Curating Rajiv Malhotra's Works. Online Resource, Database, Crowd Sourcing, and Expert Feedback on Contemporary Hinduism, Dharmic India, and topics covered in 'Breaking India', 'Being Different: An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism", 'Indra's Net: Defending Hinduism's Philosophical Unity', 'The Battle For Sanskrit', and the newly released book 'Academic Hinduphobia'.
Akshay posts: "I edited some articles in Wikipedia.
sometime
ago I had replaced Dharma with religion in many articles. But this is
not enough, We have re-write, re-contextualize ( for this I'm waiting
for U-Turn Theory, Noted & Bibliography will help ) most of the
articles under Dharmic frameworks. Today i added,
A similar
transformation appears to have taken place in the case of good
practicing Hindus as a result of India adopting a an avowedly 'secular'
constitution (post the Constitutional amendment to this effect in 1976).
The only way Hindus could continue to remain good practicing Hindus was
by conducting themselves in the public domain in a manner as secular as
possible without compromising on their Hindu practices in private &
for a minority of them also to explore how the secular ethos could be
turned into an opportunity to promote the positive aspects of Hindu way
of life in society in general. This however, did provide this group an
opportunity to promote social reforms in Hinduism to rid it of all the
unhealthy practices which had crept in it over the last 1000 years or
so, about which one Eddie in the group keeps whining.
The opportunists among the Hindus were quick to jump on the secular bandwagon,..."
February 22 (continuing discussion from Feb 21) Re: Coexistence with India - A Dawn Blog Prashant adds: A more elaborate analysis along similar lines can be found in M J Akbar's book Tinderbook...
The Lost Tribes of the Amazon Often described as “uncontacted,” isolated groups living deep in the South American forest resist the ways of the modern world—at least for now..."
February 22 (continuing discussion from Feb 19) Re: Evangelical Christian group helps sue California school over yoga Raghu posts: "What you say about the way the Krishnamacharya-Desikachar heritage is
going is true. I was one of the early teachers in KYM. I taught there
for more than a decade. When Desikachar's young son Kausthubh took over,
he went back on many of the teachings. He was openly irreverent to the
heritage, and was keen on reversing his fathers investments in the
institution.... a very
far cry from the Yogacharya Krishnamacharya. He has gone far away from
the discipline, and we suspect his real learning too. He was recently
accused of...."
February 24 Re: : Recording of my MSNBC television panel discussion: On Bobby JiMenon posts: I felt pained when I heard the conversion story of Jindal. I wondered how such an intelligent person with pious hindu parents could get attracted to such dogmatic political outfit such as christianity. Even without looking deeper into what his own Dharmic and rich / scientific / universal and unbroken heritage since the time of creation has to offer to him, he got attracted to the glamour of power and riches, which he would come to experience as temporary and therefore, superfluous & unreal...
Rajiv responds: While you dont understand why converted people keep Hindu names, I dont understand why so-called Hindu activists have not learned such basic things despite the fact that:
1) The practice is very old and common.
2) Many of us have written and discussed this for so many years. JP posts: "More such Bobby Jindal's are manufactured in the church on a daily
basis with a strategy and plan. Please see the forwarded mail below. Not
only do they keep Hindu names but they also....They are now also using the sport cricket as a means to
convert people. The boldness of the mail was shocking. Please go
through it.
"Dear Upward families at Eastview Christian Church,
As most of you know by now, Eastview recently decided to invest some money and effort into a new ministry effort. We built a brand new cricket field! Cricket is the second most popular sport in the world, and we are trusting that the sport will become a great platform for us to engage in ministry with our culture in McLean County. We now have a sub-culture of around 6,000 Asian Indians living in our community. Many of these individuals are extremely open to integrating into our culture.
