices or Buddhism or Tantra or Vedanta or Yoga (often a mixture of many). The common theme is in "Universal" spirituality and a rampant attempt at making everything "same"...eliminating the differences, under the pretext of "taking the best of all worlds and discarding the worst".

I posted a synopsis of BD with a call for seekers to read and reflect on the contents and ideas presented in the book and suggested that while the exercise might be painful for many, it would, at the end make each seeker see his/her chosen system in clearer light and help identify various "psychoses" they have inherited/internalized and unknowingly apply to the system thereof.

It has been an interesting exercise and BD has helped me aritculate what I have been struggling to express (even completely understand) for the past 10 odd years.

The reactions were as I had expected (vehement opposition to the idea of BD without the readers even having read the book). A couple of individuals were highly receptive and here are some excerpts from their posts..."

March 11
Posted comment on Brianne Davidson's Review
Surya shares: Brianne Donaldson wrote: "In concrete ways, many of these thinkers are purva paksha incarnate, living between nationalities, philosophical traditions, and...