How does the karma theory of Hinduism work?

Take some time and follow through this enriching discussion on Karma, how it works, how it doesn't work, the role of free will, past actions, the future impact of action, or inaction ... 

Insightful exchanges throughout this post. Among the very best in the forum. Proud to share this. Bookmark it. You may need to come back to this  discussion at some point in your life :)

This discussion started off from a question on the origins of the term 'Chandala'. Dr. Koenraad Elst provides a deep historical and scriptural perspective. In the latter half of the discussion, Rajiv Malhotra explains Karma theory quite beautifully. This is followed by a refreshing sequence of Q&A.
 
November 2013
Need help with the meaning of a word: Chandala

Kiran asks:

"..  Recently somebody gave me a copy of Ravi Zacharias's DVD, Jesus among other gods, where in he quotes from Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.7 (8).  The english transaltion of the verse is below.

"When one acts piously, he attains a good birth. He is born as a brahmana or a kshatriya or a vaisya. When one acts sinfully, he attains a sinful birth. He is born as a dog, a pig, or an outcaste"

When I looked up the sanskrit verse, it says "Chandala" (womb of a chandala women). According to Wikipedia, Chandala means "Chandala is a Sanskrit word for someone who deals with disposal of corpses, and is a Hindu lower caste, formerly considered untouchables. Currently it is a term used specifically in Indo-Aryan speaking regions of India. Sandala has become a swear word in the colloquial usage of the Tamil language. Chandal is a general derogatory slur used to refer to a filthy, mean or low person^[1] in North India."

... Ravi says this verse promotes caste system, which is incorrect and seems like the verse was completely taken out of its context. (Upanishad talks about progression of atman in its journey to Mukti)
 

.... what is the real meaning of the word “Chandala”, is it possible this word had a different meaning during the post vedic period and over the period of time meaning of the word got changed based on its use."

Karthik forwards an interpretation from a priest:

"...This verse does not endorse any system of discrimination it merely states that whatever vasanas or habits one cultivates in life one reaps the fruits thereof in the next birth. The family that one is born into and the social circumstances of one’s birth are all due to Karma..."

Koenraad Elst comments: (glad to have Dr. Elst back after a long break!)

"... To say hazily that words just happen to undergo changes in meaning. Something more specific is needed, esp. on such a possibly very harmful quotation.

It is a fact that the very oldest mention of the reincarnation doctrine (of which the Rg-Veda is totally innocent) already implies the caste application of the karma interpretation of reincarnation. It is in this form the Uddalaka et al. first learn the doctrine from their king. It says that if you have shown a pleasant character, you will be born as a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya. These caste titles necessitate a caste translation of the second part: if you have led a stinking life, you will be born from a stinking womb: dog, pig or Chandala.

Chandala was originally an ethnonym of one of the Dravidian-speaking tribes of Central India, where you still have the Kandhs, Gonds etc.; probably the Kandaloi mentioned by Ptolemy in his geography....

At any rate, the emotive meaning of "Chandala" must have been something like "savage", "cannibal". So, in the moralistic version of the karma doctrine (future reward or punishment for your present conduct), caste is included in the calculus of auspiciousness: just as poverty, a handicap, slavery etc. are miserable conditions which may serve as karmic punishment, so also the birth in a lowly community, regardless of whether it is classified as "untouchable" or "tribal".

If you want to present Hinduism to the world as egalitarian, you will indeed have to straighten out quotes like this one from the Chandogya Upanishad. But to a Christian, you should not answer by apologizing for or refuting his understanding of the Upanishad quote. You should simply point at the Biblical repeated sanction for slavery or at Yahweh's repeated commandments to kill the unbelievers (e.g. the pious worshippers of Baal incarnated as the Golden Calf, made from their generously donated Jewels) or the strangers threatening to pollute the people's purity (e.g. the cheating and massacre of the Shechemites by the sons of Jacob). You may set your own house in order, but meanwhile you have to keep Christian meddlers out by refocusing their attention on their own injustices."

  

This resulted in a very interesting discussion by Rajiv Malhotra on the nature of karma theory, which we carry 'as' is to avoid any misinterpretation

 "There is a persistent confusion on the difference between the following two ideas:

A) Bad karma leads to future birth in adverse conditions, whereas good karma leads to future birth in good circumstances. (Karma theory)

B) A person should be treated by society depending on the type of parents. (Caste system as known today)

A is true as per Hindu dharma, but B is untrue. These ideas must be separated and differentiated. Otherwise people falsely conclude that A implies B.

Some points to consider are:

PART ONE:

1) One's karma leads to corresponding phala (consequence). This is the principle of causation. Karma X causes the effect Y. We might write it as: X ==> Y.

2) For Y to happen within the natural laws, the right conditions (Z) are necessary in which Y will happen. Z is simply the means by which Y will happen. If I am to die in a plane crash, I will "happen" to book a seat in that particular flight. It is not that the pilot or anyone else involved in the flight "caused" my death. It was coming to me. The circumstances (Z) leading to my death (such as pilot error, engine failure, hijacking, etc) were mere mechanisms to bring it about, but the effect of being killed was coming to me because of my own past karma.

3) In the above example, can we say that: Z ==> Y? Did the pilot error or engine failure or hijacking cause my death? Karma theory says NO. These were merely the mechanisms by which natural law could operate and bring my death. The real cause of Y was X, not Z.

4) Once you understand the above, then it becomes easy to appreciate that one's parents do not cause one to have certain experiences or propensities. These are the result of past karmas and the parents are merely the mechanisms. Each of us chose his or her parents, society, time and place of birth by virtue of the portfolio of karmas that needed to be expressed or played out.

PART TWO:

5) Even though a person has a specific circumstance at birth it does NOT follow that his entire life's outcomes will be pre-determined by that. There IS meritocracy at work. The outcomes in one's life will be a combination of both past karmas and one's use of free will in the present. Thus a man born in adversity can advance by his own actions and free choices. Conversely one can fritter away one's good conditions by being foolish, unethical etc. So one's life's outcomes are a combination of both past karma and free will that is exercised in the present.

6) Therefore, one cannot use past karma as excuse, and fail to take responsibility, or just give up. Conversely, one cannot take the good life for granted because of birth circumstances.

Hence, karma theory is NOT fatalism.

PART THREE:

7) The above has focused solely on one's own self: what I choose to do and how it impacts me. But what about one's attitudes towards someone else? Should my attitude towards a person be biased by that person's conditions? If yes, that would mean I am biased because he is born poor and hence I feel it was coming to him. Or if I am biased favorably towards a rich man because I feel his good karma made him rich. These biases would be WRONG on my part and they would be acts of bad karma by me. My attitude towards another person should be unbiased either way, and should be based entirely on what is MY RIGHTEOUS ACTION, I.E. MY SVA-DHARMA. The fact that he is in adverse conditions ought to generate sympathy/karuna, and not harsh judgment.

8) In other words, caste bias by me is wrong!!!

