Fair-skin complexion - digestion of indian aesthetics?

This post summarizes a discussion of April 2012 initiated by Rajiv Malhotra.

Fair-skin complexion - digestion of indian aesthetics? http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/19/india-fair-skinned-beauty

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7010885.stm

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/05/Are-Hindu-Attitudes-Towards-Race-Skin-Deep.aspx

I am troubled that the second and third articles above blame the fair-skin craze on Hindu prejudices. In Hinduism, Krishna, Shiva, Kali, Durga and several other important deities are dark-skinned, and at the same time there are other deities who are fair skinned. So both skin
tones are appreciated. In the Ajanta Caves (pre-Islamic art), dark-skinned persons are wearing lots of jewelry on par with fair-skinned or even more so - again indicating that dark-skinned was not a mark of being lower strata.

My thesis is that this fair skinned nonsense started under Islamic rule when fair skinned middle eastern invaders kept the natives as slaves. The ashraf caste is fair skinned in islam because they are said to be from Arabia, Turkey, etc. whereas the ajlaf are dark-skinned native muslims.

To upgrade oneself within Islamic caste, Indian muslims still crave for the markers of ashraf - fair skin, urdu language over local Indian language, claims of ancestry from West of the subcontinent, lots of knowledge about Islamic stories and aristocratic customs, etc.

This inferiority complex among Indians who were ruled by Islamic rulers got further worsened under European rule. But the complex began under Muslims. The word "gora" for whites is of Persian origin.

...Many pop stars and media celebs are into the fair-skin cream racket.

When the issue does get raised infrequently, it is common to blame "Hindu caste".


Srinivas disagrees:
"... disagree about fair skin complex coming through islamic route. for ages now we hindus preferred white skin . a darker girl found it difficult to get a bridegroom in the past when there were arranged marriages. for a dark skinned man the divinity is added by saying Krishna was dark ! you can see the ads everyday about fairness cream and it is probably one of the best selling products in this country .

Rajiv comment: You have offered no evidence to back up the above claim. In fact, I once asked an expert of natya shastra (the classical text on aesthetics) to find me statements that regarded fair skin as the mark of beauty. The person came back and said she found none. There are numerous statements in it about beauty defined by other criteria such as symmetry, etc. I am still open to hear any concrete evidence of such a statement in natya shastra. Otherwise, what you say above is mere "opinion" not fact. ...
Words like "gora" are from Persian to urdu, and the preference for fair-skinned marriage partner itself originated in the Islamic era.

Also, please read in "Breaking India" about the Myth of Ham - the biblical history of blaming dark skinned peoples as immoral and how this was used for centuries by the church to defend slavery of Africans.

One of the fall outs of the Aryan invasion theory was to classify "fair-skinned Aryans" as superior foreigners who overcame and ruled over "dark-skinned Dravidians".

....Today you find many good and bad things, but that says nothing about whether these are indigenous.



Nagaraja adds:
".....This wrong perception, if allowed to grow, will again
go back to the mythical Aryans (mythically Fair skinned) dominating over Dravidians (mythically dark skinned), the Aryan-Dravidian divide etc. This wrong and sweeping generalizations against us is what we have to block
effectively with truth and there is nothing wrong in it.

Coming to specifics, if the bias towards fair skin can be ascribed to the historicity of Hindus, there must be some evidence to it. Apart from Natya Shashtra, Samudrika Shasthra that contains definitions of beauty refer to
body proportions and not to skin color
. And in the Kavyas that describe beauty of some of the characters, again the body proportions and expressions are referred to rather than skin color. When this is the case, how can we
accept that the root of fair-skin-bias of past few generations lies in the vedic civilization? This is what we disagree and oppose. And in the process, if one tries to dig the roots and if there are pointers that lead to the Mughals and the British, why not point it out?.."  

Maria responds: 
"... among us ˜'whites' there is a different beauty ideal: we feel we look good if we are as brown as possible. Ok, in English it is called tan, but in German we are proud if we are '˜brown' or have '˜colour'. That is the major reason why tourists walk around skimpily dressed. If they come home they have to show that they became brown.

Now, with so much skin cancer around, the awareness is growing that spending long hours in the sun is not healthy, even though being brown is associated with looking good, healthy and active and the teeth look white. How hard many work to turn brown. To spend a holiday lying in the sun, is a rather boring way, but this sacrifice is made for '˜looking good' afterwards.

In spite of all this, we never get such good shades as Indians have. Our brown is reddish and many in northern Europe, Brits included, never manage to get brown but only pink. So basically we envy you for your good colour. We know that Indians generally look better, brighter and more cheerful than us. A German friend calls India the 'land of beautiful people'.

Rajiv comment: Yes this is true today and well known. But until recent times it was not so.

This has to do with what constitutes the look of the elites - they define beauty. In the famous renaissance paintings displayed across europe's museums, the women used as models are pale skin, indicating that that was the notion of beauty. Models of a given time and place indicate what kind of look was considered beautiful. I have written many times that Mona Lisa would not have got a job on Madison Avenue today as a model, because female beauty is different today in two ways: first its better to be slim now .... Both color and proportions have changed in western notions of beauty.

The reason is economic: in the renaissance days, the rich were lazy and stayed indoors, making the poor work hard in the fields - pre-mechanization. This meant
that the poor were slim and tanned in color, while the rich were not. Since the rich defined the beauty criteria, the good looks meant being plump and pale colored.....

So we both agree that NOTIONS OF BEAUTY ARE RELATIVE TO TIME AND PLACE AND NOT
ABSOLUTES IN HUMAN DNA.

Thats why Jesus, who was dark skinned with Middle Eastern features for many centuries in the christian art, suddenly became a white, blonde man after the Italian renaissance aristocrats started sponsoring such images of him." 


Wadhwa shares:
"....Pl.see the description of handsome appearance of Lord Rama with darker hue - an Arya Putra,  as given in the Ram Rajyam Prashasati in the Shanti Parva of Mahabharata - Chapter 29:

"Rama was dark-skinned and a youthful king.  His eyes had the lustre of the valiant.  He was as strong and confident as the king of elephants.  He had long and powerful arms.  His chest was broad and as strong as a lion's and he had a handsome appearance." (Source: 'Shastra Navanitam' - A Concise study of Hindu Scriptures, pub.by Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, South Africa).

