Relationship between yoga and Sanatana Hindu dharma

Rajiv Malhotra's dialogue with Dr. H. R. Nagendra, President VYASA, Bangalore

Rajiv Malhotra: Important to watch till the end. My goal was to debate the relationship between yoga and Sanatana Hindu dharma. 

Notice how the argument proceeds gradually and systematically. In the end, he is fully in agreement with me that yoga (except for very superficial benefits) requires full compliance with Vedic metaphysics, lifestyle, processes.

This is one of the most consequential videos I have done with the masters, because earlier Dr Nagendra's position publicly was in line with that of Jaggi Vasudeva and some others - i.e. that yoga is unrelated to Hinduism.

Given Dr Nagendra's powerful status as the official head of GOI's yoga movement, this switch in a 1.2 hour discussion is extremely important.

Why Integral Unity and Not Synthetic Unity?

This is post devoted to a single thread on this topic. A very interesting discussion.
 
February 21

Chapter 3: Why Integral Unity And Not Synthetic Unity Surya comments: Without synthetic unity there is no God/Man separation Without God/Man separation there is no need for prophet to access truth Without prophet to access truth there is no truth based on history Without truth based on history there is no exclusive access to truth Without exclusive access to truth there is no religious intolerance Without religious intolerance there is mutual respect With mutual respect there is no religious violence

February 22

BD Chapter 3: Integral Unity vs. Synthetic Unity Surya posts: Dharmic faiths = Integral Unity --------------------------------------- Integral unity means ultimately ONLY the whole exists; the parts that make up the whole have but a RELATIVE existence. The whole is independent and indivisible. Creation is not separate from God. Since the divine manifests itself as the cosmos, the entire cosmos is intelligent and ultimately one. God is not merely the creator (the external force) of the world; God IS the world. ...Integral unity can be discovered and experienced through spiritual practices. Dharmic notion of integral unity is summarized in chapter seven of Bhagavad Gita. Long before the Gita, Vedas described only one Ultimate Reality, with many layers and levels. There is no shift in the Scriptures from polytheism to monotheism as some Western scholars claim. Abrahamic faiths = Synthetic Unity -------------------------------------------- Synthetic unity starts with parts that EXIST separately from one another. There is one unique event, the creation, that is separate from its creator and before which there was nothing. Physical and non-physical entities ultimately have their own independent existence, linked only externally by divine fiat. There are inherently separate entities: God and Creation, God and Human, body and mind, spirit and matter etc., ." Does the knowledge and concept of integral unity guide our views and policy for rural development ?   .... Dr. Kamal's question is quite pertinent, particularly considering that his institute in involved in Holistic research for rural development..." Karthik responds: "I feel this knowldge was addressed when Gandhiji called for "production by the masses instead of mass production" . EF SChaumacher, an Econimist in 60s revived this with his "Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered" and his reference to Buddhist Economics. A reasonable write up on this is in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_economics. THis could be well applicable to Hindu Economics as well. .."  Surya responds: "Integral Unity should not be confused with a centralized, monolithic system.  Forcing such a top-down hierarchy is indeed antithetical to Dharmic traditions.  Such a forced unity is synthetical in nature.  Thus, mass production is a synthetically forced unity. Schumacher talks about how high economic efficiency can be wasteful in certain natural resources even though it is the least cost or most economical approach.  Mass production seeks to replace human capital with other less expensive resources.  In the end, it ignores the human element and the human need for a respectable livelihood: ... The notion of cottage industry advocated by Gandhiji was founded on the principle of "small is beautiful - economic way where people matter".   ... The dilemma that arises is:  Economics where people matter is unstable - it is an ideal that is a peak of the mountain; one can easily slip off this peak when exploited.  Economics where profits matter is stable - it is at the bottom of the valley of ideals but it is very stable; difficult to exploit you here. I will leave with a question:  Will the growth of Dharmic traditions bring greater stability at the top?  Or should we give up and accept as fact that the bottom of the valley is the only stable economic state?"

Ram comments:
"One of the overlooked advantages of the decentralized dharmic spiritual system is extreme resistance to outside attempts to destroy it, such as moves by conquerors to wipe out the system.

The strength of the centralized authoritarianism like Christianity or Islam is its clear lines of authority, organization internally, its leadership class of highly trained priests, its education system and its ability to act like a unit against threats. That is also its weakness, because the centralized system works well only when it is protected by the state. If the state is conquered by an outside group or a new political entity, the centralized authoritarian group loses its protection and can easily be shattered.

....
Look at how the Russian communists crushed the Eastern Orthodox church after the Russian Revolution as an example. .... So in a single generation the Eastern Orthodox was wiped out, and no new generations grew up within that system.
...
In contrast the dharmic systems like Hinduism are apparently designed for the long term, to be able to resist immense pressure from the outside. Hinduism does not depend on the patronage or protection of the state and can exist strongly even if the state is hostile. ... They can choose their own spiritual path, their own ish devta, without permission or approval from any organized group.

When the Muslims invaded India they made enormous attempts to wipe out Hinduism and convert all to Islam, by force if necessary. ...

This went on in various forms for hundreds of years, but yet at the end of the Moghul era in India less than 10 percent of the Indians had been converted to Islam. In most other countries they had conquered, the Muslims quickly achieved conversion rates of over 75%, and in some places like Iran and Iraq they hit close to 100%.  In India the only way to wipe out Hinduism was to wipe out the Hindus physically, which was foolish.