9) Karma theory is my guiding principle in my OWN actions. That is how I judge MYSELF, not others. My attitude towards others should be 'tat tvam asi'. "



Upon member request, Rajiv elaborates on tat tvam asi.
"There are many levels of this "second-person" practice. It culminates in what is called nididhyasana. To learn this get a good guru to initiate you in Shankara's Upadesa Sahasri or some other similar text.

At preliminary levels you can practice by seeing the other person as Brahman-playing-role-abc.

So you need bifocal vision: one vision seeing Brahman and the other seeing the person abc.

Also experience oneself at both levels: one anchored as atman, the other as "Rajiv" or whatever the role happens to be.

So one sees the Self-playing-1 interacting with the Self-playing-2. Note the Self is same in both cases but the roles are not.

The realm of action is where there is multiplicity of roles. Hence its a fallacy to escape into sameness citing all is one like many people do. But this dual vision keeps both one and many views in perspective.

Second-person practice is 24/7 or as often as you can remind yourself. It is easier when things are pleasant and the other party is likeable. But when there is tension, it is easy to slip into one of two ways: Either into sameness (forgetting the role), or into dualism of 1 fighting 2 (forgetting the Self).

Second-person practices are what we can practice living actively, transacting with others. It is meditation off the mat so to speak." 


Sree seems clarifications on Rajiv's discussions:
"I would like to clarify the balance between past karma and free will that is implied in dharmic philosophy, and how that free will component contributes to future karma.

I believe Part 2 is important i.e the outcome of a janma cannot depend solely on the initial state of karma. Because if so, then the state of karma at the beginning of Janma1 already determines the state of karma at the beginning of Janma2, which determines J3 etc., for all time.

However, Part 1 intrigues me. X ==> Y; Z is the mechanism for Y and is not responsible for causing Y. If so, then what about the karma of Z ? Does the pilot gain or lose karma because his errors caused the death of a person? What if it was a mugger Z who killed person Y who was scheduled to die because of X - will Z accumulate bad karma? By this logic, no. But then, how does anyone ever accumulate bad karma? Or good? "

Rajiv comment: This final point above is very important to discuss. If pilot is an intermediary, does HE accrue karma on his account?

The pilot has a separate account for his karma. He is accountable for his actions. But his karmic transaction is with the cosmos and not with me. So there can be many scenarios, such as:

1) Pilot was not in error or his error was without bad intentions. He does not incur karma on his account.

2) Pilot was committing something wrong and knew it, or was careless due to being drunk or some kind of violation of the rules that he could have avoided but did not. So pilot commits karma with the cosmos.

The important point is that either way his action is a karmic transaction with the cosmos and not with me... "

Jal goes deeper into the discussion:
"....In his example of X, Y and Z, my take is that the phala of X is not Y but it is Z. That is to say that the karmic consequence of one's action manifests itself as a circumstance but not as a fact/state of one's being. So if someone did something horrible (action X) then they must face as its phala an air crash (circumstance Z) which MAY OR MAY NOT result in their death (fact/state of their being Y) which will ultimately depend on my free will.


As a less subtle example, if someone shoots a bullet at me, that's a phala (circumstance) from my past action that I cannot prevent but whether I decide to [try to] get out of its way or resignedly accept my fate and stand still is my free will. Extending further, all circumstances in my life are phalas of my past actions and my reactions to these circumstances are my new actions which will decide my future circumstances...."


Rajiv comment: He makes a good point, but its more complex. Phala is not always a specific/concrete outcome though it can be that in some cases.
Usually the probability distribution of possible outcomes has changed as the result of phala. There is still uncertainty of concrete outcome as there is free will. But the probability distribution has become adversely impacted.

The point I wanted to make is something else: The pilot is not the culprit in whatever adversity I face, be it death or anything else. The pilot is a conduit for the phala to reach me, much like the postman who delivers a notice that could be good or bad news, or a bank teller who hands cash to a client but the teller is not a party to the transaction between the bank and client.
The transaction is between me and the cosmos, various intermediaries are like the postman or bank teller."


Maria has the next set of questions:
"
1- If there are not bad intentions, no karma is incurred? Or karma is incurred but less strong? I thought that even without bad intention, some karma is always incurred, in different degrees, from the simple fact of breathing to that of causing a death to somebody unintentionally or intentionally. We keep creating some karma or the other while we think we are the doers so, in fact, till the moment of enlightenment in which we are completely surrendered to Brahman. Only when we realise we are not the doer, then we don´t create or accumulate any karma. It is not like this?

...in the case of this pilot, the crux is not if he was mere intermediary or not for a karma of somebody else being realised, but the fact that, almost for sure, he would not be enlightened. So that action of him, even unintentionally, even as only an intermediary, does create karma for him. Maybe mild, but it does.

2- In the typical example of a plane crash in which all the passengers die, it must be true that the karma of all of them was to die in that very moment....logic says that our moment of death is inevitable. But it seems is not death that finds them, but that they book that very flight to look for their death, of course, unconsciously. This case always seems to me strange...

3- What about natural disasters? It is the karma of all the population of that place to die together? It has to be... ???

4- In the case of adoptions, which parents were to be their parents? Both biological and then adoptive?"




Rajiv provides a detailed response. Again, we carry it without omitting anything, but highlight some key points.

1. Karma account is individual. But often the phala is given collectively when multiple persons deserve similar phala even though their karmas were independent. So if the set of persons ( S) happen to be in the same plane crash, it does not necessarily imply (though it could in some cases) that all the members of S committed a collective karma and hence got a collective phala.
2. Karma theory cannot be reduced to an algorithm. It is not deterministic or reductionist. It is probabilistic and has some uncertainty of outcomes. Free will operates within a system of causation that has built in uncertainty as well. This is why Indian thinkers had little issue with quantum mechanics whereas western thought went into a tailspin and the leading quantum physicists Heisenberg and Schrodinger both referred to Vedanta as the only system that could make sense of it. (This started the massive digestion of Vedanta into new formulations by Westerners so as to domesticate it within their own frameworks.)
3. My karmic analysis should be specific to my own actions and consequences, and I should not in the same analysis also bring in some third party's karma or consequences. If I try to understand his karma as part of analyzing my karma, it will confuse me. His karma deserve a separate analysis in which I dont figure. So each individual does karmic transactions with the cosmos and not with one other. Analogy: I sold shares of IBM to the stock exchange and someone else bought them from the exchange, but we did not transact with each other.
4. For example: Rajiv causes harm to person X. Implications: (a) In Rajiv's account: Rajiv has new entry/perturbation in his karmic account with the cosmos. (b) In X's account: He got phala from cosmos (NOT from Rajiv). Plus, depending on his reaction to rajiv, he could be creating new karma in his account with the cosmos. Important point is that both persons karmically transact only with the cosmos and never with each other. The rest of the details are inconsequential as far as this point is concerned. Focus ONLY on this one point: Who is the karmic transaction with?
5. Notice there are two levels of transactions going on. At the visible/empirical or worldly level, the two persons are doing things to each other. Someone who does not believe in karma theory will accept this level of transactions, and he will think that it is the entire transaction. (So if he got away with a corrupt deed, he will think he has escaped.) This is the level of transactions we see openly. Where we disagree with such a person is that we also believe in a second level that takes places invisibly to us. This is the shadow level of transaction. The shadow transaction is the karmic transaction with the cosmos. It is causation that is in addition to the first level that is visible. Each time you do visible-action it automatically adds a perturbation into your individual karmic account with the cosmos in the shadow system. Karma system is a shadow system of causation between each individual and the cosmos.
6. Once you get this point, then the idea of caste by birth becomes clear.  First, my parents did not cause my circumstances as my phala came from the cosmos, and parents were mere facilitators. Second, the phala is probabilistic and not deterministic, meaning that I have free will to change my life. Third, how I react/respond to my circumstances creates new karma which is entirely up to me.