Due to misunderstanding of the poetic and multi-meaning vedic language, the caste differences are often traced by some western scholars and their Indian camp followers  to the Vedas and the symbolic fight between gods and demons found in the Vedas is interpreted by them as fight between fair Aryans and dark Dravadians.  The classic example which can be given here  is that of the word 'Varna' which  has been derived from the root word Vriyn, i.e., to choose broadly out of the four social groups as an occupation in accordance with ones personality traits for which one is most suitable.   Explaining this, Maharishi Dayananda  said  that it is not necessary that a man's varna corresponds with that of his parents. Swamiji vociferously condemned  hereditary caste system ..... However, the imperialist writers of the last century mainly because of their colour-psychology and racial outlook and being obsessed with the superiority of their race, out of context, mis-interpreted varna with its secondary meaning, i.e.,'colour' and jumped upon the Aryan invasion theory.  They haphazardly concluded that Varna distinction was due to colour and the white coloured Aryans introduced it when they conquered darker aborigines called Dasyus.   In Ramayana, Rama is called "Arya Sarvsamshaiva Saddaiva Priyadarshana" i.e, an Arya who looks on everyone alike and is ever pleasant looking. .."  



Arjunshakti shares:
"one just have to go to islamic forums ...going on about tall fair skin muslims and dark faced short hindus which now khalistanis keep defining hindus as..... something that first came through islamic routes then colonial brainwash..."   
 
Priyadarshi comments:
"As regarding etymology of the word 'Gora' (feminine Gori) it appears to be corrupted from of Sankrit 'Gaur' (from Go - light). Goddess Parvati (a form of Durga) is called Gauri. 'Sharanye trambake Gauri Durga Devi Namastute' appears in the Saptashloki Durga in Durga Saptashati (3rd-4th century AD). Gauri-Shankar is a common name in northern India. It is true that Shiva, like Rama and Krishna, is dark but Parvati is fair. The entwined dark-white principles represents unison of existence-energy biune. An unless I am accused of Japanese digestion of Hindu thought one might call it Yang-Yin principle equivalent.In Yang-Yin white and dark embrace each other and there is a white eye inside dark patch and vice versa. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, medieval era Vaishnav genius, is also referred to as Gaurang (Gora in short).

We may also notice that goddess Saraswati is immaculately white. I am sorry I have not read the original post blaming colour bias to the Vedas, if there was one such. But the original word for caste in Hinduism was 'Varna', which coincidentally also indicate colour....

In Hindu tradition there is no institutionalized bias against dark skinned. But it is difficult to believe that fair skinned women enjoyed no advantage or preference in pre-Islamic period. It is normal human nature. ....No historical phenomenon can become lasting unless there is a sustained appetite for it. Greco-Macedonians were the first 'whites' that Hindus encountered historically. Chandragupta Maurya even married the daughter of Selecus Nikator, even if for diplomatic reason. I am sure Bactrian (Greek) women were favourites in ancient India..."  


Rajiv comment: I still dont have a response to why Ajanta Caves do not depict bias based on skin color, when there are clearly people of many skin colors being depicted there. The present-day tamil bias needs to be traced to a time of origin if you are to posit a cause. It could be something recent. Most societies that got conquered suffer inferiority complex with respect to the rulers - its part of what the rulers must do in order to dominate. In BD this is called "difference anxiety from below". Since India got invaded always from people located West of India, and of fair skins, this complex has crept into society as part of this difference anxiety from below.

If it were "Hindu" per se, there would be: (1) sanskaras/rituals to become whiter skinned, (2) natya shastra references, (3) only fair skinned deities and not dark ones as well.

Regarding the word varna: It has half a dozen meanings just like most sanskrit words, that cannot be conflated. Lingam is another common word whose different meanings must be understood. " 


Nagaraja responds:
"The term 'varna' carries more than 20 meanings all of which are based on the same verb root 'varn' meaning 'visthare' or to 'to expand'. The word color is one of the meanings of the word Varna ... Chanyakya (Kautilya / Vishnu Gupta), for instance was a Brahmana par-excellence, and he was of dark complexion. Lord Krishna, a Kshyatriya par-excellence was of dark
complexion too...."


Srinath adds:
"In Samskrtam there are multiple words for fair - shukla, shweta, lavana, etc. but the predominant word for dark is krishna.  Contrast with western and Islamic societies where numerous slurs are found in their languages for dark skinned people - even as we speak, the slave owning families of Libya are white and the genocides of Sudan perpetrated by Africans claiming Arab descent against native (negro) Muslims.

Islamic trilogy explicitly makes reference to Mohammad being a "white skinned man", and that he preferred the fair maidens of select Arab/Jewish tribes.

Jesus has been transformed from his dark haired, brown skinned Palestinian ethnicity into a blond, blue eyed prophet in the Renaissance art of Europe."
 
Ravi questions Priyadarshi's hypotheses:
"... merely being like the rest of us, unable to easily separate stereotypes in current society from actual facts....
...There is no evidence for this in our pre Islamic period's history, as so many here have shown. So at best, it is speculative opinion, though taken as "true" by many.

....What historical evidence do we have that "Bactrian women were favorites in India?" . and , more to the point, even if they were, this doesn't automatically translate to giving them any superior status compared to "not-as-fair" people. One can objectify features of another culture &  genuinely "like" those features in isolation.

And in passing, we need to remember the culpability of the English language here too. "Fair" as a characterization for light skin is an English conceit. When one makes the transition to US English, it is no longer typical to say "fair". Calling someone "light skinned" or "white" is more the norm, and arguably more neutral.

Because the opposite to "fair" is naturally "less-fair", tending to "un-fair" ..... investing a whole lot of value judgement into this word.

It is telling indeed to contrast this with the sanskrit word "shyama" for dark, for skin & otherwise ....."
 
Srinivas2 responds:
"I think the best place to look for on this topic of women's skin color preference in old times is Kama Sutra.

The 4 types of women mentioned in Kama Sutra namely Padmini, Chitrini, Shankini, Hastini are not defined based on skin color as the differentiation. Color is usually mentioned in passing and i think only Padmini is mentioned as not being black. I also think they are equally critical of completely black or completely white women.

Besides all this, Draupadi's complexion was dark and she was believed to be one of the most beautiful women of her times! Which means, skin color wasn't such a big thing in those days as it is now."
 
Senthil comments: 
".... there are people with both black and fair complexion..  adding to that, khanwa maharishi is black.. and ...we have khanwa gothra, and the people in that gothra are black.. .....people looked at whether the girl is capable enough to manage and run the family..  but today's generation wants only fair skinned beautiful girl..   the reason is influence of cinema, and change of life style from role/responsbility based to consumeric based..  this can be attributed to imposition of western universalism on indian society..

Secondly, the collapse of jathi is also partly responsible..  Within a jathi, a black girl/boy is accepted through family networks, and relations..  there is a collective conscience, and people are looked based on relations..  When this jathi network collapses, we get only Class based society on the lines of european elites..."
 
