Showing posts with label Anju Bhargava. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Anju Bhargava. Show all posts

The Chicago Story: How CPWR was Exposed

A controversy was triggered in September 2013, when a group that called itself the 'Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions" (CPWR) decided to withdraw from the event that VHP-America was organizing in Chicago to honor Swami Vivekananda as part of his 150th birthday celebrations. This post summarizes the incident in three parts:

part 1) the discussion this triggered in the forum, the research done by Hindus in finding out who supported the boycott, who CPWR really was, the impact the debate in this forum had on the subsequent trajectory of events post-withdrawal. Particularly shocking is that CPWR turned out to be not what it appears on the surface. Some fact-checking indicated that this organization was incorporated in 1988 and had nothing to do with 1893 World parliament of religions that Vivekananda graced! Stunning how and disturbing why the Hindu representatives signed up for this without doing any background check!

part 2) the positive outcome (resounding win) for Hinduism with its figurehead Hindu representatives resigning, and finally,

part 3) A manifesto for Hindu representation in Interfaith bodies, going forward and being more proactive.

Part-1
The thread was initiated by a post by NS that posted a news article carried by HinduismToday.com, that is summarized below:
"... a respectable interfaith organization the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR) decided to withdraw from the event that VHPA was organizing in Chicago.

VHP (America) is holding event marking 150th birth anniversary of Swami Vivekanda which will feature Baba Ramdev as the chief guest (see here). It is "co-hosted" by many Hindu organizations based in the USA. Air India is also listed as one of the co-host.
120-year old CPWR is the organization that invited Swami Vivekanda to Chicago in1893. In a statement issued today [see here, issued by Mary Nelson, CPWR's Executive Director] CPWR said:

"We honor Swami Vivekananda and that legacy he left creating interfaith cooperation to build a just, peaceful, and sustainable world. Our organization was not informed that an event we were asked to co-sponsor was also co-sponsored by organizations promoting controversial political positions. While we do honor and promote the ideals of Swami Vivekananda, we respectfully withdraw our name from any co-hosting or co-sponsorship of the 'World Without Borders' event and any connection to this event or its other co-sponsors."

....Coalition Against Genocide (CAG) [see here for a list of members--it is mostly comprised of Muslim, leftist and Christian groups] welcomed the move by the CPWR to disassociate itself VHPA's event...

(another post records CAG's cheerleading press release, summarized here)
"
Coalition Against Genocide (CAG - http://coalitionagainstgenocide.org/ ), a broad alliance dedicated to justice and accountability for the Gujarat pogrom of 2002 (sic), and for continued violations of human rights in Gujarat (sigh), today welcomed the resolution adopted by the Board of Trustees of the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR), ....

In a letter to CPWR Executive Director Dr. Mary Nelson, CAG spokesperson Dr. Raja Swamy congratulated the CPWR on advancing the cause of interfaith harmony...."
".....This incident exemplifies attempts by Hindutva organizations to legitimize their virulent politics by appropriating the legacies of important historical personalities such as Swami Vivekananda," said Dr. Raja Swamy, ...."

Prasad's response (the text is a bit garbled in the yahoo forum, but I have provided the gist) was to respectfully  request that two Hindu members associated with CPRW resign their posts in protest:
" Anju Bhargavji and Anant Rambachanji,
whatever be the outcome of your efforts to reinstate cpwr's sponsorship, I request you both resign as directors of this organization. When they cancelled the commitment they made without consulting you, your presence there does not matter, ..."

Arun also had the same opinion:
"... shows that how artbitrarily [CPWR] is run and their decision process is biased and undemocratic. It also shows that how intolerant the leadership of CPWR has become over the years to promote their own agenda and politics. I believe that all board members of CPWR, who were not consulted for this decision should resign..."

Vishal disagreed and favors an alternative approach:
"..Non-cooperation is less ineffective than fighting from within."

Rajiv's response: What "fighting from within?" I dont see them having done that. In fact, in one case I was explicitly told that the person WILL NOT FIGHT to risk sticking her neck out...

To fight from within the representative must first spell out the positions being represented, and the policy for fighting for each of these. Otherwise its not even clear as to WHAT they might fight for, assuming they decide to fight at all?

The only fighting going on is positioning personal careers, prestige, glamor, PR, etc...

Furthermore, there is also the issue of COMPETENCE beyond intentions. Even if the intentions could be turned around, there remains the question whether a given person is cut out for the job. Our community must learn to hold Hindu leaders accountable for performance just like political leaders are hired/fired in elections if they do not perform. Lets end this idolatry based on personalities."

Next, there is a very interesting (but tangential) post by AJ and a response by Rajiv about the forum responding by circulating emails.

A professor (VR) from Bangalore was upset by the actions of CPWR:
"The [CPWR] under the influence of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Hindu leaders has already ditched the ideals of Swami Vivekananda and buried them."

Abhimanyu posts the findings from his investigative work on CPWR. This appears to be the first of a few crucial posts that began to open people's eyes to what this CPWR really is, and we carry this report almost fully. Also important to note, that he also looks at possible links to the 2014 General elections in India.

"1.  Who is the Coalition Against Genocide?  -  this is a notorious nexus of Indian Communists/ Islamists / Christian Missionaries - with a clear mission to demonize Hinduism and Hindus around the world.  People like Raja Swamy are prominent members of FOIL and its sister groups like the Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (the same group that attacked the IDRF and the Hindu Students Council). On this blog, I have written extensively about FOIL and its network, building on Mr. Malhotra's Breaking India as well as some other works out there.

2.  CAG, CSFH, FOIL, IAMC (Indian American Muslim Council) are partners in this...  They were also behind the 2005 campaign to block Narendra Modi's visa to the US.  Angana Chatterjee is one of the key players in this nexus also.

3.  Recently, Raja Swamy, Biju Mathew, Shabnam Hashmi, Ram Puniyani, Harsh Mander, etc. Have started a website against Narendra Modi, called Pheku.in.  This site purports to expose Modi's "lies" and discredit his model of development.  I have recently written about this on my blog as well.  It is interesting to note that this Pheku.in site is registered in Texas, which gives away its interconnections with foreign groups like FOIL that are attempting to "break India".  They also sympathize with and also hold terrorist Ishrat Jahan in high respect.

...
5.  Initially, when the CPWR issued a statement of withdrawal, there were two signatures - one of Mary Nelson, the Exec Director and the other one of Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  Now, if you go to their site, you only see Mary Nelson's signature!  Mr. Mujahid's signature has been "whitened out", but one can clearly see a small black dot of a spot missed by the web artist next to Nelson's signature!  Why did CPWR remove his signature?"

Rajiv comment: Good 'forensic' work. I wonder why our eminent "Hindu representatives" have been sleeping through all this and woke up only after we gave them a jolt?

Karthik adds:
"...the question of "Secularism" has entered the public discourse in a big way. Specifically, it is being suggested that a person who is otherwise suitable to run the country in terms of governance record, should be disqualified on the strength of an alleged lack of commitment to "secularism", which is a threat to the "Idea of India."