.....
I understand that Buddhists has also proved very resistant to destruction or conversion, because of the same decentralized system that has the individual free to pursue his connection with the divine without intermediaries, institutions or permission from authoritarian structures.

We believe that the Hindu rishis and swamis who wandered the world thousands of years ago made some conclusions that we are still benefitting from today. Religions rise and fall over time, depending on the nature of their structure and change in circumstances. ...  A system that is fixed and attached to the norms of a particular culture in historical time will shatter when that culture changes and moves on.

So those rishis and swamis developed a system that would be flexible and adaptable to change, that would not be dependent on centralized authoritarian structures, that could be practiced without dependence on external instututions or priests, that could  be practiced secretly or at home, that offered freedom of choice as opposed to a fixed menu, that allowed members to function at their own level of development, that was based on firm and defensible philosophical principles, that allowed and welcomed new methods of worship and religious systems, that was egalitarian and non sexist, non racist, respectful towards other systems, respectful to the environment and all living beings....
That is the heritage of Hindus, one which we neglect at our peril." 

Arjunshakti responds:
"Its true that Hinduism is resilient but lets not forget that Hindus in the past did also stand their ground militarily especially during Islamic periods.Theres many myths that have been created to promote that hindus were just passive were slaves for a thousand years but still made it through.This is the reason why sometimes even good intentioned Hindus think that its ok we dont have to stand our ground because we survived in the past so we will continue to survive but thats not the truth or the reality.."

struth91 adds:
"...The core takeaway of Chapter 3 is in the contrasting attitudes towards Science and Reason in the respective societies. Hebraism and Hellenism coming together to create the artificial entity known as 'Western Civilization' was always a force-fit.

It is ironical that Matthew Arnold used 'Hebraism' as his term for Christian Biblical heritage and moralistic worldview that contrasted with Science - when the original Hebraic religion (Judaism) was and is perhaps less dogma-driven than is Christianity, resulting in a more positive attitude towards Science.

See this article for a Jewish viewpoint on why Judaism 'embraces Science' far more so than does Christianity:.

Each one of the three points that the Rabbi makes for Judaism, holds true to a much larger extent for Hinduism (& Dharmic religions in general)..." 

Surya comments:
"...applied to evolving proper policy for development.

For clarity, I will identify my position: Followers of Dharmic traditions find comfort in a self-organizing socio-economic system versus followers of Abrahamic faiths who will find comfort in a highly organized, centrally commanded socio-economic system.  Advantage for followers of Dharmic traditions is that they are comfortable will both forms - they can choose either forms and be comfortable as we see in India.  Followers of Abrahamic faiths are uncomfortable with self-organized systems.

Underlying premise is that the faith system of a follower defines his/her zone of comfort and hence is a major driver of choices he/she makes for the system. 

Reasoning with BD concepts is as follows:

1) Chaos vs. Order

______________

Comfort with chaos implies that Dharmic followers are open to a socio-economic system which is self-organizing in nature and evolves to meet the specific needs of the society.

...

For example, Mass production by cotton mills is highly structured, centralized, and driven centrally by profit motive (economic efficiency) as opposed to handloom industry that is organized around societal needs (economically suboptimal but caters to the human needs of large number of artisans)."

Karthik responds:
"... Just by coincidence... they remind me somewhat of these five principles:

1. The importance of real freedoms in the assessment of a person's advantage
2. Individual differences in the ability to transform resources into valuable activities
3. The multi-variate nature of activities giving rise to happiness
4. A balance of materialistic and nonmaterialistic factors in evaluating human welfare
5. Concern for the distribution of opportunities within society

Guess what those five principles are? They're known collectively as the basis of what is called "Capabilities Approach". Amartya Sen is credited with having "developed" these ideas (all by his own sweet self!) in the 1980s. The "Capabilities Approach" as applied to other aspects of society is a recurrent theme in the writings of another vaunted professor of "Ethics", Martha Nussbaum.

Easy to see what happened here, no? First, Amartya Sen, Martha Nussbaum et al pile onto the deconstructionist bandwagon and use Western critical theory to relentlessly hammer dharmic civilization as obscurantist, elitist, caste-riven, inegalitarian, restrictive, etc. etc.

Of course, once the Western Grand Narrative representation of India has become the norm in cultural studies, our civilization's intellectual wealth is conveniently available for plunder, digestion, and re-packaging as "original thought" by the Amartya Sen/Martha Nussbaum types!

"Poverty" is still bandied about as a characteristically Indian vice... but a "capabilities approach", outlined on exactly the same dharmic principles of self-organizing social and economic development described by Surya below, has suddenly become the unique, original intellectual property of Sen and Nussbaum!! All hail the Age of Reason!

These fellows are indeed the Clive and Mir Jaffar of today."

 
Rajiv comments:
"This is very good analysis of Amartya Sen's and his girlfriend's (i.e. Nussbaum's) trajectory that fits the UTurn Theory. With one hand appropriate (i.e. stage 3 of uturn) and with the other hand denigrate the source (i.e. stage 4 of uturn). These stages as per uturn theory do not have to happen in one set sequence, nor do thay all happen in the same individual, and could take multiple generations of scholars to become evident. There is also stage 5 in which this "new and Western" thought is re-exported back to Indian intellectuals who eagerly lap it up"

Surya adds:
"BD comments further to distinguish between apparent organic systems and Dharmic integral systems.  