 
Venkat adds:
"Senthil makes some very pertinent points. In traditional marriage, often portrayed as restrictive by the uninformed, appearance itself was secondary to other traits such as character, family traditions, etc. Traditional marriages, unlike the highly exploitative variety one sees in the west and in India today, emphasized the sacred. This is why one would be hard-pressed to find any preference for fair complexion .....one (person as well as region) was evaluated based on virtues. For example, in the Mahabharata (5:39, 12:328), The Vahikas (Central Asians / those from the banks of the Oxus and hence lighter complexioned) are viewed by Vidura and Narada as the scum of the earth as they had abandoned the Veda and vrata and are found to observe no scruples. " 
 
BNA adds:
"The entire Indian Sub-continant has very similar Genes - a mixture of one male and two types of female genes all over- for 97% of the population. In our ancient books,  this is referred as: Prajapathi had two wives, Dithi and Adithi. So, within the same family, some are fair complexioned and some dark, some tall and some short,..."
 
Hemachandra reports:
"I checked the Kama Sutra in Devanagari (from the GRETIL collection, see http://sanskritworld.in/unicode-sanskrit-books/, link1 , link2
and searched in Devanagari for 3 applicable synonyms for white from Apte's English-Sanskrit Dict: shweta, shukla, gaura

Surprisingly, there is only one place I noticed white colour (shweta) as in "white cow" and "white calf".
.... Kamasutra does not seem to mention the color aspect wrt women at all. Devadatta Shastri's commentary (in Hindi) refers to Ratirahasya (by Koka) where it is said that a Padmini is white like a jasmine flower... My source of info is Alain Danielou's unabridged ed of Kamasutra (p. 92) that has the Jayamagala tika of Yashodhara and Devadatta's 20th c. commentary (in Hindi)." 
 
Rohit posts:
""In England perhaps more than in southern Europe, the concept of blackness was loaded with intense meaning. Long before they found that some men were black, Englishmen found in the idea of blackness a way of expressing some of their most ingrained values. No other color except white conveyed so much emotional impact.

As described by the Oxford English Dictionary, the meaning of black before the sixteenth century included, "Deeply stained with dirt; soiled, dirty, foul .... Having dark or deadly purposes, malignant; ...." Black was an emotionally partisan color, the handmaid and symbol of
baseness and evil, a sign of danger and repulsion.

....
Everye white will have its blacke And everye sweete its sowre White and black connoted purity and filthiness, virginity and sin, virtue and baseness, beauty and ugliness, beneficence and evil, God and the Devil.

Whiteness, moreover, carried a special significance for Elizabethan Englishmen: it was, particularly when complemented by red, the color of perfect human
beauty, especially female beauty. ...

Shakespeare himself found the lilly and the rose a compelling natural coalition: `Tis beauty truly blent, whose red and white Nature's own sweet and cunning hand
laid on.

...As Shakespeare wrote apologetically of a black mistress:
My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun; Coral is far more red than her lips' red:
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun; If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.

I have seen roses damask 'd, red and white, But no such roses see I in her cheeks.

Source: http://www.sammustafa.com/Resources/slavery.pdf

Winthrop Jordan, in White over Black: American Attitudes towards the Negro (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina, 1968), emphasizes sixteenth-century
travel accounts that reveal the English held a deep-seated prejudice toward Africans—on the basis of color as well as religion—before slavery began, and therefore from the very outset the English saw Africans as being particularly
suited to slavery. ....In Jordan's analysis, slavery and racial prejudice were equally a matter of cause and effect; racial prejudice predated slavery and was its crucial prerequisite.

Question then is, is there a cause behind the racial prejudice in the West that catalyzed slavery of the black heathen? Color related prejudice is clear from the English view of color."
 
 

Sampath posts:
"gaura is a Sanskrit word, fairly commonly used, and means white/fair.Parvati is Gauri if fair-comlexioned, and Kali, if dark-complexioned. Kalidasa gives Kailasa as the standard of comparison for white,and says Nandin, the bull, was as gaura as Kailasa."

Rohit summarizes the findings so far:
"The discussion so far has established following premises with good reason:

(a) there is no evidence in old Indian traditions (older than 300-400 years) of favoring "fair-colored" skin.

(b) recent times clearly show a big shift in bias to "fair-colored" skin.

(c) Color bias and racism was strong in England and was one of the major drivers of slavery and colonialism. By the start of colonial expansion, Chritianity was a European, white religion.....

To add evidence to (a) in the later part of the time period, one needs to look at poetry in regional languages. Look specifically for features that were described when speaking of feminine beauty. They are distinctly native features. I went to school in Hyderabad and remember a poet Pothana (1600-1700 ?) who writes about beauty of a woman in terms one no longer uses in India. (a) is then a reasonable premise based on what has been said so far on the forum.

As Sri Rajiv explained, shift in bias started during Muslim rule. It likely intensified under overt racism of the English. Finally, as Senthil pointed out, media (both imported and indigenous) is accelerating and furthering these
sentiments. Thus, (b) is a reasonable premise as well. Recent portraits of Hindu religious figures with a very fair skin is a display of how-deep rooted this problem is, unfortunately, this bias can facilitate import of things,
ideas, and beliefs that are from fair-skinned cultures. Import of religious icons that is white skinned with flowing golden hair will worsen the problem. Moves the color preference from aesthetically desirable to superior.

One last question that needs to be addressed is why more of the fair-colored Indians are from upper caste Indians.

Not sure there is a well-documented reason behind this bias..."



Bhattacharya questions Rohit's fair-upper-caste hypothesis:
"Is there any evidence to back up your claim regarding fair skin and upper castes? Your argument appears to be a restatement of Aryan invasion/migration theory. I ask that you carefully re-read Rajivji's comments in this thread (especially message #2595)....
.....You may also want to familiarize yourself with the results and conclusions of recent studies (available on the internet and covered in BI) in which genetic analysis of the Indian population has been performed. Such sources of
information may prove useful as you formulate any hypothesis."

Koti responds:
"There are many belonging to scheduled tribes who are of lighter skin. In Karnataka, Gollas (Yadavas of Karnataka) have more fair complexion than Brahmins.

Jains are typically of lighter skin. That and lighter color among upper castes may also have to do with their vegetarian diet, which is typically low in proteins and copper. You need both copper and tyrosine amino acid for melanin pigment synthesis. I have seen in the US that often our children are of darker complexion than parents. This is attributable to diet. Even vegetarian diet is rich in protein here (cheese, milk,..).."

Vijay shares:
".....Please read below my blog post where I have discussed the book Indika by Megasthenes and how he never mentions any white skinned people in India either in the western region or in any other part

Extract from article - .... travelled extensively around India from 250 BC to 298 BC. In his book Indika Megasthenes
minutely describes the people, customs, traditions, attire, food religion, laws, geography, fauna, flora and all other possible details that he ecounters while travelling around India from Pentapotamia (Greek for land of the five rivers
present day Punjab) to Patalibotra (Patliputra, present day Patna) to Kanyakumari in the south to Serendib (Lanka).