I have written a blog post about this here:   As you can see, the post makes reference to many of Rajiv ji's ideas.."
 




Vishal clarifies: "Let me clarify. Resigning from posts does not achieve much. I am not privy to private information on whether these two members will fight it out or not. However, if they resign, if opens the possibility of some rabid leftist (who is Hindu in name only) to replace them and then and work positively against our Dharma in the future..."

Rajiv comment: Let me clarify. Defending incompetence does not help much. It lowers the standard and makes incompetence the new normal. Someone could also say, "let the corrupt, incompetent government in India remain, because if they leave we could get someone worse". Let us stop operating in fear...

The point is that Hindus never appointed these individuals in the first place. Secondly, they have not produced any resistance from our side by way of offering criticism of the organization's positions. Only now they are running around doing PR and press releases because we have exposed this scandal. ...

...There is a prominent man [] who tried to pressure me to not critique Anju Bhargava in my book, but that failed. He even went to Swami Dayananda Saraswati along with Anju and they camped there for a few days asking swamiji to withdraw his invitation for me to speak at the ashram's annual day; but swamiji refused to do so. I am also aware that other organizations have pressure points. Such "networking" notwithstanding, we must be objective and not get influenced by linkages. Otherwise we are no better than the dominant nexuses that operate this way except that they have been winning. We must hold ourselves to an objective standard in evaluating leadership."  

 Rajiv further comments:
"People have asked me to suggest what "our" Hindu representatives on CPWR must go at this point. I feel they ought to write an open letter to CPWR that gets posted widely by them. It should make the following points. I am not suggesting exact language, merely the main points they should cover:

Letter to CPWR:
  1. We as practicing Hindus, and as individuals representing the interests of Hinduism in CWPR, are very upset at the decision that was made to boycott Swami  Vivekananda's anniversary celebrations, and we would like that decision reversed immediately.
  2. We are troubled that we were never consulted or involved in such a major decision being made, which makes our Hindu community doubt whether we speak for them in this forum at all. It would be unimaginable, hypothetically, for you to make a similar decision against Islam without even bothering to tell in advance and consult the Muslim representatives in your organization.... 
  3. It is clear that the process leading to your decision was opaque rather than transparent. Individuals with personal agendas and political pressure acted secretly rather than through a process carried out in an above board manner....
  4. We are sending each of the trustees and each member of all committees at CPWR a copy of an important book, titled, "Breaking India", which exposes the kinds of nefarious activities by many persons who acted in making this recent decision. In the interest of transparency and allowing all sides of an issue to be heard, we seek the right to articulate the point of view of many Hindus. After your review of this book, we would like CPWR to host a public debate on the charges and allegations being made in this book - concerning the nexus that is operating to undermine Hinduism. Let both sides speak and debate each other in an amicable manner. This is the true spirit of open intellectual discourse that CPWR claims to represent...
We hope to hear from you very soon on these requests which we feel are fair....In case you find our request unacceptable, then please consider this as our letter of resignation from your organization.
Signed...
.............................
My closing remarks: I would like us to pressure all Hindu representatives to put out such a letter. Let their loyalties become clear. We must get past goody-goody PR behavior. We have had enough nonsense from self serving leaders.


Sheshadri notes:
"...FOIL is dead against Infinity Foundation. I know for a fact how FOIL fanatics try -by hook or crook - to foil university programs sponsored by Infinity Foundation. They are more aware of the power of genius of Hindu Thought than most of our own people. When "Sarve janaH sushi no bhavantu" catches up there can be no room for "workers of the world unite" or "only my god is god" creeds. No wonder we will face in future more virulent as well as subtle forms of opposition. They will leave no stone unturned - literally" 


Abhimanyu uncovers more details:
"Ubaid Shaikh, co-founder of CAG, IAMC (Indian American Muslim Council, formerly known as Indian Muslim Council USA) and founder of Indian Muslim Advocacy Network (Imannet, whose site www.imannet.com, has been "under construction" for who knows how long) is friends with Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  Mujahid is the founder of Muslim Peace Coalition USA, another advocacy group that is very popular in advancing the image of Islam and Peace.  See the two links below:

In the above link, these guys, especially Ubaid, while condemning the attack on thw Wisconsin Gurudwara, nefariously weaves in connection to "hate-filled" Americans and "Hindu Extremists" (READ RSS, VHP, etc.), saying how these Hindus inspire hate amongst Americans!
Check out this second link -

In here, these two orgs squarely blame the Norway killings as being inspired by "Hindu Nationalist Ideology"!"
 
Rajiv shares a response from Anju only briefly summarized here, stating her position:
"I want you to know that both Anant and I have fought really hard and supported VHPA in this matter as you know from the joint statement we sent out. However we are outvoted. There are people who have their own agendas.  Since I found out I have spent most of the time on this. Negative attacks on me which incite people will not help the Hindu cause..."

Rajiv's response:

".... troubling items in your statement.

1) Earlier you had said that this decision by CWPR was made without your knowledge and you and Anant were taken by surprise. Only afterwards you reacted (once the community started pressuring you). Now you saying that you and Anant were outvoted (and hence knew of the decision being considered). Which version is true?
2) Secondly, if there was a vote in CPWR, when was it held ? Who voted for the resolution and who voted against it? Also, who drafted and proposed the resolution for vote? These names must be made public as per the norms of any public foundation. The community must know this, and its YOUR JOB to keep us informed.

3) Thirdly, I disagree with your view that the Hindus you claim to represent should have no right to criticize you regardless of your performance. You did not consult any of us prior to the resolution against Swami Vivekananda's anniversary event being put out as a press release. Now you expect us to support you even though you have not shown competence in representing us. ...Please note that the same pattern occurred in another organization where you represented Hindus for one year. I documented that fiasco in my book, BREAKING INDIA, and it bothered you. ....

4) You write that the "smart and strategic" thing would be for us to focus on those who do such negative things against us. But how can we put our focus on such persons unless and until YOU disclose their names in detail - I mean EVERY ONE OF THEM.

5) You seem only concerned about "negative attacks" on you. You did not say a word about how the conduct of CPWR that you serve has attacked Hinduism, which is larger than any one individual like you or me....

6) Finally, now that you and Anant have acknowledged that CPWR has hoodwinked the Hindus, should you not resign in protest - thereby sending the message that you are not pets sitting there to legitimize their actions in exchange for being given some "importance"? Please consider that such a bold action by you and Anant would boost your standing, because it would show that Hindus cannot be taken for granted as a bunch of morons led by morons. I hope you are now aware (as per Arvind Kumar's post) that Ms. Nelson who runs CPWR is falsely advertising that CPWR was somehow linked to the [1893] Chicago event named the World Parliament of Religions. She has cleverly used the name of the original organization and you did not know this earlier"


Part-2
In another thread, Arvind [mentioned in Rajiv's response above to Anju] posts some startling findings on CPWR that totally exposes their membership, agenda, and modus operandi. We only briefly summarize his post. Read it in its original form to grasp the full impact of what CPWR was up to.