(1) Synthetic unity is, at best, a convenience; it misses out on the deeper bonds that hold people together across the boundaries of hierarchies and diversified of various kinds.  Synthetic systems can be functional and pragmatic -serve their design purpose well.  For them to be integral systems, how the individual elements function versus the whole is looked at.

(2) A tighter form of synthetic unity can take on an organic quality where the overarching interests of the whole override separate interests of the parts.  The whole takes priority and parts are subservient to it.

(3) Many organic systems fall short of integral unity in the Dharmic sense.  This is because their building blocks are still separate and exert powers separately.  It is rare for a synthetic collection to become so integrated that the parts permanently relinquish their own self-interest.

(4) It could be a tentative coalition for a purpose - individual interests can surface at any time.  In integral systems, there is no question of temporary coalitions.  There is only one purpose.  

.. There is a simple test offered in BD to see if a system qualifies the definition of an integral system:

If the individual elements of the system retain their identity and interests separately then the system is synthetic.  
..
It is easy to identify some synthetic systems.  For example, the capital marketplace is synthetic in the sense that its participants try to optimize their own separate interests, the market's purpose being to enable each participant to transact for its own benefit.

Cooperative farming is a synthetic system.  Here the coalition is temporary and the individual elements are participating out of self interest.  United Nations is another example of this kind."

Rajesh shares:
"Actually this issue of Top-Down Organization vs Self-Organization is important for the future trajectory of Indian Retail Industry.

In the Western World one sees a few big players who own most of the retail outlets. They keep on buying the smaller players in the market further consolidating their market share and joint-monopoly!

In India one sees a huge number of sellers and vendors, who may be small and have just a few shops in a single town.

Now why is it important to preserve Mom&Pop Stores, family owned businesses, etc. vs Big Retail. After all Big Retail does offer us consumers more competitive prices, i.e. until their (monopoly project is complete), they do help in the creation of more efficient industry for Logistics, Refrigeration, Storage, Assembly, etc.

The biggest advantage in keeping it small is that in times of repression, self-organized retail sector has the ability to absorb a lot more people, who can look independently for opportunities, who can be self-employed. The Self-Organized Retail Sector offers a buffer for such times, especially as all other areas including agriculture in order to become more efficient have to cut down on dependent people. So Self-Organized Retail Sector remains the only savior in such times. For a huge country like ours where big industry nor government can provide jobs for everybody, this is a huge plus point.

How does the West react during times of recession? Well they roll out huge stimulus packages. They give money to various industries like construction industry, and other industries, for doing new projects in the hope that this heightened economic activity would give more people jobs. Invariably one gets only jobless growth. The industry takes the money but does not hire new people because they can do without! And the unemployed have nowhere to look for jobs. And the government has nowhere to fund jobs directly except the already bloated public services. So these people remain unemployed. In the West there is no Industry, which can act as a Recession Buffer.

In a global economy, where the pressure is so much to keep production costs low, it is possible that in agriculture and manufacturing there would be shift towards more efficiency and possibly more organization. That is all the more reason that inefficiency costs can be tolerated when they are more closer to user, i.e. in the retail sector.

Summarizing, we should keep the Retail Sector as self-organized and try to avoid Big Retail to force its way in! It will save us from the Recession and Jobless Growth problems of the West!"

Karthik adds:
"Developing, and effectively marketing, a BD-based "App" for economic development is a particularly pressing need, because poverty (like the "plight of women") is one of those emotive touchstones used over and over again by postcolonial theorists employing Western categories to depict India as a "uniquely divided and oppressive place" (Ronald Inden, quoted in BD)

When the arch-pedagogues of the Western Grand Narrative, and their acolytes on the Indian Left, use "poverty" to bash India (and by extension, all that is Indian)... we have the deck stacked against us from the start. That is because "poverty" is emotionally loaded, and any discussion of the subject provides an excellent vehicle for gratuitous civilizational invective.

Everybody knows "poverty" is bad, right? So when we get defensive about drain-inspector portrayals of poverty in India (such as "Slumdog Millionaire") it becomes easy for the enemy to portray us as vain jackasses... indeed, to assume a moral high ground and bash us with righteous indignation at our "inhumane indifference to the suffering of less privileged Indians". We are accused, in our embrace of "bourgeoisie nationalism", of willfully turning a blind eye to the harsh realities with which millions of our fellow countrymen contend every day.

Here is a case study in the use of "poverty". A potentially honest and non-judgmental journalistic treatise on an Indian slum has been immediately co-opted by the Usual Suspects to push their venal and motivated deconstruction of India.

This is a book by one Katherine Boo who has apparently written about the effects of  poverty and deprivation around the world, including in the United States.

This book in particular deals with the Annawadi slum near Mumbai airport. Having not read the book myself, I cannot comment on whether it is simply a "drain-inspector's report" or actually offers a fresh perspective. It is quite possible, given Boo's reputation as a dispassionate and thorough journalist, that the book is simply a careful, non-judgmental and even sympathetic record of her interactions with Annawadi's inhabitants over a period of some years. She has not spared economic inequality in the West, and was awarded the Pullitzer Prize in 2000 for her reporting on the plight of welfare recipients and group-home inhabitants in Washington DC.