In his description of the people of India he clearly states that they are tall but lightly built (lean) dark skinned with black long hair which they tie in a bun on top of their head and wear turbans with twisted cloth. All men have beards and shaving is not known among the Indians. Nowhere in his entire narration has he alluded to fair skinned Indians either in the North west, North or in the South lording over dark skinned people.

In fact in Megasthenes description of Chandragupta Maurya he notes the Emperors dark skin, medium build and pock marked face. He also goes into great detail
about the Brahmanae caste (Brahmins) and their customs and traditions but does not make a remark on their skin colour as being lighter than the others and they
lording over the others. In fact he mentions various instances where the Brahmins have been out casted for having broken a vow, law or tradition.

This description of India goes counter to the AIT theory of large, blue eyed, blonde haired white skinned Aryans lording over dark skinned natives. The description of the people of India by Megasthenes is around 1250 years after the supposed arrival of the Aryans i.e. 1500 BC and given that in the intervening period there may have been some intermingling of the people causing some of these racial attributes to be diluted but at any rate fair skinned people should have been present in some numbers and complete absence of any such mention in the text is a clear indicator that no such fair skinned invasion or migration of Aryans occurred. "



Alex has the last word in this thread:
"If you want a "European" reference to "black being the
perfection of beauty" in Pre-Islamic India, you can see in The Travels of Marco Polo, Chapter 18, last para: "In this province the natives, although black, are not born of so deep a dye as they afterwards attain by artificial means,
esteeming blackness the perfection of beauty. For this purpose, three times every day, they rub the children over with oil of sesame. The images of their deities they represent black, but the devil they paint white, and assert that all the demons are of that colour".
The Travels of Marco Polo, Translated by Manuel Komroff, The Modern Library, New
York, NY, 1953., p.291

Note: Marco Polo here is visiting the South western coast of India. Perhaps, one can then argue that esteeming blackness as perfection of beauty was mostly in
the South of India since the Sangam literature in Tamil also praises "ebony skin, teeth like pearl and lips like coral..." etc as attributes of feminine beauty."


RMF Summary: Week of April 16 - 22, 2012

April 16
A reflection from one of the digested  
Arun shares:James Baldwin, October 26, 1965:
"The white South African or Mississippi sharecropper or Alabama sheriff has at bottom a system of reality which compels them really to believe when they face the Negro that this woman, this man, this child must be insane to attack the system to which he owes his entire identity. For such a person, the proposition which we are trying to discuss here does not exist....

Also see ....


April 16
A piece on Hinduism on CBS News Kajal shares: This post is a little off topic but I was relieved to see that there was a 10 minute piece on Hinduism without a single mention of caste!...

April 17
A critical review of Being Different by Kalavai Venkat
http://beingdiffere
ntcriticalreview.blogspot.com/ . Regards, KV...

April 17
Museum of Hindu Contributions to the world - request for facts
I have been invited by the head of this important museum in Canada as adviser to help set up educational displays. We are collecting factual and accurate information on Hindu contributions to the world in various fields.

If you have specific information, files, posters, links, etc. to send me please do so off line.... If you wish to volunteer to compile such information, please write to me
as well.
 

[this post below had a lot of responses and will be covered in a separate post].

April 18
Fair-skin complexion - digestion of indian aesthetics?
http://www.guardian
.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/19/india-fair-skinned-be\ auty http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7010885.stm ...

April 18
Request for serious research volunteers
I have been doing a massive project for 20 years that is getting out of hand because the information is exploding faster than I can keep up. I need to also...
[those who are really interested and inspired to work on such projects can contact Rajiv offline].

April 21
BD turned into a social game - need volunteers with interest to help
Someone who is a game designer has sent me a proposed social game based on BD. I need volunteers to help evaluate it, guide it on my behalf, etc. Pls contact...

April 22
Manushi magazine review of BD
http://www.manushi.
in/articles.php?articleId=1592 The review is written by a prominent traditional scholar who was also a discussant at the BHU seminar....

Seshadri responds:
The reviewer has quoted from Tagore's works many times and it is very informative and inspiring.
The phrase used by Gurudev "slavery of taste", sums up the current state preoccupation of millions 
of 'minds' in India especially those of the so called "educated" and "vociferous". We have to wake up
before the 'silent majority' is irreversibly buried under the weight of waste piling up as a result of
by mindless following of the 'universal' western models of individual destiny and balance."

 
 

RMF Summary: Week of February 27 - March 5, 2013

February 28
Activating my Twitter 
Rajiv Malhotra shares: I have started tweeting regularly. Please follow me if you like - @RajivMessage My Huffpost blog on the new Pope triggered a huge angry reaction from Catholics...

February 28
Vedas and religions/ music scholar
Maria comments on two previous threads:
One, regarding the music scholar who finds it easier to get his research published when he included Persia as a source which is of course disappointing [e.g. see keyword Raga]. Unfortunately, in the present scenario, he might even in India find it easier if he includes Persia. India is such big country in its own right. It would not need a foreign university press if it would own up its tradition and back it solidly. There is clearly a change happening among young people here, but the establishment moves slowly.....

Two, whether all religions are the same according to the Vedas (see related thread later in this post). In my view this question cannot be put, as in Vedic times there were no religions like Christianity and Islam. The Rishis would never have imagined that such religions would be taken seriously and even might be considered superior compared to a genuine, dedicated inner search based on reason, intuition and experience into what is true. Blind belief in outlandish claims about a historical person, and bullying with eternal hellfire would have been challenged and enforcing such belief with state power (death) unthinkable.."


February 28
BBC's skeptical, cynical, irreverent article on Westerners becoming
Ravi posts: BBC's skeptical, cynical, irreverent article on Westerners becoming Hindu Sanyasis

March 2

Mother Teresa declared "Saint of the media" by new study
JP shares: http://timesofindia

.indiatimes.com/world/uk/mother-teresa-saint-of-the-media-controversial-study-says/articleshow/18760028.cms **** ** ** LONDON: A study... 

Menon shares another news article from December 2012.
"...
Wednesday 26 December 2012
Mother Teresa 'miracle' patient accuses nuns

Image 1 of 2
Monica Besra says that the Missionaries of Charity offered financial help for her livelihood and her children's education 
By Peter Foster in New Delhi
1:10PM BST 05 Sep 2007
An Indian woman whose "miracle" cure from cancer was instrumental in the beatification of Mother Teresa of Calcutta has accused the Sisters of Charity of abandoning her to a life of penury..."

 
Venkat shares a 2007 article.