" ...This group was formed only in 1988 (Document from Sec of State office is below).
The attempt to claim the legacy of Vivekananda by a group calling itself the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions is a FALSE PORTRAYAL of the truth. The page on their website purportedly containing the history of the organization contains a timeline that starts in 1893.
....
...had nothing to do with organizing the event in 1893 at which Vivekananda spoke! To learn about the real organizers of the event in 1893, click here and here (original news items from 1893). ..
Mary Nelson is a "progressive" ... For evidence that she belongs to a "progressive" group, click here.


Mary Nelson has also been associated with Rod Blagojevich ... ...If their values are like those of Rod Blagojevich's,
...
  INCORPORATED ONLY IN 1988!!!
CORPORATION FILE DETAIL REPORT

 Entity Name COUNCIL FOR A PARLIAMENT OF THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS  File Number 55101108
 Status ACTIVE
 Entity Type CORPORATION  Type of Corp NOT-FOR-PROFIT
 Incorporation Date (Domestic) 05/27/1988  State ILLINOIS
 Agent Name MARY K NELSON  Agent Change Date 09/26/2012
 Agent Street Address 70 EAST LAKE ST #205  President Name & Address
 Agent City CHICAGO  Secretary Name & Address
 Agent Zip 60601  Duration Date PERPETUAL
 Annual Report Filing Date 04/15/2013  For Year 2013
 Old Corp Name09/22/1988 - COUNCIL FOR A PARLIAMENT OF WORLD RELIGIONS

Rajiv comment:
" I am glad Arvind brought this to our attention. Does it mean our "Hindu reps" did not do any due diligence all this while - just joined it and started serving its interests? It turns out the woman Ms. Nelson who signed the letter against this weekend's Vivekananda event is the same person who formed this organization 25 years ago. Falsely advertised to be formed in 1893 to promote the spirit of Vivekananda, it was actually formed recently just to capitalize on that event's prestige. Moreover, it is NOT operating in the spirit of Vivekananda. In fact just the opposite by insulting him. Nelson is a Christian, linked to World Council of Churches, various Muslim activists like Eboo Patel among other "religious activists"... It is dangerous to "network" in this field esp if one is lazy and not doing one's homework."


Ravi notes:
"It appears that Rajiv's email (especially point #6) has had its impact. Both Bhargava and Rambachan appear to have resigned from CPWR, per this news report.

Rajiv comment:"Indeed. But let us see this as a positive watershed event where Hindus came together to say "enough, we wont accept bias against us any more from any organization that is claiming to be neutral."

Let us consider this as a loss for CPWR. Not having Hindus represented voids their claim to pluralism. Hinduism is the most pluralistic faith of all major ones, and this absence of Hindus should be positioned as something that discredits them. We must engage such inter faith bodies from a position of strength rather than going as beggars to let us in on their terms and treat us as third class." 


Another post from Rajiv sharing more details.
"This thread seems to have had some impact. I am glad.

Some members here sent it to the Hindus who had got themselves appointed on the Council for a Parliament of World Religions, thereby putting pressure on them. Two of them have issued the following statement a short while back:

Joint statement from Anju Bhargava and Anant Rambachan regarding the Chicago event with CPWR

"We, Anju Bhargava and Anant Rambachan, found out on September 14th, through media reports, that the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR) had withdrawn its participation in a Chicago event "World Without Borders," celebrating the 150th Birth Anniversary of Swami Vivekananda. We were not consulted about this decision. Once we found out, we requested  an explanation for the Parliament's decision.  We have also formally requested the Parliament to reverse its decision to withdraw from co-hosting/co-sponsoring the Chicago event. We are working with Parliament to get this issue resolved harmoniously.".

Rajiv comment: Its a good start for them to take such a stand against CPWR, but this must have teeth in it. If such a boycott by CPWR had happened against an Islamic icon's anniversary celebration, the Muslim representatives would not have been caught off guard...As a group claiming to foster harmony this behavior by CPWR is unacceptable. Certainly, many of us disagree strongly with beliefs of some religious organizations but the CPWR would not reject those organizations' legitimacy just because we found them offensive.

We must keep up the pressure on every Hindu who makes a career out of "representing Hinduism"in various bodies; we must demand that he or she must speak up for us assertively even if that is not in their personal vested interest.


Part-3
Sant comments:
" ...he entire episode at CPWR is a wake-up call for the followers of our Hindu faith. ....

May I suggest that we form a group consisting of individuals from leading Hindu organizations in the US. , We (who will be 'we' here) will need to define the qualifications of the persons to serve in such a group along with all so many other details will need to be worked out. ....One of tasks for this organization would be make recommendations to various Inter-Faith organizations on the individual being considered for serving in a significant role, claiming to represent our community.

I was convinced from the outset that CPWR will not reverse their decision once made. In fact, the overwhelming no-votes shows the enormous challenges we face. This could not have been a one-time issues. Majority of their trusteeship's anti-Hindu feeling had to have been present (and visible) all along. ......" 
Rajiv's Notes after the CPWR victory: The Way Ahead
"In light of the recent victory in the CPWR saga, it is  a time to think how the Hindus should proceed going forward.

There will be many opportunities and offers that various individuals and organizations will have to join such movements. So let us formulate a list of principles that any Hindu representative should adopt openly and publicly as part of his or her participation. For instance, I would propose the following kinds of principles that could be turned into a sort of manifesto that our leaders are asked to accept. This is just off the top of my head thinking and we have to sort these out in more detail:

1) We as Hindu leaders oppose various common positions that are biased and lack authenticity, such as the following examples:

- Aryan Invasion/Migration Theories

- Allegations that Hinduism causes caste abuses, women's abuses, minority abuses, etc. Such allegations must bear the burden of proof and Hindus must be given a chance to fair representation in such due processes. Such claims must be put on par with the facts concerning other religions and Hinduism should not get treated more harshly than other in such evaluations.

- Digestion attempts, sameness positions, mapping of Sanskrit non-translatables, mapping of our categories and framework on to others in ways that compromise our distinctiveness and authenticity.

- Theories that Hinduism did not exist until British influence caused Vivekananda and others to manufacture it. Again, we must be given opportunities to debate such nonsensical positions.

- Inaccurate history of various ideas that actually originated in Indian civilization but are taught as originating elsewhere.

2) Major books, reports and speakers who represent the Hindu position on important matters must be given equal pace on forums as the representatives of other major faiths are. These individuals must not be selected in a way to avoid "controversy", as long as the subject matter being presented is of scholarly merit. Changing minds often requires controversy. In other words, Hinduism should no longer be represented by benign, goody-goody types who wont rock the boat for whatever reason. ...

3) Our representatives must fight instances where a Hindu thinker, guru, political leader, organization, etc. gets targeted without due process and without fair and reasonable proof. This is what happened in this latest saga at CPWR. I have personally faced this bias for 20 years because the Hinduphobic side cannot respond to what I write, and its easy to badmouth me just  to try and muzzle me..."