Boo herself is a journalist, not a "theorist". She appears to have reported on her experiences in Annawadi (thankfully) without resorting to "analysis" or "interpretation".

However, her book has already become a vehicle for celebration, and hijack, by the theory-wallahs we know so well. They have seized upon it as another chance to do India down, and reinforce their pet themes.
....

"A beautiful account, told through real-life stories, of the sorrows and joys, the anxieties and stamina, in the lives of the precarious and powerless in urban India whom a booming country has failed ...."... Amartya Sen

Not to be outdone:
"....." Ramachandra Guha

"Her book, situated in a slum on the edge of Mumbai’s international airport, is one of the most powerful indictments of economic inequality I've ever read. If Bollywood ever decides to do its own version of The Wire, this would be it.”... Barbara Ehrenreich

[...In her view, Bollywood should take its cue from the mirror that American journalist Katherine Boo is holding up before India, and become inspired to incorporate the Western Grand narrative of Indian poverty into its own pop-cultural representations of itself!...]

.....
One effect of this assault is to pre-emptively delegitimize alternative frameworks of conceiving of poverty, of approaching and resolving the social and economic problems associated with poverty. That is exactly what the Indian left wants: a monopoly over the characterization of Indian poverty, restricted to dogmatically Marxist frameworks that will never, ever concede an inch of space for dharmic solutions.

Just one of many reasons why I am so grateful that Rajiv has begun this work.."


struth91 posts:
"Regarding a BD-based "App" for economic development-

Economics is best addressed as a component of Governance (Raj Dharma). A useful way of understanding Dharma, the ethics and science of decision making, is to categorize it as operating at 4 levels : Individual & Community Dharma, Corporate Dharma (covering all forms of organizations and leadership issues), Raj Dharma (including governance, politics, economics and jurisprudence) & Inter-State Dharma.

There's  already a fair amount of work on classical Indian thought around economics ..

As is well known, Kautilya's Arthashastra is probably the earliest ever treatise in the world on economics. There was also a defined Sreni Dharma for regulating the srenis /  guilds of ancient India, a precursor to modern-day Corporate Law.

Coming to "Apps" in this area- would be better to aim to popularize concepts, processes and frameworks of analysis that are derived from classical Indian thought. But there is some danger in full-fledged economic positions unless these are sophisticated and nuanced enough to stand up against current models.  Simplistic 'black and white' positions, such as an anti-multinational message (the RSS propagated this in the nineties) can be easily panned as being 'obscurantist'...."

Senthil introduces a new angle to the discussion. Rajiv notes: "Good points made. See my challenge in the new thread I am starting, titled "Is the Vedic lifestyle viable today?". This thread was summarized here.

"One of the important message in BD is "Reversing the Gaze"..  its a call to bring ourselves out of the western models and see them from our dharmic perspective..  

So far, we were discussing about dharma from a philosophical angle..  i call it as "Software" part..   We also need to consider another part of our dharma, which is the hardware part..  ie, what are the physical environment needed for our dharma to flourish?  I wish, this should also be discussed..  Let me share few things, which i had thought over..

1. The present system of politics, the administration, the geographical organisation, are all based on western systems.  What i find is that, we are trying to fit our dharma, in to these western systems, which i feel is incompatible.  

To quote one example, the current westernised urban system, heavily pollutes rivers, seas, and ground water system.  So many lakes, has been destroyed to expand big metros like chennai, mumbai etc.  Such acts cannot be part of dharma.   Rivers are divine for us, so as other water sources. 

Another example i could cite is that every hindu has to perform pitru dharpan to our ancestors, and for that we need water sources.  In our traditional administration system, a nagara or a grama is planned, and built in such a way, that is conducible for hindu way of life style.  In all ancient nagaras, there would be a shiva/vishnu temple at the center, with a big lake.   In All traditional gramas, there would be a grama devata at the centre of the village, with  a lake/pond or a small water body besides it.  These water bodies, enable hindus to do their religious rituals. So our dharma flourished, because, our nagara and grama were built according to agamas.  Today, the metros, and towns are built based on western model, for western type of economic system, and not based on dharmic way of life or dharmic way of economy.   That's the reason we are finding it more and more difficult to adhere to our dharma in Metros.  Infact, its virtually impossible for dharma to exist there.

2. We never had anonymous/atomised populations before britishers.  Our society had a different kind of representation system, based on family/jathi/village, which is still existing in the other part of india.   Every jathi had jathi panchayat headed by jathi elders, which resolves internal family and jathi disputes.  At a village level, there would be village panchayat, resolves issues related to village administration or inter-jathi disputes. Whether jathis are outdated or not, is a different question.  ...

3. Hinduism is often described as a way of life.  However, a way of life is based on societal setup, and the physical setup (village/nagara planning).
   Societal setup:  the jathis, its gothra, kula devata, all have their own way of worship, rituals, marriage etc. which forms the cultural part.
   Physical Setup:  the facilitation by design of living area (village/nagara), in such a way, that the life style (& hence the dharma) of these jathis are made possible and feasible.

There is one more angle - the economic angle - which i will not include for now.