The implications are:

• Dont blame others for your present circumstances.
• You are not stuck in your circumstances long term.
• You must act in a dharmic manner in each present moment, in order to create positive karma going forward.

We have not discussed here how to transcend karma by performing nishkama, wherein actions continue selflessly without accruing karma. Thats another level of discussion.

Furthermore, we have also not discussed a very important: Performing karma with dual-lens as Krishna asks Arjun to do. (A) The men on the other side are ultimately the same atman. (B) But in this role/manifestation they are men who must be killed, and Arjun-as-role-player must perform his svadharma and do this.

Its best to leave these two points for future threads. The main treatment above must be understood and not get sidetracked with these two more advanced levels of understanding."

Aditya has the next followup:
"does inaction on one's part create a karmic entry/perturbation? So, for example, if I walk past a beggar on the street and clearly have enough money in my pocket to give him but choose not to do so, then will this be a negative entry/perturbation with respect to the cosmos that I must deal with later on?"


Rajiv comment: "Great question. Physical action or inaction is not relevant. What was the intention in taking action or in not taking action?

This is where a living guru is important as only such a person can read your intentions and put them in context of the circumstances. My guru gave different advice to different persons on this very question, and it depended on multiple factors. If it is nishkama (non-doer mode) there is no karma accrued because "you" did not do it  it is prerna (divine inspiration). But if "you" have intentions or vested interest then it is karma if you elected to escape action out of self-interest  ego-driven desire to help. My most favorite question used to be: How do I know when the desire to help is prerna and when it is ego-driven? At times guru said Who are you wanting to get involved in what is none of your business; your ego seeks self-importance. At other times guru said This person needing help is Bhagvan and the situation came to you with prerna to act in a detached manner that is helpful.

So I dont think I can answer generally it depends on all the facts in a given situation. Nor am I qualified to be a guru who can evaluate all your circumstances. My advice is: You need a guru for at least a decade during your formative period of practice." 

Chir comments:
"Is there a book you would recommend that would give me more insights into karma and how it works or  how to understand/interpret it. Something that explains karma from not just Vedanta's interpretation but also from Samkhya and maybe Buddhism side (basically from various different schools)... I remember long time back you recommended a book on nondualism, Non-duality by David Roy. Do you think that would be a good start, since you also mention about karma with dual-lens?"

Rajiv comment: There are important areas of difference among various interpretations of karma in Indian philosophy. But I gave my own insights, not a canned/standard view from any particular text.

Buddhists do not go into detailed mechanics of karma and nor do Vedanta texts. Both these philosophies focus more on ultimate reality's relationship to provisional reality, and not so much on the details of how provisional reality functions. Samkhya gives a lot of detail on karma. But none of these philosophical explanations is very complete and much of what we know comes in the form of stories rather than a systematic end-to-end model per se. So you have to extrapolate a model/system by learning from anecdotes and examples.

...This eclectic method bothers many bookworms wanting a specific X or Y school's position. Other bookworms say "aha! I discovered that you must be in school X" just because I happened to use an example from there. Because they cannot think out of the box, they project this limitation upon others.
....
In the West there is an emerging field called "constructive theology" where Biblical scholars extrapolate, innovate and propose new solutions. They connect the dots in their own ways and this gets debated among them. Classical Christian texts do not address many issues people want to address today and this is done under constructive theology. In Hinduism we have smritis to do this job of innovation. In a sense my interpretations would fall under that. The laziness of our thinkers (who can do little beyond parroting) shows -- as in one example of a member writing persistently to me privately complaining that I must belong to some "sect X" because of what I write. They just cannot think out of the box."


 
Kundan adds:
"In addition to the beautiful explanation that Rajiv ji has given, you would want to check out "Problem of Rebirth" by Sri Aurobindo. Also there are two chapters in Sri Aurobindo's "Letters on Yoga: Volume 1 titled "Rebirth" and "Free Will, Karma" etc that you would want to check out."


Jal adds:
"I feel there is some confusion regarding the terms "probability distribution", etc., as used by Shri RM,. Terms "probabilistic", "non-deterministic", etc. - all allude to the concept of uncertainty. This uncertainty may stem from two possible sources and thus these terms may be understood to have two different shades of meaning:

Randomness: Dharma does not admit randomness, which is just another term for lawlessness, an antonym for Dharma. Hence this concept of randomness is Dharma-viruddh and hence must be shunned. I am almost sure randomness is NOT what Shri RM means when he uses the term "probabilistic".

Dynamic-ness: The other concept pertains to the ever-changing, fluid nature of Reality, which too leads to uncertainty. However, unlike randomness, this concept does not betray any lawlessness or anti-science character. It does agree with a law-based if-then determinism, in compliance with science... However the condition itself being fundamentally indeterminable (mainly because of consciousness and fundamental freedom of the self), the resultant fact too is indeterminable. Thus while admitting non-determinism, this concept is quite Dharma-sangat and should be adopted. (This is also a strong retort against fatalism that is unnecessarily imposed on the law of karma and hence important to understand.)"


Rajiv comment: Distinction between uncertainty in the cosmos and uncertainty in human ability and perception. Latter means inherent limit in the ordinary mind. All science, physics, knowledge is in the latter realm - i.e. wnat is know-able."

NY Times India Ink and Breaking India

October 2013
EU Passes "Resolution" on Caste-Based Discrimination! (NYT Article)
Arun shares a link and comments:
Pls see this article in the NY Times:

"

I'm shocked that this has "passed" as a resolution to link casteism (caste discrimination) as a "human rights" violation! This is exactly what Rajiv Malhotra said is happening in Breaking India.

The author Rikke Nohrlind is a leader of a "Dalit Solidarity Network" - a group explained in 'Breaking India'!"

Aditya notes: "Rikke Nohrlind seems to have a misunderstanding of Hinduism when she says: "While in South Asia caste discrimination has its roots in Hindu philosophy and religion and is sanctioned by the religion..."

Maria adds:
"... This topic is specially dangerous because, unless one opposes with base, everybody would be initially with such a "generous" organization which seems to support the helpless. Thanks to our eyes-opener, we can know and let others know what is behind all of this."