4) "Breaking India" type of forces must be called out, exposed and we must go on the offensive. Just like some forces xyz torpedoed the Vivekananda event, our reps must be able to do such things to others when we have fair and reasonable grounds. For instance, I see lots of "breaking India" individuals and groups enjoying the limelight with no organized resistance from our Hindu representatives.
... If we take this step we will have matured a lot."
Kaajal responds:
"... I'd like to volunteer to take the lead on coming up with our list of expectations for Hindu leaders..."

Rajiv comment: 
"This is a good idea..

My recommended step 1 is to develop a draft on the core Hinduism positions that any future representative must get educated on and must uphold. My initial input is in the post I did yesterday to start another thread on such a "manifesto". Such a draft needs to be debated and then we can lobby for people to adopt it at least as a starting point." 
 

RMF Summary: Week of October 17 - 23, 2011

October 17
Raj Rajarathnam and his LTTE connections
More detailed analysis of Raj Rajarathnam & his LTTE links in this wordpress. http://thuppahi.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/raj-rajaratnam-as-a-kinda-tiger/ Hari Om...

October 17
The Catholic experiment to make yoga popular
http://www.samachar.com/The-Catholic-experiment-to-make-yoga-popular-lkriJTabebi.html?utm_source=top_slot_top_stories&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=samachar_home...

October 17

Bipinchandra Pal on India and Clash of Civilizations (1923)
Bipinchandra Pal on India and Clash of Civilizations (1923) http://kalchiron.blogspot.com/2010/11/bipinchandra-pal-on-india-and-clash-of.html...

October 19
NDTV We the people - Kancha Illaiah talks about Dalit panthers, Dali
This is the first time I hear in a national news channel where Kancha Illaiah is talking about Black panthers vs Dalit panthers, Dalitistan(renaming UP as it...

October 19
India's Casteist Church and Dalit Christians - 24 points
Please visit the link for more such articles http://devapriyaji.activeboard.com/t38197015/dalit-christian-frauds/?r=798322s Note: This article was published by...



October 23
The Jesuit Swamis of India
This is a old post that appeared in Time Magazine with the title "Religion: The Jesuit Swamis of India" on Monday, Apr. 23, 1973. Read more:...


October 23
Clarification on Anju Bhargava
In Breaking India (chapter 15) there is a section critical of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom's biased treatment of India, and especially Hinduism. This was the first ever published report analyzing that institution from India's perspective, and recently a few other persons have written summaries from the book in their own blogs. The chapter goes on to show that under the Obama administration things have not changed, as that body remains under the control of rightwing evangelists. It points out that a new organization specifically set up by Obama to represent religious diversity made recommendations that were drafted by these same rightwing Christian evangelists, right under the nose of the Hindu representative. This representative was Anju Bhargava who served for one year and whose term expired in early 2010. I expressed my disappointment at her complicity in not speaking up formally and publicly against such US initiatives. I did make clear that she had not caused the problems though she went along. I want to clarify certain points on this.
Anju has become very upset and gone to various persons complaining that my criticism has caused "divisiveness". Behind my back, she even asked at least one prominent leader to cancel my talk at a recent major event where I was featured as a prominent speaker. (But her petition was refused, and this leader reaffirmed his full support for me and my book, and asked me to speak at the event as planned.)
I have thought over this matter and one civic leader whom I respect has asked that we make peace in the spirit of broader cooperation. I have decided to make peace with Anju on terms based on principles of truth and harmony.
Anju's main issue with me is that my stance has adversely impacted her Seva project. Here, I wish to clarify that Anju's Seva project is unrelated to my issue of evangelists in India and the US government's tacit support for them. Seva (charity, service, compassion, philanthropy, etc.) is a key part of our tradition. Most mandirs in the US already are engaged in seva of their own initiative. I don't see anything wrong in someone surveying such initiatives to place them under a banner in order to gain visibility for the tradition. So the seva initiative by Anju is good. I don't want people to avoid her seva project on my account - you must evaluate her project on its own merits.
On the issue of US interventions in India via evangelism or other means: That's the core issue in Breaking India and my position gets strengthened as more evidence pours in. The book has shaken up many people and its Tamil edition is finally at the printer. A Hindi edition is being translated and will take a whole year to get ready. So my position on that particular issue stands. I merely want to decouple it from Anju's Seva work, and wish her the very best of success.
My hope is that in future, anyone who represents our community in some official capacity will become very well informed of our major concerns, will set up a  broad advisory committee to consult with on all issues being addressed in the official capacity, and will speak with courage officially even when it is an unpopular stand. As an American minority community we need leaders who will speak up against those causing problems. That will remain my litmus test on leadership....
.....Anju has clarified that she did indeed speak up at the inter-religious council when she was a member. I have acknowledged this in the book. It is not that she didn't try. My issue has been different.

When I got a chance to review the draft that the evangelists had come up with, I wrote a detailed point by point rejoinder and sent it to Anju. I tried to press her to put such a formal statement of dissension on the record and then make it public to add pressure. The council ought to have been told, "this is how my community feels about whats being done here, and as their representative I must put this complaint as my position on the record." People representing a constituency often do this to be faithful to those they represent. They stick their neck out for something that is critical to the constituency. Even in many Supreme Court decisions a minority statement on the record has merit because it asserts a principled disagreement with the decision being passed.

As I wrote, the lesson learned is that a leader representing us in some official body should set up an advisory committee and consult them all along. In this instance I am unaware of any such committee. I was given the draft resolution after World Vision et al had been busily writing the draft for most of the year (why Anju did not bring this up to me earlier beats me)....


Manas asks:
"Without making any comment on Ms. Bhargava, I would like to point out that one of her associates from her seva organization, Ms. Saumya Arya Haas has given credence to a malicious report by the FOIL group (of which Angana Chatterji, who finds mention in BI, is a prominent member) against Indian and Hindu interests in a public post in huff pro. More: here

I was appalled to see that someone who claims to work for Hindu interests sided with those who seek to dismantle our country and civilization. It is understandable that people would wish to not publicly associate themselves with the Hindutva movement since it has been so badly maligned through sustained and organized calumny. But to take the side of people who are consummately against Hindu and Indian interests, and that too in a public forum..."

Rajiv's response:
The above is someone's independent view which I cannot verify or refute. I dont want to restart another round of anger from her as I am way too busy with more important things right now - like organizing what now turns out to be 14 events in India in November for my new book. ..."
 
Patanjali shares:
"The Caribbean Hindu Community also must be represented in all advisory Hindu committee. We are a formidable group in America, and we have many unique concerns about conversion and other issues in the Caribbean and America. I met Anju at a function in New Jersey a few years ago and told her I was from the Caribbean Hindu community. She was not interested in our conversation and walked away. This was not the first time I had a bad experience with this type of behavior. I don't know who elected these Hindus to represent our community."
 