4. Based on Rajiv's excellent point of "Sanskrit Non-Translatables", i would like to convey, that the words, Nagara, Grama, Dhesa  cannot be equated to city, village or nation of the western vocabulary.  In Europe, the nation is always based on race and language.  Whereas in our civilization, a dhesam is based on dharma.  We had 56 ancient dhesams, and all of them, had the same social structure - The brahmanas, kshatriyas, vyshyas, and shudras.  The racial formation is virtually impossible in such setup.

In western terms, a village is a place with sparse population.  As per webster's dictionary till 1830s, a village is termed as place where barbarians live.  We cannot apply this term to denote our gramas.  Our gramas are well planned, and well designed as per agama.  (Note:  we verified this aspect, by visiting many of the gramas in chera dhesam in tamilnadu..   )

5. The social composition of a typical village is same across south india ( for north india, i have no data as of now).  The farming community would be predominant, and some dozen other jathis that exists as part of them.  The beauty is that, all these jathis constitute a single entity.  ie, due to some reason (famine/war), if the farming community migrates, they do no go alone.  But migrate as a whole, with all the associated jathis.."
 
Raghu responds to Senthil:
"We must guard against a romantic reconstruction of our past. ... studied the Vaastu Shastras for ten years... We have seen both the exalted and the extractive sides of the so called pundits. While the original texts are open and rational, later day practitioners and present day Vaastu pundits have distorted the design principles beyond recognition into
a dogmatic set of formulae backed by blind belief.

Some of the governance mechanisms described by Dharampal and Claude Alvarez were misrepresented by the leaders of the time to accumulate land and wealth on the one hand, and allow the traditional duties to languish.

We have a difficult task on our hands, firstly of rediscovering a balanced sense of pride, secondly, of looking critically and rationally at both the past and the present. Dharampal was fond of saying that we can't become a great nation by
running behind the tails of the west, nor by blind resurrection of the tradition." 

Rajiv's response: This is a good comment and belongs to the new thread I started with message no. 2208. (summarized in this post - last week).

Arun has the last word in this discussion:
"The decentralized knowledge systems such as we call Hinduism today survived.The centralized ones, such as were taught in Nalanda, Taxila (of course, it included the traditions that survive today) perished.  It is not as though we did not have centralized knowledge systems, IMO."

RMF Summary: Week of February 13 - 19, 2012

February 15

Integral Unity Vs. Synthetic Unity Swami comments: Niall Ferguson in his latest book CIVILISATION: THE WEST AND THE REST has identified six "killer apps" that he says can be attributed to the West's domination over the Rest over the last 500 years or so. They are briefly: 1) Competition, 2) Science 3) Democracy 4) Medicine 5) Consumerism and the 6)Work ethic The work ethic is again attibuted only to the Protestant beliefs such as Calvinism. He goes at length to correlate China's economic resurgence to proliferation of Protestant sect in the land. To me it appears too facile an explanation as our Varna ashrama and jati based trade pursuits infused much greater discipline. I personally felt the explanations of Vivekananda and Aurobindo appear more convincing" Carpentier responds: China's economic resurgence is at least in part Confucean, not protestant. February 15 A knowledge system represents a system of thought, and it can be utilized by anyone regardless of personal identity, nationality, race or religious affiliation. For instance: Nagarjuna, considered the second most important Buddhist thinker after Buddha himself, was a practicing brahmin, and yet he utilized Buddhist axioms to develop his thought. Western notions of Cartesian time, reductionist metaphysics are the result of Biblical influences. Yet those from other traditions and identities have been using these to do engineering and other problem solving. Likewise, my approach to dharma in BD has been as a knowledge system only, and not as identity for political purposes. By adopting this posture, I have entered spaces that are otherwise blocked to ideas seen as identity politics. I offer this as food for thought: While some persons want to combine their knowledge system with their identity, and also combine their identity with their politics, it is equally legitimate for others to keep these domains separate. By keeping my allegiance to a dharmic knowledge system separate from my identity and politics, I have greater flexibility in how I play my cards in a given situation. Many other faiths use this strategy and have far greater experience in doing so. For instance, Sufism is being propagated very successfully as a knowledge system (dealing with aesthetics, arts, 'generic' spirituality) independent of any religious identity. BD points out that secularism is similarly a kind of "Christianity's double", because it propagates certain categories that appear neutral but in fact they are sneaking "Christianity inside". (There is a gang attacking me with misinformation. They claim to be championing against inculturation. So have I been doing this very intensely long before they even arrived at the scene. The difference is that I also see secularism as a form of Biblical inculturation, which is a deeper understanding then theirs is even today. This is why BD goes into great length to contrast between secularism and sapeksha-dharma and explains why the latter is a superior knowledge system.) The so-called clash of civilizations is actually a clash of knowledge systems. Unfortunately, many people are fighting at the surface level seeing it as a fight of identities and political control of resources. Bottom line: If you propagate dharmic civilization using the term "Indian Knowledge Systems", you will penetrate deeper and easier. So make a conscious choice between three kinds of discourse: (i) knowledge systems, (ii) identities, and (iii) politics. Each has its forums. Unsophisticated persons lack the nuance to choose when to separate them and when to combine them, and how to combine them.