Tattva notes:
"It may be pertinent to mention that India Ink at NYT is edited by one Basharat Peer, a Kashmiri Muslim, who has on public forums spouted pro-separatist and anti-India stands. Not too long ago there appeared a placed blog over at NYT India Ink on the Mujaffarnagar riots which sought to reverse the truth of armed Muslims attacking HIndus returning from the Jat Mahapanchayat by claiming it was vice versa. Such audacity.

In general, NYT is hostile to Hindu interests and HInduism. Does no one recall the sorry piece on Ganesha festival or the motivated piece on Narendra Modi?

Make no mistake, this will only get worse unless things change in India..."

(here's a rebuttal to the aforementioned Ganesha article. The Modi article is covered in the 'Digestion' post on Onam earlier this month. The rebuttal to that article is available in this thread).

RMF Summary: Week of December 26, 2011 - January 1, 2012

December 26

ISKCON U-Turns Explained bluecupid shares: Since Rajiv makes ISKCON part of his research, you might be interested to know why many of the "gurukuli" youth have U-turned from it upon reaching adulthood.  Keep in mind that these people never CHOSE to join ISKCON but were born into it through their parents. They grew up in ISKCON's "gurukula" system wherein many of them experienced severe psychological, physical and even sexual abuse. It may be that had they not experienced this abuse, they would not have done U-turns, and there are some who, having even experienced such abuse, did not do a complete U-turn from either ISKCON or Vaishnavism in general. These young people, now adults, are currently writing about their growing up in ISKCON and what affect it has had on them as adults. Here's a peak into one such life: http://childhoodissacred.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/an-epiphany/ Another U-turner is a relatively longtime adult member (at the time) who was considered an intellectual treasure some decades ago in the organization. He has since gone on to write books about his experiences and other topics. His critique is insightful and not entirely negative. Website; http://surrealist.org/writing/gelberg.html In the section where he discusses all the things he learned from his ISKCON experience, I'm posting below what he writes "ON TRANSPLANTING AN INDIAN RELIGIOUS TRADITION TO THE WEST" but I recommend you read all of the "things learned". 40 I learned, in the end, that it is nearly impossible to transmit and translate a religious tradition from its land of origin into a completely foreign cultural environment. However earnestly one may attempt to preserve its original cultural and experiential ethos, that tradition is unavoidably refracted through a radically different cultural lens, and in the process is distorted, perhaps fatally. 41 I learned that any such attempt to universalize a religious tradition is further complicated when the transitioning culture has been redefined and repackaged as an elitist monastic society preaching a world-rejecting ideology. 42 I learned that such a foreign religious transplant, re-branded as a world-rejecting monasticism, would naturally create a high level of tension with the new host society, further causing the transplant to assume a defensive posture and recede into a hard institutional shell. ...... 45 I learned a thing or two about the role of the intellectual in a cultic milieu. Because intelligence, like everything else, is to be used only in Krishna's service, the intellectually inclined member finds him or herself constrained to a narrow range of intellectual or academic activity. His research library consists not of the accumulated wisdom of mankind, but of the writings of his guru (and those who support the guru's views). Thus, while the independent, non-apologetical intellectual engages in open-ended reflection and analysis in search of deeper insight and unbiased understanding of a chosen subject, the cult intellectual works under a particular mandate: to explain, promote and defend the ideology of the cult, as well as to promote the institution that embodies it. ... Carpentier responds to bluecupid: I often wonder at the rather sudden epidemic of sexual abuse in all organisations, spiritual, religious or not...Is it not some fashion that has become endemic.Millions of people now remember that they were sexually abused in infancy or adolescence. I am sure most are sincere and some are telling the truth but still! In some countries in the West many women equate any sort of sexual contact that they did not specifically demand with rape or abuse. Rajiv's comment:  "...This "blame Indian culture" is yet another example of superimposing western bias (in this case from the imagined liberal kind). I went to a catholic school in delhi and many boys said that as punishment they often got caned in a private room after having them remove their pants! In USA today there would a huge class action law suit against the whole chain of catholic schools. Probably it also happened in non catholic schools judging from stories told by boys from various places... So these "excuses" by uturners are just that. Their are right in making the charge, but wrong in accusing a particular faith or culture for it. The same is true of blaming caste bias on Hinduism per se. I was recently at the Huffington Post holiday party in Manhattan where a young Muslin woman (self classified as a Muslim feminist) was telling me how one prominent Indian Hindu scholar (name withheld) was giving a talk in Istanbul recently, and got totally stumped and embarrassed when an Indian Muslim woman in the audience asked her of caste biases in Hinduism. The Hindu woman had no idea what to say and retracted her entire thesis in embarassment. So I told this Muslim feminist that Islam has an even more severe caste system. I explained how the ashraf muslims (upper caste) in south asia imagined they were descendents of Arabs, Turks or Persians, including Saids who claimed to be direct descendents of the prophet. How the ethnic clashes in Pakistan were often involving those who migrated from the India side (mujahirs) after partition, and hence were not considered ashraf but ajlaf muslims (lower caste). This muslim caste is a form of racism. There has never been a single panel on it in the AAR or the past 40 years of South Asian Conferences in Madison where Hindu caste is staple diet for the scholars. Muslim caste is worse than the Hindu caste bias which is recognized and has quotas etc to help those who got affected. The muslim caste has no self consciousness on the part of the ashraf - Shabana Azmi and her pompous husband and most other prominent Indian muslim elites proudly claim to be ashraf, in ways that would be considered scandalous if brahmins did that in Delhi's elite circles. The muslim feminist was in full agreement with my understanding of the muslim caste system. I went on to tell her that every Pakistani newspaper in any language has matrimonial ads where they announce the caste of the person and the desired caste of the partner they want - this is out in the open as muslim caste. There was a christian Indian also present in the conversation. I was about to open the question of christian caste, but she anticipated this and calmly walked away in another direction. The muslim feminist then told me: Why did xyz (name withheld) not respond this way in the conference when she was asked? I told her that it was the wrong kind of Hindu ambassador invited to the event. " Kundan responds: "... debate on prime time on CNN-IBN will further substantiate Rajiv ji’s view that both Islam and Christianity practices casteism in India, given that there are two Islamic scholars who talking about the need of caste based reservations within the Muslim population in India (the case of Dalit Christians is also taken up). Though both Islam and Christianity have adopted devious and violent measures for conversion in India throughout Indian history, they have always claimed that they want to bring about the conversion to end caste-based discrimination in Hinduism. There is no society in the world where there isn’t any discrimination. But somehow Hinduism is a chief target of intellectuals to criticize. In the psychological parlance, we call this as “shadow projection.” Shadow projection happens when one projects one’s deficiencies, problems, and issues onto others, instead of examining it within oneself. What happens on