October 23
Illiteracy about Hinduism
Koenraad Elst posts:
"On the Religion in South Asia list, a forum for Indologist members of the American Academy of Religion [AAR], an American professor generally sympathetic to Hinduism makes the following observation in a discussion on the notion of "Hindu theology":

> Whatever case, the lack of a forum for people who practice Hinduism to teach and write constructively about Hinduism is clearly something that Hindus need to create for themselves by producing first rate Hindu theological literature (which must include a meta-reflective discourse on what "Hindu theology" means in a Western context, as
Purusottama suggested).<

> One reason Hinduism is so far behind in establishing the category "Hindu theology" is that Hindus living in Europe and America have done nothing substantial to make sure their traditions are preserved. With a few exceptions, one can say that Hindus' ability to articulate their traditions in the contemporary West is dismal. Other religious traditions have done a better job of creating a space for learned
theological reflection on tradition and modernity, and as a result they have many situations in which they can "do theology."<

To be sure, I know exceptions to this "dismal" rule, a few Hindus (mostly not professional scholars of Hindu religion or related) who do perform well when challenged to represent "the" Hindu viewpoint on a given topic. But by and large, the above observation is impeccable. In most cases, Hindus claiming/asked to speak for Hinduism only represent a narrow segment of Hindu tradition, e.g.
the Arya Samajis (and some others under their influence) who confidently answer monotheist polemicists that Hinduism, contrary to appearances, is not polytheistic at all, thus delegitimizing the vast majority of Hindu practices
from the Mirta & Varuna hymns and the Sarvadevah hymns of the Rg-Veda on down. Two years ago I did a presentation at Balu's Rethinking Religion in India conference (of which I just missed the follow-up session in Pardobice, Czech
Republic, this week) comparing British school textbooks of Hinduism, issued by ISKCON, VHP, Vivekananda centre et al. I found my apprehensions confirmed: they all distort the basic concepts and doctrines of what they present as Hinduism in the direction of their own specific positions. And those were group efforts well thought through by people who at least tried to make it look scholarly,
historically accurate and impartisan; it gets far worse with amateurs, who bore their interlocutors with platitudes like "the wise call the one with many names" (misinterpreted as monotheism) and "vasudhaiva kutumbakam", as if these are the invariable essence to which Hinduism can be reduced.

Most Christians and most Muslims have received some training in the over-all story of their religion, they are like modern people who turn on the TV and get the news from the capital. Most Hindus, by contrast, are like premodern
villagers who only get the story circulating in their own village,...

When I compare Dutch TV's Hindu and Muslim programmes, well, there's just no comparison. ...

....The Muslim programm is for adults, the Hindu programme is at school level.

The catechism-type programmes are always within the confines of the particular tradition of the Hindustani-Surinamese (originally Bhojpuri) immigrant community, Rama-devotional, Tulsidas-centred, unaware of difference in Hinduism through time and space. That would be perfectly normal in a village setting back in Bhojpur, but in a modern context where Hindus are often addressed as
Hindus-in-general, where they meet different schools of Hinduism and are faced with different outsider conceptions/expectations about Hinduism, that just isn't
good enough.

Hindus tend to be illiterate about Hinduism-in-general. That may not be a hindrance to leading a good life, but in the modern dialog of religions, it is a real handicap."

 
N. S. Rajaram comments:
"There is a lot of truth in this. This is on the other hand an
occupational hazards of pluralism."
 
George responds:
"All opinions sounded here are true concerns. Hindus are not equipped to negotiate the evil in our midst. In this regard, without mentioning the Hindus, William James had mentioned this problem in his The Varieties of Religious Experience: A Study in Human Nature. This explains partially why Buddhism is more at ease in the ex-Christian world.

Theology, unlike philosophy, is alien to Hinduism. True religion and true philosophy cannot differ, according to Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, which I endorse. For Hindus, theology was unnecessary so far and in my opinion, it still is for the whole of humankind. The god concept is secondary in all aspects. What is necessary for Hindus is to burn to cinders the so-called theology of the Judeo-Christian thought. This Christian theology in actuality is pure sophistry. The flaw is fundamental. Muslims are part and parcel of it, so it cannot sustain itself alone without the Abrahamic baggage."
 
Venkat comments:
"I am in agreement with what Shri. George has stated below even though I understand the concern that Dr. Elst has brought up. It is true that the Hindus are not in a position to articulate their position and that is primarily because they are completely untrained in their own darshanas, sampradayas, and samskaras. This has largely been true in the last few decades. But I think one should be cognizant of the real issues here.
 
Firstly, some traditional Hindus do articulate their framework very well and are exceptionally knowledgeable about their own sampradayas. A couple of examples would be the Advaita Vedanta list or the Sri Vaishnavism list. These groups are made up of practitioners and a large number of younger people who are well trained and well read about their own sampradaya and are also very well educated and articulate. An area where they have not done well is in taing their message across to the western audience or in dealing with Abrahamic religions as purva paksha. I think that is one area of improvement they should consider.
 
Secondly, some activist Hindus pose a certain danger to Hinduism which they may not recognize. They are often very keen to present Hinduism in the western mould - both the Christian mould and the western value system mould. ...At some stage, Hindus should get ready to take on the very edifice of Abrahamic-western civilization, deconstruct it rationally, and present Hindu traditions as an alternative instead of seeking recognition and acceptance within the western-Abrahamic framework. Shri. Malhotra's Being Different lays the foundation for such an approach.
 
This would mean that there never would be a Hindu theology but there should be a serious and widespread attempt to articulate the traditional Hindu position (not the misguided harmonizing attempts) and fearlessly contrast it against the western paradigms. For example, Jayanta Bhatta's Nyaya Manjari as the framework using which to present a Hindu tradition and evaluate the western-Abrahamic worldview against it."
 
Ram shares a link:
"Came across an article in tamil by the writer Jeyamohan, where he refutes the charge being propagated now by the church and the dravidian parties (dravidar kazhagam etc), commies that hinduism has destroyed the village deities.

He mentions that ten years before in St.Xavier college of Palayamkottai a conference was held by Fr.Jeyapathi on the topic 'People's Gods' for ten days, where such ideas were more emphasized. one person who asked about the status of
the village deities in cultures taken away by desert bloc religions was expelled during that meeting. Jeyamohan gives an excellent insight on how hinduism is a collective ideology and how it accumulates all the deities as tributaries and grows as a major river."

Rajiv's comment: 
In my new book there is a section called "Forest and Desert
Civilizations" in which i explain this key difference. Vedic civilization originated in forest geography while the Abrahamic religions originated in desert tribes. The influence of geography on peoples' psychology gets examined. This section was drastically reduced because of "editorial inputs". In fact it used to be a whole chapter, and even before that, the working title of my book was "Forest and Desert Civilizations". It went through many working titles before the final one." 
 
Vishal adds:
"As to the comments below, I agree whole-heartedly. We here in Minnesota are developing a 13 year curriculum (from Kindergarten to Adult) to teach multi-facted and yet a definitive, non confusing version of Hindu Dharma from a modern perspective. We just came out with a Beta version of the Kindergarten workbook. Knowing that KG kids do not read full sentences, and that they parents are quite ignorance about our Dharma anyway, it is meant to be a guide for parents and teachers to read out to kids and derive morals that are appropriate to and relevant to KG level kids. The parents will perhaps (and perhaps need to) learn more than their kids, while being able to transmit the correct message to their kids.