  
March 3 (continuing discussion from February 13)
Re: Are all religions really the same according to Vedas?
Surya shares: How to use sameness thinking of Hindus to build bridges and convert them to Christianity

Article: "Impacting the Hindu diaspora in North America" by Timothy Paul in the International Journal of Frontier Missiology, 26:3 Fall 2009, pages 129-133

..Excerpts:

Step 1: Build a sambandh or relationship with the Hindus

A believer in Christ and a Hindu enter into a relationship with one another that is authentic and sustainable.

Step 2: Help Hindus connect to Jesus via Anubhav or experience

Hindus interact with and certify religious truth in two ways, either traditionally or experientially. Since Jesus is not a part of Hindu tradition, no amount of our sharing about the Christian tradition will impact them. The better way to bring the gospel to Hindu people is by experiencing Jesus.

Step 3: Help develop Bhakti or devotion to Jesus
Bhakti means devotion or worship of a specific deity and it is the heartbeat of how Hindus respond to God. It is how Hindus would naturally respond to a experience positive initiatory experience of Jesus..."

March 3
Valerie Tarico: If the Dalai Lama Were Pope
I was trying to figure out how to highlight what's wrong with the papacy without simply repeating what everyone else has said, and then my husband Brian stuck an old article on my desk about the Dalai Lama retiring.

Respect for science, a truly comprehensive culture of life, separation of church and state, a sad lack of scandal, and (not mentioned) a severe wardrobe downgrade.
Despite Vatican efforts to keep the public eye focused on pomp and circumstance, speculation about the real reason for Pope Benedict’s resignation dominates conversation about the papal succession: Is it the Vatileaks money laundering? Is it the pedophilia scandal? Might it have something to do with criminal charges filed in European courts? How about the impact of all three on Catholic Church coffers and pews? Is this about immunity or power or finances or brand management? Continue reading →..."



Rajiv comment: This person read my [Huffington Post] blog on the new Pope and cited it in her own extension of that. Interesting...



RMF Summary: Week of February 21 - 27, 2013

February 22
Wikipedia
Akshay posts:  "I edited some articles in Wikipedia.
sometime ago I had replaced Dharma with religion in many articles. But this is not enough, We have re-write, re-contextualize ( for this I'm waiting for U-Turn Theory, Noted & Bibliography will help ) most of the articles under Dharmic frameworks.
Today i added,
started criticism. People who are interested ..."

February 22 (continuing discussion from Feb 20)
Re: My recent event at Princeton University
JC Pant posts: " ....

A similar transformation appears to have taken place in the case of good practicing Hindus as a result of India adopting a an avowedly 'secular' constitution (post the Constitutional amendment to this effect in 1976). The only way Hindus could continue to remain good practicing Hindus was by conducting themselves in the public domain in a manner as secular as possible without compromising on their Hindu practices in private & for a minority of them also to explore how the secular ethos could be turned into an opportunity to promote the positive aspects of Hindu way of life in society in general. This however, did provide this group an opportunity to promote social reforms in Hinduism to rid it of all the unhealthy practices which had crept in it over the last 1000 years or so, about which one Eddie in the group keeps whining.

 The opportunists among the Hindus were quick to jump on the secular bandwagon,..."

February 22 (continuing discussion from Feb 21)
Re: Coexistence with India - A Dawn Blog
Prashant adds: A more elaborate analysis along similar lines can be found in M J Akbar's book Tinderbook...


February 22
Christian Colonization and the Concomitant Decimation of the Native
Ravi posts: This article, from Smithsonian Magazine, tangentially hints at the Christian Colonization and the Concomitant Decimation of the Native Cultures of the Amazon.

The Lost Tribes of the Amazon
Often described as “uncontacted,” isolated groups living deep in the South American forest resist the ways of the modern world—at least for now..."


February 22 (continuing discussion from Feb 19)
Re: Evangelical Christian group helps sue California school over yoga
Raghu posts: "What you say about the way the Krishnamacharya-Desikachar heritage is going is true. I was one of the early teachers in KYM. I taught there for more than a decade. When Desikachar's young son Kausthubh took over, he went back on many of the teachings. He was openly irreverent to the heritage, and was keen on reversing his fathers investments in the institution.... a very far cry from the Yogacharya Krishnamacharya. He has gone far away from the discipline, and we suspect his real learning too. He was recently accused of...."
 
February 24
Re: : Recording of my MSNBC television panel discussion: On Bobby Ji Menon posts: I felt pained when I heard the conversion story of Jindal. I wondered how such an intelligent person with pious hindu parents could get attracted to such dogmatic political outfit such as christianity. Even without looking deeper into what his own Dharmic and rich / scientific / universal and unbroken heritage since the time of creation has to offer to him, he got attracted to the glamour of power and riches, which he would come to experience as temporary and therefore, superfluous & unreal...

Rajiv responds:
While you dont understand why converted people keep Hindu names, I dont understand why so-called Hindu activists have not learned such basic things despite the fact that:
1) The practice is very old and common.
2) Many of us have written and discussed this for so many years. 
 
JP posts:
"More such Bobby Jindal's are manufactured in the church on a daily basis with a strategy and plan. Please see the forwarded mail below. Not only do they keep Hindu names but they also....They are now also using the sport cricket as a means to convert people. The boldness of the mail was shocking.  Please go through it.

"Dear Upward families at Eastview Christian Church,

As most of you know by now, Eastview recently decided to invest some money and effort into a new ministry effort.  We built a brand new cricket field!  Cricket is the second most popular sport in the world, and we are trusting that the sport will become a great platform for us to engage in ministry with our culture in McLean County.  We now have a sub-culture of around 6,000 Asian Indians living in our community. Many of these individuals are extremely open to integrating into our culture.

The God we love and serve wants all people to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4)…including those that are not like us but that are living among us for a time...."
Pushpa adds:
"Most Hindus think that the abandoned Church buildings are a sign of decline of Christianity. That is obviously not the case. Christians have found other novel ways to push their agenda. Through sports as pointed here. Another one where some of our leaders, sadhus, mahatmas, etc are being lured is the "Environmental" movement. Craving for a spot on the international stage, these Swamis ... entertain Church funded environmental events. Disguised as innocuous sounding earth projects, usually the headed by Hindus or Hindu sounding puppets,...The Maha Kumbh is the latest example where Harvard University made headlines on a daily basis. This is by no means to say that Harvard project is Church funded. The point here is that a project that is headed by anti-Hindu woman like Diana Eck is not going to yield anything of value for the Hindu community. There is obviously another agenda. The shocking fact is that, in spite of being warned, people like Swami Chidananda gave a red carpet welcome to Diana Eck and company. Can one imagine such a thing happening in Mecca or Medina?

Rajiv comment: I am glad at least a few persons get it. Thanks. Most mahatmas I met are morons suffering from whiteness inferiority complex - very sad but we must deal with it honestly." 