an individual level also happens on a societal level. If one looks at the American society, discrimination based on lines of race, skin-color, gender, and religion abounds. However, India continues to be center-stage of projection where all discrimination happens. Despite that South Africa continued to practice apartheid till only a few years back, the specialty of Hinduism in this area continues to be reserved. Caste discrimination happens to be one of the greatest barriers among the Hindu Indian American kids in having a confident identity about themselves. It is also one that makes westernized Indians or “White Indians” as Rajiv ji mentioned in his dialogue with Francis Clooney at UMass, Dartmouth highly apologetic. It produces “Difference Anxiety from Below” and creates a fertile ground for assimilation and disowning of one’s Hindu/Indian identity. As we begin “reversing the gaze” we will ultimately need to write ... It requires work along the following lines: An insider’s perspective on varna as it has been described in various dharmic texts beginning with the “Purusha sukta” of the Vedas. We will then need to look at its discussions in all the dharma-shastras that have been given to us over ages. This is specifically because varna-dharma has changed according to time and place. This will, of course, reveal that Varna traditionally in India was guna-based and was not hereditary, according to the family of birth, as it became in later times (since I had written a detailed email on this topic some time back, I will refrain from writing about the same thing again). How the varna-based society was described in the travelogues of the foreigners since the times written records are available. How the varna based society changed during the Muslim and English rule (Ronald Inden and Nicholas Dirks talk about the English impact but the Islamic impact remains to be studied).   A critical inquiry of assumptions of all those philosophers like Locke, Voltaire, Rousseau etc who are said to have laid the foundation of “equality.” And finally the social problems that specifically appear and arise from the philosophical foundations of western societies. This is important further because in India, there is an uncritical aping of the west that is happening, which is problematic on at least two accounts: a) what India may be aping may not be in conformity with its particular way of being—this does not mean to say that the west is wrong in having its present society; just that India does not need to be aping it, and b) the problems that have emerged in the West due to its current social philosophies have not been sufficiently studied. And they need to be studied using the Indian cosmology.....   And as I say the above, I want to clarify that I am an opponent of birth-based jati/caste system, with all its problems of discrimination, rigid hierarchy and oppression but I do not share the same views regarding guna-based varna system which was a different matter altogether. The guna-based system, in my opinion, was based on plurality and diversity with utmost respect for people’s individual guna-based swadharma ... Because most people in India have forgotten the wisdom of the guna-based varna, many children are subjected to utmost oppression by their well-meaning and more-often-than-not-loving family members where every attempt is made to make them something which is not in tune with their natural flow, their swadharma." Venkat adds: "A very important point that is overlooked in any discussion about ISKCON is that Prabhupada emulated the Christian model as well as fundamental beliefs and incorporated them into his movement. It was, in a certain sense, inculturation, just that it happened in the reverse direction. Consider these: Tithing the church was a Christian practice and requirement (Deuteronomy 14:22-29) which Prabhupada borrowed into ISKCON. Prabhupada's opposition to sex is directly borrowed from Christianity (Matthew 19:11-12, 1 Corinthians 7), and was a radical departure from the Hindu ethos regarding sexuality. Even the congregational structure he created was based on the Christian model of congregation. The anti-intellectual strand that ran through ISKCON .... The list can go on but what Gelberg and others miss is that ISKCON's is not a problem of a foreign dharma entering the US soil - after all Christianity is a desert religion of Semitic origin. It is foremost the case of a dharmic religion acquiring Abrahamic memes. The abuse in ISKCON has been a fraction of what happens in the Catholic or Protestant churches but the media is generally prone to treat Christian churches with kid gloves. As Daniel Dennett says the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers it has acquired."   bluecupid responds to Venkat: ""Prabhupada's opposition to sex is directly borrowed from Christianity (Matthew 19:11-12, 1 Corinthians 7), and was a radical departure from the Hindu ethos regarding sexuality." Wrong. Its borrowed from the Bhagavat Purana, Bhakti Sandarbha, and Hari Bhakti Vilas. Please see here; http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/Brahmacarya.htm#Sex_and_begetting_prog\ eny One of the problems when discussing ISKCON with Indian Hindus is that they are more often than not unfamiliar with the texts of the previous Vaishnava tradition that ISKCON sprang from and which much of ISKCON is in fact based. "The abuse in ISKCON has been a fraction of what happens in the Catholic or Protestant churches but the media is generally prone to treat Christian churches with kid gloves." Wrong again. There was hardly any coverage of the ISKCON scandals in the mainstream media when the news broke. Even now, when you say "Hare Krishnas" in the West, most people think of happy people singing and dancing in the streets back in the 70s and often wonder "where have they gone?" They are unaware of the scandals. Same in India. Unless you are an ISKCON member or related to them, you would not be privy to what happened. Even the new comers who join the organization now are largely unaware. As far as the child abuse being a "fraction" of what took place in the Catholic Church during the same time period, well, adjust for population size and they are pretty par. It may even be more in ISKCON."    [this post is tied to the 'Jesus in India' thread that was discussed else. search Keywords] December 28 Frank shares:  I am about to travel to India to produce a documentary and would like to ask for recommendations.  The film will be called Beyond Reason and will be about the roots of Vedanta and the scientific nature of Indian Philosophy. I have already produced two documentary films on spirituality that you are guaranteed to love.    These documentaries are sure to invoke a lively discuss.  The first film, Beyond Me, is about consciousness, instincts, personality disorders and evolution and makes a case for how meditation is the solution for human suffering.  The second film, Beyond Belief, presents a case for Missing Knowledge that Jesus taught and that His authentic teachings have their roots in Vedanta. http://www.beyondmefilm.com"   Ravindra reviews the films Watched both the movies. Movie 1: Good documented case of Punar-Janma (re-incarnation) with lot of fuzzy statements about claims on behalf of Buddhism's new contributions on Yoga, that can not be substantiated... Movie 2: Mainly Speculative, wishful thinking, need of Christians to show Christianity and Jesus as Victimized, so create a story that Brahmans and Xshatriyas tried to kill Jesus. And Jesus learning Yoga directly from Rishis and Mahavira etc.. Basically a load of BS. December 28 Our own leaders inadvertently helping in the digestion of Yoga HSS USA is kicking off its annnual Surya Namaskar Yagna (SNY) from Jan 14th 2012. This is from their website:Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh USA (HSS) announces the...    January 1 Clarification to Ch.2 Dear Rajiv, I recently bought a copy of Being Different and am reading it with great pleasure and edification. You deserve our thanks for having undertaken the...   Jaunary 1 Triple anxiety of being different. Dear Rajiv Ji, Namaste, I have recently purchased your latest book, Being Different, and I have just begun reading it. Though I wanted to read it through to...   January 1 Another review of Breaking India in Tamil One of the good tamil literary website has published article on Breaking India. http://solvanam.com/?p=18567...