I'd be glad to email (write to me offline) an ecopy for review. The book will be kept copyright free and will be eventually online... " 
 
Senthil comments:
"1. There are NO practicing Hindus, because, Hinduism cannot be practiced. As per Supreme Court Definition, a Hindu is the one who is NOT a jew, NOT a christian, and NOT a muslim. Can any one practice a religion, which does not have its own independant identity?

2. Adhi sankara classified diverse sets of customs and practices in to 6 mathams. But he kept the philosophical discourse outside these sanmathams.  Customs and traditions of sanmathams are for common people, while the
philosophies (advaita, dwaita & vishistadvaita) are for the learned.. (please correct me, if i am wrong).

What is being done today is a vague attempt to define the Hindu identity, by mixing everything, including the budhism and jainism. Can such thing be called a religion? Yet, most of the people here are obsessed with hindu identity.

3. The actual traditions and customs that can be practiced in our life are the sanmathams.. the smartha tradition, shaiva tradition, vaishnava tradition, has definite and unambigous customs to follow, and corresponding religious practices
and scriptures. .."
 
Rajiv's response:
"The above kinds of issues are what I churned for years and wrote BEING DIFFERENT. Kindly approach my new book with an open mind on all these issues. Rather than defining a positive direct identity as is often being attempted, I look for differences from what we are NOT. Here I use the west as foil for contrast. So a very new approach to identity comes about in which the various kinds of dharmas share key commonalities. This shows how all the internal differences can be accommodated without abandoning the notion of a common identity." 
 
Ganesh posts:
""There is a false sense of insecurity existing among most of us, that relying on shaiva and vaishnava identity will divide us.. (as though we are all united earlier).. They fail to understand that, both shaivites and vaishnavite worship both shiva and vishnu, and it is the preference of god that makes the difference.

For eg, our kula guru belongs to adhi saiva sect, but in his siva pooja, he worships vishnu too, and has vishnu deity in his pooja room"

Best example for this is the Shloka "Shuklam Baradharam Vishnum, Shashivarnam Chatrubhujam, Prasanna Vadanam Dyaayet, Sarva VignopaShantaye"

Sadly, the axe and knife if out by those who want to take egoistic stance on this. Shaivites claim this to be invocation to Bhagawan Vinayaka. Vaishnavites refute saying this is invocation is to Maha Vishnu.

I doubt this was how our great sages and seers wanted it to be. ..."

Rajiv's comment: 
In chapter 3 of BEING DIFFERENT I go into all this under the concept of Integral Unity. This idea is in contrast to the west's notion of unity that I characterize as Synthetic Unity. When a lens of synthetic unity gets applied, the integral unity seems broken into "parts", and these are found to be in mutual tension, and turned into caricatures. So the starting point in dealing with this should be to get a thorough grounding in the difference between integral unity and synthetic unity.

Carpentier notes:
"I am of two minds about the value of "proper" well argued theological systems. They end up creating dogmas and hierarchies, building limits and soon become outdated. Perhaps the Sanathana Dharma is better off, by remaining
pluri-systematic and non-dogmatic. Why should Hinduims imitate Abrahamic messianic religions? In the end the latter become the victims of their own constructions..".

Rajiv disagrees:
"... Our tradition has a strong learned component. I dont like this common argument that goes: Since west misused materialism let us abandon all material pursuits. Or since others messed up their intellectual tradition, lets abandon ours. The Brits said (and foolish gullible Indians accepted) that material wealth like the kohinoor was not good for the so-called "spiritual east".

My new book explains how our intellectual tradition is on solid ground without suffering the same issues as the west. This is why purva paksha gazing at the west is the central methodology used.

I look for specific ingredients in western theology that causes problems, not discarding any and every theology.

In a category where west is deficient (e.g. theology here), it is fashionable to say let everyone else also abandon that category. why? our theology deserves to be evaluated on its own merit."

George comments:
"The one objection I have is the actual critique of the purva paksha, in this case the Christian theology. In my opinion, there is no need to counter-pose a Hindu theology to critique the purva paksha or to find a foothold in arguments as suggested by the "American professor sympathetic to Hinduism", because Christian theology has a basic flaw, which has to do with the basic premises it is built on. So, pointing out the basic flaw is enough to disqualify theology as a valid argument. Theology is pure sophistry and very peculiar to Christians. To construct a theology for Hindus to critique purva puksha or to make a stand in debates is not only unnecessary but would amount to condescension or worse, aping the West (this is where I agree with Carpentier) and in the process also bestow an undeserving intellectual credential to Christian theology. It actually deserves to be incinerated for its intellectual worth" 

Vijaya Rajiva responds to George:
"... Adi Sankara's method is the quintessential purva paksha and it created a Hindu system subsequently called Advaita Vedanta (Monism, as distinct from monotheism). Sri Sankara, ofcourse was debating Nagarjuna's Madhyamika philosophy. The difference between Brahman(Sankara) and Sunya (Nagarjuna) is one of the distinguishing criteria of Hinduism. Western scholars have tried to assimilate Sankara with dependent co origination (Buddhism).

My point here is that Rajiv's method is crucial to his undertaking which is outlinging what Being Different is. In that sense he is not creating a Hindu theology. This is not to say that he is a great mystic in the way that Ramakrishna Paramahamsa or Ramana Maharshi were and they were followers of Sankara.

I found watching his video at the Oberoi Conference which positions his work gives you an idea of what to expect from the book."
 

followup thread
Fw: Fw: [RajivMalhotraDiscussion] Re: Illiteracy about Hinduism
Vijaya Rajiva: Short reply to Carpentier : the danger that you pose is there, but only if for a reader who is non Hindu. As you rightly point out, Hinduism is by its very nature non dogmatic. Take Adi Sankara's Brahma Sutras. You cannot get anything more abstract than the argumentation there and yet he was also amystic as in that other famous work Saundarya Lahiri. His modern disciple Ramkarishna Paramahamsa spoke both about the Nirguna Brahman (Formless) and Saguna (with form) and so on. Or Ramana Maharshi etc.

The above being the case Rajiv's book ( I am freely speculating here, since I have not yet read it) will move easily in both dimensions (no matter even in a small degree since I am not presuming to place him alongside of Adi Sankara and
others) and avoid the pitfall of a dogmatic theology. This is my hope and expectation.


Politically it is important that the book appear, the sooner the better. At a time when India threatens to be overtaken by Bollywood values and other asuric political forces, a constant Hindu resurgence is crucial.
 
Vijaya Rajiva adds:
"I wish to comment on 3 of RVN's insightful remarks on Dr.Elst, Rajiv's new book, and the need for Hindus to pull together.

1....Since I have not as yet read the book I cannot comment further further on the book itself, except to say that I watched Rajiv's video at the Oberoi Conference in the summer and am convinced that I will not be wasting my time reading the book.

However, I also want to add this: there may be many who have attempted a similar project in the vernaculars and these are not easily accessible to the diaspora. There are probably also some in English also.