Manish comments:
".....I am personally yet to meet a Hindu priest / Guru who can hold an informed conversation on anything outside the narrow confines of the religious ceremonies he conducts. Almost all of them are steeped in the sameness meme. Most are utterly other-worldly in their mental outlook, out of touch with the practical realities of the 21st century. 

But then it is the structure of our society that is largely to blame for this state of affairs --- a Hindu priest or a sadhu has to depend on the dakshina that a yajmaan pays him (in contrast to a xian priest who lords it over a church and is paid a fixed salary). 

This dakshina-dependence may have worked well in the hoary past when the priests enjoyed state patronage but by the 20th/21st centuries, in Nehruvian India, dakshina-dependence has become such a self-respect-shattering arrangement that Hindu priesthood would never attract bright young persons. .."

Saket shares:
"this morning I came across this peace in Open Magazine titled : Foreign Funding of NGOs:Should FDI in India's think tank sector worry us? ...

I immediately recalled the thought experiment that Shri Rajiv Malhotra did during the launch of the book Invading The Sacred in 2007 i had heard on YouTube. There he had mentioned how idea of India is determined by bodies who
fund studies in India. The above article is perhaps the first expose in India media of that link and its ramification for Indian policy making and safe guarding its long term interests. I only wonder how correct he was then !!..." 


 

RMF Summary: Week of April 9 - 15, 2012

April 9
Should we offer 'mutual respect' to a 'bad' ideology
Analogy: Suppose we offer a million dollars to some bad person, on the condition that he must kill himself. A naive criticism would be that we are giving money to a bad person. But a proper understanding would be different: In order to claim the money, he has to first kill himself, and then the dead person is simply unable to make any claim. So its a good offer to make.

Similarly, the mutual caveat in 'mutual respect' must be understood properly. If accepted by the other side, it forces the demise of the exclusivity clause of that ideology - because the exclusivity clause compels them to regard all others as false religions and not worthy of respect. There is a domino effect if they accept the offer - without exclusivity the entire logic falls apart. So we are not 'giving away' respect to someone who does not deserve it. We are forcing their demise if they accept it, and we are forcing them to admit their arrogance if they cannot accept it.

For many years, I have been asked in numerous talks: Why would you respect bin laden, hitler, etc? My answer in talks and writings has been consistent: Because such a person cannot respect others, he will not get our respect; the respect being offered demands reciprocity. It is not unconditional respect. The word 'mutual' is not extraneous; it makes all the difference.

It was Swami Dayananda Saraswati's stoke of genius to offer Cardinal Ratzinger (the present Pope Benedictine) 'mutual respect' instead of 'tolerance' in the UN Millennium Summit of 2000. BD's chapter 1 explains what happened as a result. It gave swamiji the moral high ground and put the Vatican in a corner. It exposed their hypocrisy....

My reason for this post is that despite many attempts to explain this point as a strategic ploy, I sometimes get 'critiques' sent to me by those who just dont get it.....

Anil responds:
"Actually I used to think about Mutual Respect as Rajiv ji puts it but found it does not work in reality - the [evangelist] missionary respects the other pluralistic view but he expects respect for his view to convert that view in the same mutual understanding - so he says he respects the Hindu universality and its need not to convert anyone but please respect mine to convert you. This is Mutual Respect."

Rajiv comments on the under-preparedness of the average debating Hindu and the tendency to underestimate the opponent's skill level:
Mutual respect has to be explained deeper than mere talk. Such an evangelist posture is disrespect camouflaged as respect, just to fool Hindus who are unable to debate. I love taking on such persons in debate. Hindu leaders who cant do this run away, which has not helped, as it shows fear to the youth.

Once you open the debate on mutual respect, be prepared to take it all the way into history centrism and its nasty implications. Be prepared to take that further into synthetic unity and the history of the West in that way of seeing things, and so forth. In other words, dont start a debate you have not had enough experience engaging in at many levels; otherwise you will deplete your arguments quickly and then make a fool of yourself. 99% of the Hindus involved in public representation are unschooled and inadequately read in the subject. They want quick visibility but are unqualified.


 Pradip shares an experience in the U.S:
"... we rented a church auditorium for celebration.The next week many church members came to know that we had moorties of our deities during the celebration there,
were totally displeased, and decided not to rent the lace to us again.Thus unhappy, the church had a long talk over it with our organizer... [she was] saying to them that all
gods are equal, so she couldn't comprehend the  unhappiness of the church members.The church leader told her if she believed all gods are same, then, she should convert to christianity and join his church.She was flummoxed. ...

Rajiv comment: "If all gods are same, then you must convert to christianity": This is simply an illogical conclusion. Never fear such fools - just call out
their foolishness.

btw: I dont agree that all deities are the same - they refer to distinct intelligences that comprise the Supreme Being. Sort of like departments of a complex entity, though this analogy is reductionist. Each does give access to the entirety, so they are not isolated, separated; but they are distinct accesses points. The notion of ishta-devata is wonderful, giving you "equal value" with "distinct access"."



Sreekumar adds:
""Ekam sat vipra bahudavadanti". Different people approach or access the absolute (Ekam, not one but absolute), differently. As you wrote, there are different
access points.

Rajiv comment: There are different access points but not all of them lead to the same place. Contrary to the popular saying, not all rivers lead to the ocean: some rivers end up in the Dead Sea.

But I can still respect the other person (who is heading towards the dead sea) despite knowing that his ideology is misleading him - as long as it is his private life only, and does not effect me."

anon asks:
"I often wonder how debate might be useful when engaging with individuals who are clearly deficient in rationality?

In this particular case it seems like a classic case of as rajiv pointed out -- "foolishness" plain and simple. Would a meaningful dialog be possible in such a case?

It would be more beneficial for communities to rally, raise funds and build establishments of reasonable sizes (proportional to size of funds raised)?...."

Rajiv comment: These are not mutually exclusive activities. Both are needed because the pursuit of one does not exempt you from addressing the other. ... given our dharma's sociopolitical condition today .... we cannot run away from all other people. We cannot refuse to work with others in our professions and isolate our kids from others' influence (unless you want to join the Amish community). So the issue of how to engage others in mainstream forums (schools, universities, media talk shows, public policy forums, etc.) does not go away. .....Bottom line: The above is an emotional, not rational approach, hence not practical. It WILL get you a big applause at the next gathering of Hindu activists." 

Sameer asks:
"Consider an ideology which you regard as wrong and misguided, but which does "respect" your own ideology.

Can you "respect" that other ideology? If you freely express your belief that they are wrong, would you still be respecting them?

Rajiv comment: This is a great question: Can I have mutual respect for someone who I know to be wrong? Is the other person's 'knowledge of truth' a necessary condition for him to be respected?