RMF Summary: Week of September 5 - 11, 2011

September 6

Church to get involved in training rural youth in sports Ganesh posts: "This article appeared in Times of India 09/08/2011, Bangalore edition. Church in search of sporting talent in villages New Mission A Shot In The Arm For Rural Youth Biju Babu Cyriac TNN Bangalore: In what would be the first of its kind in the country, the Roman Catholic Church of Bangalore has embarked on a new journey to tap the sporting talent of village youth.     “I think the Navajyothi Youth Academy will be a first in the country where a diocese is getting involved in the launch of a sports academy. We have set up many educational institutions but this is the first time we are getting into an institution exclusively for sports as we would like to see more world-class stars emerge from our city,” Dr Bernard Moras, Archbishop of Bangalore told TOI.     “When I was told about this project, I liked the idea as it will also contribute in nation building. As we strive to channel the positive energy of the youth, the search of talent in sports and games is also the road of the church. A playground is the best place to provide the youngsters lessons in mutual respect and cooperation. It is also the place where you can inculcate team spirit. We have made a beginning and I hope it will become a big banyan tree in the field of sports,” Dr Moras said...." Vish responds: "This article is 100% fact. I am an avid football fan and have the autographs of many of the names mentioned here. For many years, I was intrigued by the visits of Maradona (Argentina) and players from Brazil, of even FC Bayern, and most recently after WC as an MVP, Diego Forlan. If we think we've discovered enough of pervasive and perverted Christian conversion attempts from USA, there is now a massive frontal attack from South American countries coming through the pipeline of "football" (Soccer) and its powerful God equivalent stars and their phenomenal money. People like brazil's Kaka etc are already fanatic Christian Missionaries. Messi is uncomplicated and a wunderkind but a Christian die hard, too. BUT HONESTLY, ENOUGH OF THESE INTELLECTUAL EXHIBITIONS OF JUST PASSING INFO TO EACH OTHER THROUGH EMAILS. WE ARE ALREADY DYING FROM INFORMATION OVERLOAD. THE CALL OF THE HOUR (as Mr. Rajiv Malhotra has echoed millions of times, here) IS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO UNITE AND DO SOMETHING. LEARN TO ASK FOR HELP FROM OTHERS AND FROM THE EXPERIENCED (AND IT WILL COME) BUT PLEASE GET INTO SOME ACTION MODE!..." Ganesh follows up: "KOLKATA: After their 1-0 win over Venezuela in a FIFA international friendly, Argentina paid homage to the Mother  House, the headquarters of the Mother Teresa founded Missionaries of Charity, though their star striker Lionel Messi gave it a miss due to security concerns. Messi, who was nearly mobbed even by security forces during the presentation ceremony on Friday night trying to get a share of photos, remained at the team hotel. The team members spent more than half an hour as they went to the Mother's tomb on the ground floor before heading to the chapel where the Mother used to attend prayers, sources at the Missionaries of Charity said. Confirming that Messi did not come, the source said, "The main person (Messi) did not come. But they came in quietly, and visited the usual places. They left silently, paying homage to the Mother. They also visited Mother's room..."

September 7 Changanassery Archdiocese plans Christian exclusive township http://expressbuzz.com/states/kerala/changanassery-plans-for-exclusive-township/310564.html THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Syro-Malabar Church in the state has a.. September 7 Video of my Dallas talk http://www.breakingindia.com/hinduunitydaydallas2011/ This video is of my Dallas talk last month. YouTube wrote to us promoting our account to be able to... September 7 Equality and Inclusion: Progress and development of Scheduled Castes Ganesh posts: "Rakesh Bahadur, Kamlesh Kapur, Ram Sidhaye and Dallas Boyd of the Equality and Inclusion team have brought out the report which has the potential to ensure equality and inclusion in societies all over the globe. Dr. Kalyanaraman and Dr. Vijaya Rajiva's article in HK on the above topic can be found in HK. Below are links to the same. ... link to the 110 page report that can be downloaded." September 7 My blog - Why caste system is birth based I have compiled part-2 of my series on caste aversion, detailing how varna system transformed in to caste system.  ... "..