JCP responds:
"Use of the phrase "Indian Knowledge Systems", even if it may smack of Indian identity, has the advantage that over the last 65 years, the Indian Christians & the Indian Muslims have developed a unique Indian identity, unlike those from other countries & they are less likely to cooperate with their external sponsors, specially the US evangelical denominations in their subterfuge of "acculturation" & "inculturation". 

       Another point perhaps, that time has come to define "Indian Secularism" as "respect for all faiths", because this variety of secularism as it has grown over the last 65 years in India is uniquely Indian & by no means is it a double of "Christianity" as it is preached & practiced by the Vatican. I happened to be a member of the Senate of the JNU, New Delhi for three years, about a decade ago, when a particular thesis by a Christian professor came up for discussion in the context of plagiarism, where in he seemed to attack "Indian Secularlism" as a hindrance to conversions through "inculturation". Of course, it was not this aspect which was discussed in the Senate, but I was able to preview the thesis only out of my curiosity. Incidentally, the hard core of Muslims in India, too regard "Indian Secularism" with disdain & call it a double of Hinduism."

Rajiv comment: I argue in BD for the adoption of the term sapeksha-dharma over secularism, be it Indian secularism or not. Right now Indian secularism is a "disputed territory" with forces pulling from the dharmic side and opposing Indian voices based in Abrahamic and western secularist models. Its not a good idea to concede to this space and simply give up our own categories.
While each of us can come up with war stories of victory like you have given, there are plenty of other developments in the opposite direction that are usually too discomforting to be remembered.  ..."

February 17

Times of India: "BEING DIFFERENT by being yourself" http://educationtimes.com/educationTimes/CMSD/Expert-Eye/26/201202172012\ 0217113828946436451f/Being-different-by-being-yourself.html This was the result of an...

February 19

Is a return to Vedic lifestyle viable today? Rajiv asks: Those who adopt a posture of "lets return to the ideal past" must address the following problem. The subcontinent's population has grown 100 fold since the classic vedic period. Today's combined South Asia is 1.5 billion whereas in early 1900s Gandhi and the Brits refer to a 300 million population. Thats 5 times growth in a century! If you go back to early British period the writings estimate a subcontinent of 200 million population. Historians have estimated 100 million for the early Mughal period. If you take this back in time, another 2000 years, its likely that the entire subcontinent had no more than 10 million to 20 million population. Is the classical Vedic lifestyle scalable to support a population density that is 100 times larger? If so, how? We cannot skip this issue and assume without some rigor applied to establish the case. For instance we must inquire into the following with open minds: Deforestation has resulted due to pop density explosion. In the Vedic era the subcontinent was covered with forests. Not today. ... What about farming then and the intensive farming techniques required today to support the pop density we have? .. Vedic era did not have to worry about EFFICIENT USAGE OF NATURAL RESOURCES because the population was tiny and nature was immense and virtually limitless. This is not a valid assumption now. Second assumption then was the absence of aggressive competition from outsiders with an expansionist agenda to capture market share in any way possible. These two realities - over population in a finite planet and external competition - are seldom factored in by our dharmic leaders today. This is caused by their lack of reversing the gaze to understand the world dynamics from our viewpoint. They stopped doing purva paksha after the "victory" over Buddhists, .... Believe me, as someone who spends a lot of serious thinking time daily on such matters, I would love to develop practical solutions to today's dilemmas facing humanity. Thats what my Apps programs are trying to do with the help of third party experts. So the point is that mere dismissal of western civilization does not by itself establish the viability of dharmic civilization for today's world situation. Maybe a very large scale population reduction over the next century is becoming unavoidable. But that is not easily achieved due to the enormous politics at stake - each subgroup in a fragmented society wants its numbers to grow. So does humanity face vicious cycles from which a solution has not yet been proposed? I am not looking for chauvinism, slogans, blame game, etc. but serious inputs."

Raghu responds (1):
"This is a very important caution. The discovery of a path that is Indian in principles and philosophy but contemporary and pragmatic is a 'razors edge'. What will help is for us to create some forums where we can offer constructive critiques on some of the attempts we are making.

Rajiv's response: THIS is a forum meant to inspire this. BD was written to be a platform for developing such modern day Apps. All of us are co-developers of the Apps...



Raghu responds (2)
The BD approach is the most sensible one I have come across. Dharampal ji when he was in chennai had inspired some of us to walk this path and we had created the People's Patriotic Science and Technology (PPST). ...

Rajiv's response: I have worked with some of Dharampal's top followers, and am involved with a few of them for developing
Apps... Please invite such persons here. This is why I want to move on beyond the whining against others mode - that is necessary to define WHY we have such a NEED, but not sufficient by itself." 

ArjunShakti responds:
Even living in Western society one can live a Vedic lifestyle to some extent .I don't think having a Vedic lifestyle means one has to go backwards to some `stone age' or something. Living Dharmic is about finding a balance and harmony in whatever surrounding one lives in by taking the best from all directions
without harming yourself or society as a whole .Vedic lifestyle and modern technology can go hand in hand. 

Neeraj comments (1):
"... Since the question asked is in the Vedic framework, I assume we are talking of a model which is based on Vegetarianism as an alternative. This change alone can
make a huge difference because, apart from population, one of the culprits is meat industry. ...In simple terms one hectare of rain forest cut down to feed human population can feed ten time more vegetarians as compared to meat eaters.