First of all, our ancestors practiced purva paksha even with opponents who they knew to be wrong. If they had refused to engage in respectful debate with those they considered ideologically flawed, there would not have been any debates at all. They would have been of the same caliber as the tribal warriors of the Middle East desert. Respectful debate does not mean I must agree with you. I can
argue against you, and yet we can respect each other for having different worldviews. Respecting the other does NOT mean I accept his faith for myself. I practice my faith without imposing upon him and he must practice his faith while respecting me.

Secondly, lets separate PRIVATE belief in ideology from PUBLIC conduct. Whatever private ideology you subscribe to, I can still respect you and your right to
hold that ideology. It is your own private life ... Reciprocity means that you do not attempt to interfere with my private ideology, hence you cannot try to convert me.

My attack is on those with exclusivity claims. I cannot be guilty of having my own ideological exclusivity claims which all others must accept in order to deserve my respect." 

Koti comments:
"Good analogy. Pope can not respect Hinduism and remain a Pope. That is blasphemy. Swami Dayananda can respect Christianity and can still not violate Hinduism. Pope can only respect Swami as individual and with hope that he will embrace (not just respect) Christianity and reject Hinduism." 

April 9
Exclusivism eloquently demonstrated in 5 minutes
Surya posts: Exclusivism eloquently demonstrated in 5 minutes. David Platt on Universalism, Rob Bell, Love Wins, Heaven and Hell  (youtube video)


April 10 
Re: in India Greek philosophers
Surya responds to an earlier post from last week:... Maria Wirth wrote: " ... interview with the Woodstock School Principal Dr. Long about education in the Pioneer. He talks about the philosophical...

Thanks for bringing up this important issue to the forum.  I will proceed with one very reasonable assumption that Long is a Christian.

I will start with a discussion of the method argumentation required here.

Recently, when I went to buy a car, the eager dealer walked me through the aisles to show his large inventory.  He paused for a moment next to two cars and asked, "Which do you want to buy?  The red car? Or the blue car?"

As a smart buyer, I may say neither and dodge being forced into buying one of those two cars. As a smarter buyer, I would say that this is not an EITHER-OR situation.  A car is a bundle of features.  I do not have to pick between two bundles posed to me.  If I am smart, I can put together the right bundle that suits me.

Someone asked me recently whether I am a Conservative or a Liberal.   I explained that this is a poorly posed choice.  What if I am a financial conservative but a social liberal?  Why do you  have to bundle everything conservative into one artificial bundle and everything liberal into another artificial bundle and then force the issue on me as an "either or" situation?

Understanding this argument is very important if we have to stop artificially bundled concepts being imported into India under the guise of religion and bring along culturally subversive behaviors and attitudes into the country that way.  Suddenly, these culturally subversive ideas are legitimized by bundling.

To strike down all philosophical thought of Indian origin blindly and trying to supplant it with Western philosophical thought just because it came artificially bundled with Christianity is anti -cultural, and anti-national behavior.  The above argument offered by a Christian teacher in India,  quoted above, is exactly that: anti-cultural and anti-national.  You are forcing Indians to denounce Indians ideas or things and replace them with Western ideas or things just because they come bundled with Christianity.

Following Christianity in India does not have to mean that you jettison everything Indian and replace it with what comes bundled with Christianity imported from West.  If it meant that, then Christianity is anti-cultural and anti-national.

Now, the alert BD reader quickly raises an objection that this argument will lead to encouraging inculturation. 

Indeed.  We need to consider both arguments together.

The well-laid argument then is a two-sided coin.  Essence of this coin is "DO NOT make artificial or synthetic bundles".

Artificial bundling is disingenuous.  It can slip into culturally subversive attitudes and behaviors.  Artificial bundling is synthetic unity.

....In a recent article on this forum, Ram wrote that Christianity should be stripped down to its own contributions.  He is right on.   He is saying NO to synthetic bundles. "

April 10
A stellar example of Western Universalism
Dear all, I've been familiar with the writings of Lawrence Auster (a Conservative traditionalist Catholic) for quite some time. He is an extremely erudite and...

April 10
NY Times - Digesting Yoga into Islam  
Nikudi posts: Here is an article from today's NY Times about Yoga and Islam. Yoga's Hindu roots are being clearly stripped out in order to make it "acceptable" to Muslims. The Imam who advocates such approach clearly says that if the Sanskrit benedictions are left out, Yoga can be more appealing to Muslims...."

Bhattacharya posts:
"Aside from its content, the tone of the article is notable for promoting digestion. Read this passage, invoking an undefined 'American conception' of yoga:

"For many immersed in a culture where vinyasa yoga is more readily associated with a New York Sports Club than a Hindu temple, the origin matters little. And for some of the devout living here, the American conception has overridden the beliefs with which they were raised."

.... reminded me of an older NYTimes article, in which Yoga digestion was discussed in a similar, matter-of-fact manner, almost a 'how-to guide' for Yoga digestion.
I reproduce the earlier article below. It's rife with disturbing examples of Yoga digestion, but pay special attention to the writer's tone. And look for the section describing how Shal-OM replaces Om, very similar to the line I quoted from the more recent piece. Oddly, it seems NYTimes likes to print this type of article every few months or so:
....  " TO 'om' or not to 'om': For those who teach yoga in schools, that is a question that arises with regularity.The little syllable, often intoned by yoga students at the beginning and end of class, signifies different things to different people. But with its spiritual connotations, it is a potential tripwire for school administrators and parents, along with 'namaste' and other Sanskrit words, chanting and hands in the prayer position...." 

Ravi: Of the many comments this article has (111 & counting), one stood out for me as a classic example of Western/abrahaimc Universalist exclusivist
attitude:

"...As an observant Jew I am not comfortable performing sun salutations or invoking the names of Hindu deities any more than I would kneel in a church. But take out the references to hinduism & I can participate.

Religion isn't a buffet table for people to sample. For many people of faith seemingly innocuous practices from other cultures do conflict with their beliefs. I applaud the yoga instructors in this article for finding ways to
accommodate their students. "

So it appears that Religion" is'nt a buffet table, meaning Abrahamic ones, but "cultures" are, so that the item called "yoga" can be evaluated by itself, &
reshaped willy nilly....

Renu: The problem is that majority of us Hindus were brought up with the idea of sharing knowledge freely as that keeps it going and getting better. It is in recent years of Patent and copyright laws, that are causing a lot of
distress; these ignorant persons are super hungry to own and make money; want to own even trees, plants and things given by Bhagavaan. So there has to be a way to stop thru an international law any such digestion. ....what we need is a mass movement towards an understanding among majority of people that they need to take their lives in their own hands not leave to Churches who go around converting and Jihaading in the name of god/allah or what ever.