RMF Summary: Week of July 25 - 31, 2011

July 26

Protest 'Sita sings the blues' showing at NY's Starlight Pavilion ! Srikumar posts: ...We have received complaints from several Hindus about the showing of a film 'Sita sings the blues' at the Starlight Pavilion in New York next Thursday (21st July). 'Sita sings the blues', which its producers claim to be based on Sage Valmiki's Ramayan, is actually a denigrating parody of the Ramayan ! Through this animation film, animator Nina Paley has shown irreverent parallels between her own heartbreak and the divine story of Lord Rama and Mother Sita,... Patanjali notes: "The organizers and host have decided to cancel showing the film after mountain of complaints from the Hindu community." Ramanan makes an important point: "Love this one in particular: "In the Ramayana, Sita is only a footnote in the story, but obviously my film is about Sita and her suffering." Source: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/faq.html The above statement by Ms. Paley shows her ignorance of the epic. Valmiki has this to say about his own work: ... The entire epic Ramayana is primarily about the sublime conduct of Sita, and secondly about the slaying of Ravana.   Chitra adds: " ... It's interesting to me that this movie "Sita Sings the Blues" has resurfaced – and that the main thrust of the anger at this movie is still focused at Nina Paley. I was furious at this movie.  But not so much at Paley.  Paley is a gifted animator – her interpretation of the character of Rama and the plight of Sita is in line with western perspectives – I found no real surprises there.   To me, the real significance of her movie and the reaction to it is what it tells us about our fellow Indians. You see, I was INCENSED by the commentary of her "shadow puppet" narrators of the Ramayana.  To me, they were a painful reminder of how utterly (almost deliberately) clueless some Indians are about their own cultural legacy.  Some remarks by the "shadow puppets" were so asinine I flinched. " Anila suggests: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzTg7YXuy34>]. Just click below the video, click on the Flag. In the drop-down menu, select 'Violent & Repulsive Content'. With enough votes, this video will have to be taken off YouTube." Rajiv Malhotra comments: When this movie was being made, our very own Anju Bhargava (yes, the Hindu American leader featured in Breaking India for her complicity with the Christian nexus) was approached by the makers. She gave them a favorable reinforcement of the script, seeing it as women's  empowerment. Only after it came out several years later, and caused a stir, did Anju realize the problem she had been a part of. This is just one example of how ill-informed many of our "leaders" tend to be - focusing to build their personal profile with appointments, high profile publicity, etc. Serious research, reading, intellectual inquiry, etc., is not natural to them...  Manas notes the response of a known Hindu baiter: "Salil Tripathi takes the opportunity of Paley's movie show being cancelled to throw muck on Hindus, for among other things, critiquing Coutright [for his concoctions], etc. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/24/sita-sings-the-blues-hindu-film-causes-a-stir-in-queens.html Instead of calling for "bans", there should be a scholarly analysis and pointing out of mistakes." Doclse007 responds: "Having seen this movie for the first time a few days ago I am in a position to make an informed comment. The movie distorts the Ramayana and makes a mockery of what we have held sacred for generations. If Ms. Paley wanted to make a movie about her life based on a love story in popular literature then there are many to choose from, including the works of Shakespeare. West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet. The Ramayana does not lend itself to this kind of treatment and therefore her argument about artistic freedom lacks substance. .."    July 27  Is the Hajj an act of apostasy? Comments? Namaste, In view of the recent discussion about the Taj Mahal, would anyone care to weigh in on this article by Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch. Harihara responds: "But the idea of drawing similarity between "Kaaba" with "Kaabali" is wrong. Kapalishwara is one of the epithets for Shiva. Since Tamizh doesn't have a proper phonetics background especially, after the admixture of Sanskrit words, Tamilians pronounce both "p" and "b" accordingly it presents to their tongue..." Chitra is thankful: " Thank you for that much-needed clarification,  Mr. Subramanian. I don't doubt that ancient Hindus had cultural and trade contacts with Arabs, but the kind of  etymological  eureka-moments such as the following excerpt from the article make me wince and reach for the Hajj-Mola..." July 27 Retired IB Officer on Binayak Sen-- Western interests behind Sen's ' ... From: Madhukar Ambekar <madhukar_ambekar@...> Date: Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 1:41 AM Subject: Retired IB Officer on Binayak Sen To: Madhukar Ambekar... July 27 Re: More of the myth-- Growth of schedulaed castes and tribes N. S. Rajaram provides yet a useful reference. One of many expert recommendations you will find within these archives. "Please read K.S. Lal's "The Growth of Scheduled Tribes and Castes in Medieval India" for a scholarly study of this issue. Lal was an outstanding scholar worth reading" July 27 Report of my Waves talk http://www.waves-india.com/WAVES_Rport_Rajiv_Lecture.htm... July 28 List of "Secular" Intellectuals named hosted by Ghulam Nabi Fai Sagar posts: S. Gurumurthy, has written an article which has a list of "seculars" and "liberals" named by FBI as guest of Ghulam Nabi Fai(who was recently arrested). The... July 29 More of the myth NeeShabda writes: The task of breaking the 'Aryan Myth' is arduous and never ending, but as all informed educated Indian it is our individual responsibility to continue the work that Rajiv Malhotra has started - to confront and open a dialogue with the Indologist, teacher, layman, anyone who is perpetuating the myths and downgrading the Indian civilization. I happen to find this site called mrdowling.com," and read some of his online course on India. I am sharing some chapters with all of you..." Neeraj asks: "Till now, I have not been able to find any reference of untouchability as a practice in Hindu/Sanatan/Vedic/Arya dharm, on the basis of caste. Can anyone provide such a reference " Raj provides many useful links in his response: "Further reading: [1] *MUST READ* - By Vishal Agarwalji - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/67764904/The-Hindu-Caste-System-Vishal-Agarwal [2] Section D here - http://www.letindiadevelop.org/irochtc/02.shtml [3] Related messages posted here earlier: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/102 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/129 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/184 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/221 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/440 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/433..." Senthil provides some feedback: "Our society is NOT based on any book or authority, and hence it would be futile to find any reference to untouchability in scriptures.. we are a civilization and NOT religion.. As a person coming from rural side, and who have seen untouchability practiced right in my home, i am putting forth the following reality.. 1. Untouchability is NOT practiced just by brahmins.. but by all jaathis.." Vishal is emphatic: "... Hindus are not a Bookish religion but the Shastras are the prime authority for what is correct and what is wrong. Sadachar ranks below shruti and smriti in terms of what constitutes authority in matters of Dharma. Traditions can be correct or incorrect, and they change with time anyway. So they CANNOT constitute what is Sanatana Dharma. The localized, parochial version of Dharma that you conceive has largely ceased to exist today and surely does not belong to the future..."   Mrithak posts: "Below is the quote that I copied from Sankarachaarya's Brahma-sutra-bhaasya regarding the great achaarya's objection to teaching the vedas to the sudras. As i see it the explanation given by Sri Sankarachaarya is more of sanskrit gymnastics. BRAHMA-SUTRA-BHASYA (Topic 9: PSEUDO SUDRA, I.iii.34 & 35)..."  Vishal responds: "... Shri Shankaracharya was conditioned by the times when he wrote his commentary. The context of the story is this: The entire story emphasizes the point that while it is important to be Dharmic, it is not sufficient. Brahmavidya trumps Dharma. Now, Janshruti was a philanthropic and a just king but he had this ego that by his benevolence, everyone in his kingdom was happy. However, the swan belittled his glory in front of that of Raikyamuni Shaktayana (The cart owner, Muni of the Raikas). The very name of the Muni indicates that he was a nomad and therefore not an Arya in the conventional sense, but a Shudra. However, Janashruti judged Raikya by his external appearances and tried to BUY the wisdom that Raikya had by offering him money. Raikya in turn addressed the despearate king, who was grieving for having been slighted relative to Raiky as a Shudra (cock a snook, so to say). It was only when Janashruti offered his daughter as a wife to Raikya that the latter relented.... ...The teaching that Raikya gave to Janashruti also emphasizes that Brahmavidya trumps Dharma (or that excellent Karma is not sufficient for Moksha, and Brahmavidya is the crown of punyakarma)... ...  So far from debarring Shudras from acquiring Brahmavidya, the Upanishad actually shows how a Shudra teacher gives the teaching to a Kshatriya. Likewise, the following story of Satyakama Jabala in the Upanishad shows how a child of unknown parentage becomes qualified to acquire Brahmavidya by virtue of being truthful because a truthful person cannot be a 'abrahmana' (non brahmana'.... ...Far from being 'casteist', the entire Chhandogya Upanishad is actually a very liberating Scripture that shows that Shraddha of lowly dogs trumps ritual of learned Brahmanas, that Brahmavidya of a nomad trumps royal wealth and good deeds, that truth trumps lineage, and that even a person of a high lineage is not really a Brahmana unless he knows the Brahmavidya. And the seventh Prapathaka in turn has the story of Narada and Sanatkumara which shows how all bookish knowledge is of no worth when compared to Spiritual wisdom." July 31 book on similar intervention in south america by Rockefeller, Evange Thy Will Be Done: The Conquest of the Amazon : Nelson Rockefeller and Evangelism in the Age of Oil [Paperback]Gerard Colby ...

RMF Summary: Week of May 16 - 22, 2011

May 16

Premendra - Comparing caste in India and Europe
Rajiv Malhotra provides a link: CASTE SYSTEM IN EUROPE (by Priyadarshi)

May 16

Numerous criticisms posted against Outlook review - at their web site Rajiv Malhotra responds to skewed Outlook review of BI: I went through the comments posted at the review site and the majority are direct in criticizing the review and reviewer. Below are a few samples of this:

...