That is the richness and variety of the country's cultural achievement, the density which is there and is often unsung and unknown, but nevertheless there. I had the privilege of recently interacting with some fine Hindu scholars also.

2. On the question of Dr. Elst and the Belgian tv shows etc. Dr. Elst is an outstanding scholar and is understandably impatient with the high school level standard of these shows. My own response is that these levels are also
important. Adi Sankara himself did distinguish between the learned seekers of Brahma Vidya and the popular aspirants thereof. Neverthless, he considered all the levels important, from the least to the highest. And this he expressed in
his inimical way by stressing Sri Vidya, Saundarya Lahiri, the devotional aspects of popular Hinduism and the need for an action oriented Hinduism. This aspect no doubt influenced Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo and others.

3. RVN is right in saying that Hindu scholars should be diplomatic in their disagreements within their own community, no matter how aggressive they can be with external opponents. The door should be kept open so that a quick and meaningful unity can be established. "
 
Rajiv's response:
This is a wild supposition. Not good enough for a scholar. She is comparing one unknown (my book which she has not read) with an imagined book by some imagined writer. What kind of rigor is that? Also, this does nothing to spread knowledge, which is whats needed. 

 
There were several other illuminating comments that can be read in the original thread.   
 
 
 

  
 
  

RMF Summary: Week of August 15 - 21, 2011

August 16
John Dayal (featured in BI) targets Rs 3,500 crores of GOI funds for
A Crore of Christian Youth may Get Good Education at Government Expense if the Church Wakes Up More than Rupees 3,500 crores to be had in scholarships and...


August 19
Is Sonia Gandhi co-President of a pro-Kashmir separatist organizatio
Rajiv comments: I have blocked posts that divert from the thesis of the book being discussed. Hence, the common chatter on all sorts of issues, scandals and personalities get...
....Here is what was sent to me:
There is a forum of which Sonia Gandhi is co-president: http://nancho.net/fdlap/
It supports actively the separation of Kashmir and ' invite your assistance to expose other movements which desperately require public attention and support':  http://nancho.net/fdlap/fdlalert.html

It is financed by (among others) Soros Foundation and Olaf Palme International Center,. : http://truthgun.com/2011/08/16/did-you-know-look-who-george-soros-is-funding/
Ganesh shares:
"..I think this pdf file of a 15 point programme tells a lot on how to ensure breaking India based on minorities and majority. Look at the impetus of points 3,4,5 and 6.

Here's an ad that appeared to this effect. .."

August 19
New Website and Report Citing Breaking India
Abhimanyu reports on the "forum of Inquilabi Leftists": ... Hinduism is spiritual fascism. Ramayana is a book of colonizers. Hinduism is a religion of violence where the killers have become Gods. NRIs (non-Resident Indians) are slaves of corporate America that are motivated by issues of exploitation and oppression of 'desis' and others in the US. The Forum of Inqualabi Leftists (FOIL) and its affiliates subscribe to the above views on Hinduism, India and the Hindu diaspora..."

This thread below had a lot of discussion, including comments by Vijaya Rajiva, N. S. Rajaram, and several others. It is worth reading this thread in its entirety.
August 19
Selling out to the establishment has its rewards
Rajiv Malhotra shares a HuffPost link and comments:
"Anju Bhargava, the self appointed "Hindu American leader" whose misrepresentation of the community is examined in chapter 15 of Breaking India, has climbed her personal career ever since she played the role of "complicit Hindu" in the US government appointed inter-religious council. (This council, during her one-year term, passed resolutions and recommendations to the federal government that expand the faith-based initiative grants (i.e. mostly to Judeo-Christian groups) in almost every branch of the government, and overseas as well. This means more infiltration by evangelists into various federal agencies, done legally and as a mandate of the government policy...

Breaking India shows how President Clinton succumbed to this pressure from the Christian Right at a time when he was vulnerable and needed their support. His Religious Freedom Act led to setting up of the USCIRF....

... I pleaded without success for Anju to take a principled stand by going on the formal record to state her opposition to the latest initiative. She refused, citing her personal goals in Washington circles. I admit that she was pained having to take a weak stance, but cited personal career factors...

...After a well-orchestrated media blitz, Anju has climbed to being listed as one of the top ten women in world religions today - the only Hindu on it. (See article above.) Wow! Congratulations, Anju, you finally made it into the big league. But I cannot help remark that you sold your soul somewhere along the way."

August 21
Tamil book on War Criminals released
Chennai, India: “Por Kutravali” (meaning ‘War Criminal”)- a book in Tamil language, based on the  UN panel report on Lankan War crimes, published by Manitham Publishers (Chennai)  has come out in the market this week. A Tamil translation of the entire report is printed and about 240 pages of 328 are dedicated to the UN report.  The book’s preface has been written by prominent Tamilians... 

RMF Summary: Week of July 25 - 31, 2011

July 26
Protest 'Sita sings the blues' showing at NY's Starlight Pavilion !
Srikumar posts: ...We have received complaints from several Hindus about the showing of a film 'Sita sings the blues' at the Starlight Pavilion in New York next Thursday (21st July). 'Sita sings the blues', which its producers claim to be based on Sage Valmiki's Ramayan, is actually a denigrating parody of the Ramayan ! Through this animation film, animator Nina Paley has shown irreverent parallels between her own heartbreak and the divine story of Lord Rama and Mother Sita,...

Patanjali notes: "The organizers and host have decided to cancel showing the film after mountain
of complaints from the Hindu community."


Ramanan makes an important point:
"Love this one in particular:
"In the Ramayana, Sita is only a footnote in the story, but obviously my film is about Sita and her suffering." Source: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/faq.html

The above statement by Ms. Paley shows her ignorance of the epic. Valmiki has this to say about his own work:
... The entire epic Ramayana is primarily about the sublime conduct of Sita, and secondly about the slaying of Ravana.
 


Chitra adds:
" ...
It's interesting to me that this movie "Sita Sings the Blues" has resurfaced – and that the main thrust of the anger at this movie is still focused at Nina Paley.
I was furious at this movie.  But not so much at Paley.  Paley is a gifted animator – her interpretation of the character of Rama and the plight of Sita is in line with western perspectives – I found no real surprises there.  
To me, the real significance of her movie and the reaction to it is what it tells us about our fellow Indians.
You see, I was INCENSED by the commentary of her "shadow puppet" narrators of the Ramayana.  To me, they were a painful reminder of how utterly (almost deliberately) clueless some Indians are about their own cultural legacy.  Some remarks by the "shadow puppets" were so asinine I flinched. "

Anila suggests:
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzTg7YXuy34>].
Just click below the video, click on the Flag. In the drop-down menu, select 'Violent & Repulsive Content'. With enough votes, this video will have to be taken off YouTube."


Rajiv Malhotra comments:
When this movie was being made, our very own Anju Bhargava (yes, the Hindu American leader featured in Breaking India for her complicity with the Christian nexus) was approached by the makers. She gave them a favorable
reinforcement of the script, seeing it as women's  empowerment. Only after it came out several years later, and caused a stir, did Anju realize the problem she had been a part of. This is just one example of how ill-informed many of our "leaders" tend to be - focusing to build their personal profile with appointments, high profile publicity, etc. Serious research, reading, intellectual inquiry, etc., is not natural to them... 