Rajiv: Agreed


Neeraj comments (1):
The use of chemicals for better yield is again a myth propagated by industry. I can say this because I have worked with a group who promotes organic farming. Initially I thought them to be a bunch of Jholawalas but now I have seen that the yield is far better without the use of chemicals. Not only that, the quality of food is also far better. (e.g. ) Genetically modified foods are an even bigger danger then the chemicals that we used. Firstly, the increased productivity is a myth fabricated by industry and scientists on its payrolls.
The increase is said to be a result of pest resistant property of the crop but so far, the bugs have outsmarted the engineers. Secondly, in Punjab, where bt cotton is being grown (cotton belt), the problems that have arisen are miscarriages (humans and animals), increased infertility, allergic reactions and death of cattle fed remnants of crops. Thirdly, experiments done on animals have established stunted human growth, intestinal cancer and stomach cancer due to GM crops. Fourthly, GM crops reduce crop variety by pollinating with non GM plants. Fifthly, inter generational studies on animals have shown that it is not necessary that the manifestation of any side effects will appear in first generation. I suggest everyone to watch a movie called Food Inc. for a better idea.

Rajiv: Good point. So we must do a point by point rigorous analysis of dharmic civ versus alternatives, to determine what aspects should stay, which ones need to be updated (like smritis get updated), and which are to be rejected and
replaced..."

Jagdish notes:
"I would argue not. Almost all of the vedic systems were heavily wedded to the land we live in, the environment, the rural and pre-industrial setup.

Now, this does not mean that the vedas and our shrutis and smritis by themselves are of no value and hence junk. They have principled eternal messages in them that need to be imbibed in society. There are lessons for stability of mankind and society that need to be retained forever. However the parts that were context and time and space related cannot be used in a new Dharma Shastra.

What we also have to realize is the vedic systems themselves have undergone huge changes in the land scape that is Bharat. The Naastika movements, the Bhakti movements... The need of the hour is to transform the governance structures of this core state to be in alignment with Dharmic principles. What is "holy" to us is not "secularism" "liberalism" or even "democracy". These are evolutions of the west and quite frankly we do not need any lessons from the west on how to run a humane society.

What we do need are some structural elements that are specifically suited to a post industrial society that we can learn from.

Example, in the US the written constitution and laws are avowedly non sectarian but the unwritten constitution (the actual ways and values of society) are decidedly governed on a protestant ethos.

India needs something similar. Where the state is the chief propagator of dharmic systems (this has nothing to do with religion). I personally do not consider SD to be a religion at all. 

I have many more thoughts and there is an excellent thread http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5586 that explores some of these issues..."

JCP posts:
The plain answer is a "NO", but what can we have as an alternative system would have to emerge from the best & viable combination of the West (which has been copied in the conscious deliberate development through Indian Five Year plans during the last 65 years & from which the correction would have to start) & the traditional Indian surviving systems which have escaped destruction from the different directions in the past as well as use of the learning that India may have done from the past 1000 years to the extent documented. ...

Rajiv comment: Agreed. This is why I never wanted to join political or other blind bandwagons, because they inhibit creative open thinking out of the box. Criticizing the west is to CLEAR THE SPACE FOR FRESH IDEAS, not as an end in itself. 

Subodh adds: 
"1. Vegetarianism is indeed the only alternative when sustainability is addressed on the basis of water foot print. However this has to be by allowing milk as a vegetarian diet.Vedi tradition hold Cow's milk as God's
Nectar. Certain essential nutritive elements such as vitamin B12, and proteins are not available in any vegetables. These can be supplied only by Milk. Cow's Milk is found the only viable source of all these essential nutrients. Again modern science endorses the Vedic tradition that Cows should feed on green forage. Only Green Forage fed cow's milk has much lower saturated fat. This milk also has the highest content of EFAs (Essential Fatty Acids) Omega3, and equal amount of Omega 6, Only such milk supplies all the Carotenoids that are
essential for healthy eyes to avoid cataract and age related macular degeneration..
2. It has been also confirmed by researches nearly 100 years ago in India by Sir Albert Howard that cow based agriculture and traditional Indian crop rotation methods of agriculture do not require any chemicals as fertilizers and pesticides/ insecticides. .... Rudolph Steiner's BioDynamic Agriculture is based on cows and lunar calenders is now an accepted improved method of agriculture even by US Agriculture dept.... This obviates all GM crop science intervention.
3. Adulteration and modification of food items to increase the shelf life are concerns of worry on health issues. ... Modern trend of Urban Agriculture and Buy Locally produced food items are trends going back to revive Vedic life style.
4. Zero food miles also makes considerable fuel savings by reducing lot of transportation, and help in bringing down the prices to the lowest levels.
5. Vedic tradition had laid down [?]-Safe forests as pastures in the vicinity of habitats. Prof William Albrecht soil scientist of Missouri University established in 1920s that cows while grazing on land also maintained its fertility by depositing their Urine and Dung in the pastures. Thus pasture lands are self sustaining and do not require any external inputs to maintain the regular forage supply.
6....
7. Vedas also provide clear legislature strategies and priorities for Line Functions and Staff Functions in governance of nations. And these are all found to be most advanced even by modern management yardstick. Vedas give very clear
guidance on sustainable prosperity , mental and physical health and environments." 

Rajiv's response:
Except for the final point, all items below seem to deal with only food supply. This does not make a convincing enough case, as there is a lot more involved in society than food supply... I would request that we get the analysis "elaborated in minutest details."