My Comment on the Outlook book review I am sharing a long response I just posted to Gita Ramaswamy's review on Outlook India. If the moderators don't delete it, you will see it as Comment # 47... May 17 Shame on you Gita Ramaswamy and Shame on Outlook! Dear Editor, As an Indian settled in the USA for a few decades I used to look up to the articles from Outlook as a way of keeping up with India. I had also... May 17 Fw: [RISA-L LIST] Fw: Dalit Koenraad Elst posts:   Dear listfolk, Since the Religion In South Asia list is secret, I have deleted the names of the people whom I quote and reply to in the post reproduced below: .. ... From (a famous religious studies profesor): > Not to take sides in this discussion about the acceptability of the term "Dalit," but it should be noted that scholars in India have begun to use "Dalit" as a shorthand for Untouchables/Scheduled Castes of all sorts.< From (another famous religious studies profesor): >The reason I generally opt for "Dalit" rather than "Harijan," is precisely because I feel it has shed a lot of the political connotations it once had.  This is because the "Dalit" has come to be widely used by those who have no affiliation with Ambedkarite politics---for example, it seems to be the preferred term in India's English language media, as well as among scholars.  Like a lot of terms that were originally coined with some political intent (e.g. "gender," "African American") it has gradually shed these connotations as its usage has been mainstreamed.< ... Do read Rajiv Malhotra & Aravindan Neelakandan’s book *Breaking India*, about the machinations behind the Dalitist and Dravidianist discourse. Many of you have applauded Edward’s Said’s thesis on “Orientalism”, promoting distrust of the ulterior motives of Orientalist scholarship. This new book does the same job, only better and more pertinent to our own work. Whereas Said’s work focused on Islamic Studies, dealt with the past and was riddled with factual errors, Malhotra and Neelakandan’s work is thoroughly documented, fully up-to-date and focuses on Indian Studies. It traces the political entanglements of the trend-setting scholarship on India’s ethnic, religious and caste divisions.... May 17 Breaking India started with Gandhi Koenraad Elst, a member of this group, reviewed this book - it says here that Gandhi could have very well been the root cause of Christian incursion into modern day India. That he was partial to its theology is well known,... May 18 Gautam Sen's letter to Outlook Dear Editor, Book reviewers are free to express their opinions and prejudices though a modicum of acknowledgement when they are doing so would be appropriate.... May 18 'Breaking India' - Continuity N. S. Rajaram posts: The notorious USCIRF is being systematically and strategically encouraged by the 'Indian' American Christians... May 19 "Breaking India" book review by Rina Mukerji in d-sector.org The unholy mission is on By Rina Mukherji 18 May 2011 India has been under attack for more than a millennium. The wicked attempts to destroy its civilization and denigrate the beliefs of the natives continue unabated despite the nation achieving political independence from the Europeans after the painful partition. More and more researchers have begun to expose the evil intentions of the west For decades, texts and tomes published in the West have been bombarding us with theories that India is primarily made up of distinct `Aryan' and `Dravidian' racial strains, with the `tribals' and `dalits' comprising the other distinct groups. A lie, oft repeated, often comes to be accepted as the truth. strategy. And there is no dearth of educated Indians who are willing to advance this anti-India agenda in return for little material comforts and recognition.... May 19 Why India is a Nation The author of this article [Sankrant Sanu] also points out lot of points which Rajiv has pointed out in his book. ... May 19 Breaking India has a whole chapter on USCIRF Many folks have been recently circulating emails complaining about USCIRF. These are sporadic, short-lived flareups once in a while on this. Like all emotional... May 19 This thread elicited a lot of responses and has been covered in the previous week's summary. To make a long story short, Outlooks appears to have published a poor quality polemic by Gita Ramaswamy as a "book review", while also rejecting the submission by Vijaya Rajiva, upsetting a lot of BI readers. Outlook rejects Dr. Vijay Rajiva's book review and publishes a nasty http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?271815 This is not surprising but unprofessional - what else is new? May 19 In which the question: Who is Gita Ramaswamy appears to be answered, thereby perhaps revealing why her book "review" turned out the way it did. Gita Ramaswamy-Ashoka Fellow - What is ASHOKA-Take a look Ram Sidhaye investigates:  Gita Ramaswamy is Fellow at Ashoka. What is ASHOKA organization? The name Ashoka is deceptive. It is not an Indian organization. Take a look at Leadership Team, Senior Leadership, Board of Directors and Partners. Leadership Team Bill Drayton, C.E.O. and Founder ... May 20 Shri Ram Sidaye Ram Sidaye's research into Gita Ramaswamy's background and association with Ashoka is important. It reinforces chapter 15 in the book Breaking India. ...   May 20 Dr. Shrinivas Tilak's rejoinder to Outlook This has been posted by Shrinivas Tilak on Sulekha. Review of Breaking India by Gita Ramaswamy: a response by Dr Shrinivas Tilak* When I first heard of... May 21

Yankee Hindus Dear friends, I am yet to read ‘Breaking India.”. But I have read ‘Castes of the Mind’ by Prof.Nicholas Dirks of Columbia University, and know about...

RMF Summary: Week of May 9 - 15, 2011

May 12 Princeton Univ. Debate - Video Uploaded http://breakingindia.com/videos?id=118 There are several videos from the event listed in a table of contents at the right. We link to some of the videos below: The 'Breaking India' book launch: The Princeton University Debate with Nehemiah Thompson May 13 Yankee Hindutva Strikes Vijaya Rajiva notes:  This piece ' Yankee Hindutv Strikes' (May 23, 2001, Outlookindia) is not really a review but a trashy polemic against Breaking India and it is by someone called Gita Ramaswamy, possibly one of the new journalists hired by Outlookindia. One wonders what her qualifications are to review this book. It is full of errors and makes no attempt to outline the main arguments of the book... ...  ...I had sent my article/review 'Breaking India: Some Reflections' to Outlookindia, but it was politely rejected, even though I had sent in my academic credentials etc... This thread is continued here. May 14 Fwd: Aryan Invasion Theory Sent by Murali: Director Bal Ram Singh, Ph.D. Phone: 508-999-8588 Fax: 508-999-8451 Date: July 3, 2006 PRESS RELEASE Scientists Collide with Linguists to Assert Indigenous origin of Indian Civilization Comprehensive population genetics data along with archeological and astronomical evidence presented at June 23-25, 2006 conference in Dartmouth, MA, overwhelmingly concluded that Indian civilization and its human population is indigenous. In fact, the original people and culture within the Indian Subcontinent may even be a likely pool for the genetic, linguistic, and cultural origin of the most rest of the world, particularly Europe and Asia. Leading evidences come from population genetics, which were presented by two leading researchers in the field, Dr. V. K. Kashyap, National Institute of Biologicals, India, and Dr. Peter Underhill of Stanford University in California. Their results generally contradict the notion Aryan invasion/migration theory for the origin of Indian civilization. ....  ... Bal Ram Singh, Ph.D. Director, Center for Indic Studies University of Massachusetts Dartmouth 285 Old Westport Road Dartmouth, MA 02747 Phone: 508-999-8588 Fax: 508-999-8451 Email: bsingh@... Internet address: http://www.umassd.edu/indic  May 15 5-min video by ex-KGB man on psychological warfare against nations Sameer writes: If you watch this video, you will understand how pervasive and systematic the process is that the book discusses... May 15 IndiaToday reports on foreign funds fueling religious conversions to Manas reports: Independent churches mushroom across India attracting foreign funds ..