Pradip: The comment section following the article has several interesting comments. one that I liked is: "yoga, when practised regularly, will eventually make you revolt against monotheist intolerance, and thus endanger
your religion. buyers beware."

Poonam: Personally, after supporting that yoga is for everyone & not just Hindus, & that it has nothing to do with Hinduism, I have, as I grew older, & more knowledgable & wiser, have come to understand that Yoga IS A FORM OF HINDU WORSHIP. It is the process of preparing the body, the consciousness & the Atma of a Hindu to move on to the path of Nirvan/Moksh/or returning to Parabrahm. How can anyone do the yoga without the Sanskrit chants? each chant of the Yog is designed to generate the vibes & sounds that The chanting of the word jesus or mohammad or yaweh or allah does not produce the same effect. The chants practiced in Yoga are different from those that are used in the pooja
pranali & practice. The vibrations & the effects of the different sounds is a "scientifically measurable" entity. The moden day scientists are committing piracy by not testing it & then cutting it off from the roots.

Rajiv comment: Please read in BD my critique of Baba Ramdev for his stand that Aum can be replaced by Allah, Amen, etc. BD has a lot on the non-translatability
of mantras as vibrations, each with a distinct effect beyond its mental/conceptual meaning.

Virender: Instead of complaining that others are taking over YOGA, How many of us have taken concrete steps to claim that YOGA is Hindu spiritual and physical practice ? How many of us educated our Kids, friends or made public efforts to let world know YOGA is ours. It remind me of my mother who used to say it's the weak who complain not the strong ones. Let's be "Khstryias" and
start campaigns worldwide [ Does't matter how small or where] to educate the world of Hindu assets including Yoga. Otherwise lets thanks west/Muslim for making Yoga popular on world platform.

Krishna: Asanas can be considered as exercises. yoga can be taken as breathing exercise. As long as  physically,emotionally and mentally if yoga
helps one irrespective of religion can freely practice it. When Muslims have so much of resistance to use Sanskrit words,I don't know how so many Hindus and
particularly Bollywood people use the word Inshallah so frequently. Is it for fashion or they mean God or Bhagwan in general or do they actually mean Allah.

bluecupid shares:
Originally from Mumbai, this Muslim-Canadian yoga teacher writes her perspective on Yoga, Islam and identity;

April 11

Digestion of Vedic mantras
Gross misappropriation and digestion of vedic mantras http://www.churchofindia.org/maniiyer.htm...


April 11
The Intolerance of Tolerance
Surya posts: In his article on Huffington post titled "Tolerance Isn't Good Enough: The Need for Mutual Respect In Interfaith Relations", Rajivji wrote: Begin Quote: .....
In BD, Rajivji explains how the notion of tolerance is not free of intolerance and why it should  pave way for mutual respect.  

There are others who say the same thing with the opposite intent.  There are cases where some come out and admit that they cannot even stand tolerance.  Their intolerance is so steeped that they find tolerance itself intolerable.  

See the video below: (would like to see good responses to this video)

April 12
Arjunshakti responds:
"...These indians still live in the british raj even if they are getting knighted in some cheap beach in malta"

Rajiv comment: I know other Indians in New Jersey who are bloating over being "knighted by Malta" or some other Church subsidiary with a dark history. The new "knights" now are a bunch of brown dunces who want to buy (with newly made money) a seat at the white man's table. Its that simple, an inferiority complex. The Indian media, pop culture and elite circles in the metros are glamorizing
this. Thats the trend."

Surya: The West has for long mastered the value of soft power. The East has for long fallen for it. The use of gun salute to indicate relative power and respect during the colonial rule in India is a well known tactic. Rulers competed with each by offering favors and ceding powers to get more guns to salute them.  Difference anxiety from below (explained in BD, pages 25-36) is formalized and
entrenched in the society with this tactic; all rulers tacitly conceded that the 101 gun salute to the British Emperor makes the Emperor far superior to them since they were entitled to the 21 or fewer gun salute.

Knighthood conferred is similar. Similarity is that the one conferring the "status" is offering a valueless trinket or token in return for taking something valuable at the expense of the one conferred with the "status"..."


Karthik adds:
"The thing to recognize is that Western soft power is completely dependent on the global acceptance of Western universalism as a foundation. This is why Rajiv (and the rest of us) will face massive opposition in our task of challenging Western universalism: the effect is to knock over the pedestal and undermine the entire edifice of Western soft power. This represents a much deeper threat to Western hegemony, at all levels, than simply opposing missionary activity etc...."

April 13
UTurn prevention: Is there a Hindu equivalent of baptism?
Saxena asks: 
Just finished watching the Pondy event vids.

It would be interesting to find out from the German U-turner (and others) what their course of action would have been if the Aurobindo Ashram (and other dharmic traditional schools) required their equivalent of baptism in order to allow her to participate in their social life the way the church does.....

Rajiv comment: The strategy in BD is to use difference to create the desired effect. Example: Negate things like Nicene Creed without which they cannot be Christian - the German lady confirms when I ask her whether she believes in Nicene Creed. Using difference, undermine that which allows the DNA of the predator to function. For yoga based organizations like Sri Aurobindo, this
means explaining that history centrism is a grand nama-rupa which blocks progress in yoga. So Nicene Creed as nama-rupa runs counter to the teachings of
Sri A. This would achieve your goal to renounce "everything that goes contrary". Use chapter 2 to show that history centrism runs counter to Sri A's Integral
Yoga. Then show that Nicene Creed is the worst kind of history centrism. This forces the choice between mutually contradictory ideological positions. Gurus must learn this when teaching westerners.
 

April 14
Virginia Tech & Oikos University Massacres: Difference Anxiety the Root Cause?
Subra shares a blog post:
"An examination of the April 2007 Virginia Tech massacre and the April 2012 Oikos university shootings shows disturbing commonalities that suggest a probable root
cause of 'Difference Anxiety' ...

... Chapter 1: "Difference: Anxiety or Mutual Respect" that among other things, notes that rather than ignoring or trying to erase differences, they must be recognized and
respected.

The above two examples indicate that failing to respect differences can result in DA that may not be effectively manageable via prescription medication or "just praying", and can in the worst case, lead to violent problems in the
society."
 

April 14
Western digestion of ideas and philosophy.
Chocka asks: Is this one form of 'digestion'?
 
Rajiv comment: I would say so. He translates and maps many nontranslatables into common words in english. This means we no longer need to refer to Brahma, Vishnu, Maya, etc as these are replaced by simple ideas in popular culture. This type of writing and speaking is fashionable now and the trend is getting worse.

If you critique this, they will come back with arguments like: truth is one; ultimate reality is one; etc. This is false logic I have critiqued many times - I call it Moron Smriti. It is an App that has been downloaded to nearly all Indians.