Arun's comments:
"The first requirement to maintain a civilization distinct from others is its ability to defend itself. Unless return to Vedic lifestyle also returns to you the secret of Brahmastra, etc., the requirement is to have today's high technology - and all the whole societal set-up needed to keep ahead or abreast of the latest in technology. The first challenge, then is to figure out how you will make that work. ... In the words in K.M. Munshi's retelling of our books, kshatra tej is a necessary accompaniment to brahma tej...." 

Ramesh says:
"....While Rajivji has definitely opened the eyes of the real motives of the western do-gooders working in India, we cannot always blame the west or islamic invasions for all our country's social evils. We need to take responsitily for
the rigid stupidity of our ancestors as well. In that regard, I don't see any reformation that could dismantle the Jati/Varna hierarchial social structure of Indian villages other than completely dismantling it through effective legislation that has punitive consequences.

Speaking of punitive consequences, I am aware of it's misuse in India today regarding affirmative action policies or instances of journalistic freedom getting wrongly potrayed as hate speech towards a particular Jati etc. But this genie cannot be put back into the bottle."

Karthik responds:
"For me a vedic lifestyle is one that allows for the balanced pursuit of the four puruShArthas, dharma, artha, kAma and mOkSha. The activities that can give us artha and kAma change from time to time. We find newer and newer ways of seeking pleasure and material wealth all the time. And the traditions that we have give the other two. Karma KANDam gives a basis for the pursuit of dharma and the jnAna kANDam the pursuit of mOkSha. Thus, for me, a vedic lifestyle is one that gives a strong association for every individual in the society to a particular karma and also lays out a path where the person, if he chooses to, would seek mOkSha.

I see the karma kANDam rituals as ones where our tradition has tried to make us enlightened consumers. Unlike a consumerist society (which lays emphasis on artha and kAma alone, leading to over-consumption and hence decay of dharma), the vedic society expected people to temper their artha and kAma pursuits through dharma. And at the same time, through the various karmas, made us 'consume' for the sake of the devas. ...

The various karmas like yajnas, temple rituals like abhiShEkam, or spending on festivals like Deepavali, or giving dAna to a worthy cause, for me signify this enlightened consumption. So, what we need in a vedic lifestyle then, are such karmas, which will help us temper our artha and kAma pursuits and at the same time direct the consumption for a larger good of the society.


So, we should continue to conduct yajnas, build temples in places where we live, donate money etc. with a proper understanding of why we are doing it and that constitutes the vedic lifestyle, according to me. For this lifstyle to exist, we need
1. To take some pride in our traditions.
2. Know why we are taking pride in the traditions (so it does not get to the head in a meaningless way)

....

Using ideas from BD, we can say the means of production and points of consumption, should not be connected synthetically as producers and consumers, but as an integral whole, karma being the underlying connection. The producers produce for the yajna and the consumer feeds the yajna. The producer's primary objective then is not to maximize individual profit nor is the consumer's primary objective the pleasure of consumption. Both these exist for sure, but as secondary objectives.
" 
 

Raj shares a link on parenting in Indian society
The author, Vimla Patil mentions the worldview promoted by BD, in the context of bringing up children.

Kesava comments:
"I feel we can get back to Vedic System of living in a limited way, but not in strictest sense.
....
Take simple example of Pancha Yajnas. Via Pancha Yajnas, which should be treated
as a duty of a householder, he
1) serves society via brahma yajna, deva yajna
2) serves individuals via manushya yajna
3) respects and serves family via pitru yajna
4) respects nature via bhuta yajna

It seems to me that attempt of our ancient gurus has been to return to Yajnic roots but in a different form. Not everybody will be doing all Yajnas. For instance, Namboothiri families can do Athirathram type of Soma Yajnas only once in lifetime. This explains why such complex Soma Yajnas are not so often
conducted. To me, simple concept like Pancha Yajna replaces complex maha yajna procedures with simple and low cost ways, in a day to day life..."

Rajiv comment:
1) Your "solution" to the question Vedic whether lifestyle is scalable to our 100 times bigger population density covers a very narrow aspect only. It looks at ritual as the core of Vedic lifestyle, and simply ignores dealing with broader issues of super high population density:

- Can the rule by king work today?
- Can villages with such high densities and so close to one another enable life to continue without heavy duty technology and machinery?
- Will heavy industry, in turn, lead to competition intense? (Remember the Soviet experiment to fight free enterprise failed.)
- Does the resulting mobility of jobs cause break up of joint families?
- can we keep animals with us in high density apartment buildings?
- can we fight external enemies who are at the gates, if we have so much decentralization of society, and the resulting fragmentation? ...."


uv_s2 adds:
"....Any alternative cannot be prescriptive to the core. It has to have a few principles that we should all veer towards but specific answers can be identified by each community/ grouping based on experimentation and review.

b. The core minimum principles that must be established must be such that these can be applied in all situations - whether family life, personal choices, corporate life, societal behaviour, relationship between two nations, scientific pursuit, etc. Such principles must then become the constitution of the country.
If Equality, Secularism, Minority protection, etc are adopted as Constitution, while these are possibly useful on their own, they cannot be applied to our day to day life as these are not really subtle enough or useful enough for application..."