Manas notes the response of a known Hindu baiter:
"Salil Tripathi takes the opportunity of Paley's movie show being cancelled to throw muck on Hindus, for among other things, critiquing Coutright [for his concoctions], etc.

Instead of calling for "bans", there should be a scholarly analysis and pointing out of mistakes."
Doclse007 responds:
"Having seen this movie for the first time a few days ago I am in a position to make an informed comment. The movie distorts the Ramayana and makes a mockery of what we have held sacred for generations. If Ms. Paley wanted to make a movie about her life based on a love story in popular literature then there are many to choose from, including the works of Shakespeare. West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet. The Ramayana does not lend itself to this kind of treatment and therefore her argument about artistic freedom lacks substance. .."
  
July 27 
Is the Hajj an act of apostasy? Comments?
Namaste, In view of the recent discussion about the Taj Mahal, would anyone care to weigh in on this article by Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch.

Harihara responds:
"But the idea of drawing similarity between "Kaaba" with "Kaabali" is wrong. Kapalishwara is one of the epithets for Shiva. Since Tamizh doesn't have a proper phonetics background especially, after the admixture of Sanskrit words, Tamilians pronounce both "p" and "b" accordingly it presents to their tongue..."

Chitra is thankful:
"
Thank you for that much-needed clarification,  Mr. Subramanian. I don't doubt that ancient Hindus had cultural and trade contacts with Arabs, but the kind of  etymological  eureka-moments such as the following excerpt from the article make me wince and reach for the Hajj-Mola..."

July 27
Retired IB Officer on Binayak Sen-- Western interests behind Sen's '
... From: Madhukar Ambekar <madhukar_ambekar@...> Date: Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 1:41 AM Subject: Retired IB Officer on Binayak Sen To: Madhukar Ambekar...

July 27
Re: More of the myth-- Growth of schedulaed castes and tribes
N. S. Rajaram provides yet a useful reference. One of many expert recommendations you will find within these archives.
"Please read K.S. Lal's "The Growth of Scheduled Tribes and Castes in Medieval India" for a scholarly study of this issue. Lal was an outstanding scholar worth reading"


July 27
Report of my Waves talk
http://www.waves-india.com/WAVES_Rport_Rajiv_Lecture.htm...

July 28
List of "Secular" Intellectuals named hosted by Ghulam Nabi Fai
Sagar posts: S. Gurumurthy, has written an article which has a list of "seculars" and "liberals" named by FBI as guest of Ghulam Nabi Fai(who was recently arrested). The...

July 29
More of the myth
NeeShabda writes: The task of breaking the 'Aryan Myth' is arduous and never ending, but as all informed educated Indian it is our individual responsibility to continue the work that Rajiv Malhotra has started - to confront and open a dialogue with the Indologist, teacher, layman, anyone who is perpetuating the myths and downgrading the Indian civilization.

I happen to find this site called mrdowling.com," and read some of his online course on India.

I am sharing some chapters with all of you..."

Neeraj asks:
"Till now, I have not been able to find any reference of untouchability as a practice in Hindu/Sanatan/Vedic/Arya dharm, on the basis of caste. Can anyone provide such a reference "

Raj provides many useful links in his response:
"Further reading: [1] *MUST READ* - By Vishal Agarwalji - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/67764904/The-Hindu-Caste-System-Vishal-Agarwal [2] Section D here - http://www.letindiadevelop.org/irochtc/02.shtml
[3] Related messages posted here earlier:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/102
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/129
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/184
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/221
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/440
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/breakingindia/message/433
..."

Senthil provides some feedback:
"Our society is NOT based on any book or authority, and hence it would be futile to find any reference to untouchability in scriptures.. we are a civilization and NOT religion..

As a person coming from rural side, and who have seen untouchability practiced right in my home, i am putting forth the following reality..

1. Untouchability is NOT practiced just by brahmins.. but by all jaathis.."

Vishal is emphatic:
"... Hindus are not a Bookish religion but the Shastras are the prime authority for what is correct and what is wrong. Sadachar ranks below shruti and smriti in terms of what constitutes authority in matters of Dharma. Traditions can be correct or incorrect, and they change with time anyway. So they CANNOT constitute what is Sanatana Dharma. The localized, parochial version of Dharma that you conceive has largely ceased to exist today and surely does not belong to the future..."
 
Mrithak posts:
"Below is the quote that I copied from Sankarachaarya's Brahma-sutra-bhaasya regarding the great achaarya's objection to teaching the vedas to the sudras. As i see it the explanation given by Sri Sankarachaarya is more of sanskrit
gymnastics.
BRAHMA-SUTRA-BHASYA (Topic 9: PSEUDO SUDRA, I.iii.34 & 35)..." 

Vishal responds:
"...
Shri Shankaracharya was conditioned by the times when he wrote his commentary.
The context of the story is this: The entire story emphasizes the point that while it is important to be Dharmic, it is not sufficient. Brahmavidya trumps Dharma. Now, Janshruti was a philanthropic and a just king but he had this ego that by his benevolence, everyone in his kingdom was happy. However, the swan belittled his glory in front of that of Raikyamuni Shaktayana (The cart owner, Muni of the Raikas). The very name of the Muni indicates that he was a nomad and therefore not an Arya in the conventional sense, but a Shudra.
However, Janashruti judged Raikya by his external appearances and tried to BUY the wisdom that Raikya had by offering him money. Raikya in turn addressed the despearate king, who was grieving for having been slighted relative to Raiky as a Shudra (cock a snook, so to say).
It was only when Janashruti offered his daughter as a wife to Raikya that the latter relented....

...The teaching that Raikya gave to Janashruti also emphasizes that Brahmavidya trumps Dharma (or that excellent Karma is not sufficient for Moksha, and Brahmavidya is the crown of punyakarma)...
... 
So far from debarring Shudras from acquiring Brahmavidya, the Upanishad actually shows how a Shudra teacher gives the teaching to a Kshatriya.
Likewise, the following story of Satyakama Jabala in the Upanishad shows how a child of unknown parentage becomes qualified to acquire Brahmavidya by virtue of being truthful because a truthful person cannot be a 'abrahmana' (non brahmana'....
...Far from being 'casteist', the entire Chhandogya Upanishad is actually a very liberating Scripture that shows that Shraddha of lowly dogs trumps ritual of learned Brahmanas, that Brahmavidya of a nomad trumps royal wealth and good deeds, that truth trumps lineage, and that even a person of a high lineage is not really a Brahmana unless he knows the Brahmavidya. And the seventh Prapathaka in turn has the story of Narada and Sanatkumara which shows how all bookish knowledge is of no worth when compared to Spiritual wisdom."
July 31
book on similar intervention in south america by Rockefeller, Evange
Thy Will Be Done: The Conquest of the Amazon : Nelson Rockefeller and Evangelism in the Age of Oil [Paperback]Gerard Colby ...