The God we love and serve wants all people to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4)…including those that are not like us but that are living among us for a time...." Pushpa adds: "Most Hindus think that the abandoned Church buildings are a sign of decline of Christianity. That is obviously not the case. Christians have found other novel ways to push their agenda. Through sports as pointed here. Another one where some of our leaders, sadhus, mahatmas, etc are being lured is the "Environmental" movement. Craving for a spot on the international stage, these Swamis ... entertain Church funded environmental events. Disguised as innocuous sounding earth projects, usually the headed by Hindus or Hindu sounding puppets,...The Maha Kumbh is the latest example where Harvard University made headlines on a daily basis. This is by no means to say that Harvard project is Church funded. The point here is that a project that is headed by anti-Hindu woman like Diana Eck is not going to yield anything of value for the Hindu community. There is obviously another agenda. The shocking fact is that, in spite of being warned, people like Swami Chidananda gave a red carpet welcome to Diana Eck and company. Can one imagine such a thing happening in Mecca or Medina?
Rajiv comment: I am glad at least a few persons get it. Thanks. Most mahatmas I met are morons suffering from whiteness inferiority complex - very sad but we must deal with it honestly."
Manish comments: ".....I am personally yet to meet a Hindu priest / Guru who
can hold an informed conversation on anything outside the narrow
confines of the religious ceremonies he conducts. Almost all of them are
steeped in the sameness meme. Most are utterly other-worldly in their
mental outlook, out of touch with the practical realities of the 21st
century.
But then it
is the structure of our society that is largely to blame for this state
of affairs --- a Hindu priest or a sadhu has to depend on the dakshina
that a yajmaan pays him (in contrast to a xian priest who lords it over a
church and is paid a fixed salary).
This
dakshina-dependence may have worked well in the hoary past when the
priests enjoyed state patronage but by the 20th/21st centuries, in
Nehruvian India, dakshina-dependence has become such a
self-respect-shattering arrangement that Hindu priesthood would never
attract bright young persons. .."
I immediately recalled the thought experiment that Shri Rajiv Malhotra did during the launch of the book Invading The Sacred in 2007 i had heard on YouTube. There he had mentioned how idea of India is determined by bodies who
fund studies in India. The above article is perhaps the first expose in India media of that link and its ramification for Indian policy making and safe guarding its long term interests. I only wonder how correct he was then !!..."
February 16 Sunday 11am on MSNBC television panel
I will be on the Melissa Harris Show at 11 am (Eastern Standard Time) on MSBNC. The themes are: American minorities, the context in Black History month....
February 18 (continuing discussion from previous week)
I like your response. However, I think we also have to look at
minds that are conditioned by the teaching and the social constructs
that the teaching implies.
A Hindu mind seems
to have two characteristics that are important in this context. One the
ability to accept different ways, and the other to act from a sense of
generosity. These are civilization-ally more advanced than mono cultures
of thought and hierarchical political control. Over the years, it has
turned into a passivity. This passivity was leveraged to great advantage
by Gandhiji, but it has also led to a glorification of non violence.
The non violence of Gandhiji was very powerful, it s not afraid of
confrontation or of being violated.
When such a
mind confronts the aggressive and predatory mind, it fails to value
itself. Rajivji's analysis of difference anxiety is spot on. In my
behavioural work self-hate of being Indian reveals itself often..."
Thatte responds: ".......why the tendency of all religions are same seems to
pervade amongst a number of people - Hindus and non-Hindus..
In my analytical model for a religion, (and by the way, this
is applicable to all religions) the outer layer is comprised of rites, rituals,
festivals and practices. ...The next layer is comprised of values. Values dictate how one
lives in a society. Since most religions
claim to promote harmony in the society the
values tend to be very similar.
For example, the key values of Hinduism are:
1.Truth (Satyam)
2.Purity (Satva Shuddhi)
3.Self- Control (Brahmacharya)
4.Non-Violence (Ahimsa)
5.Charity (Danam)
6.Forgiveness (Kshama)
7.Detachment (Vairagya)
Different religions may emphasize certain values more than
others. But, by and large these values
are professed by all religions. This is where most people stop and take a
position that all religions are same...."
Surya responds: "The tiger and deer metaphor comes to mind. It is the nature of tiger to be predatory. Deer is better off understanding this and behaving accordingly..."
Karthik responds: "A highly relevant passage from the article:
Ann
Gleig, the editor of Religious Studies Review and assistant professor
of religious studies at the University of Central Florida, said in an
email that two groups have continually asserted that yoga is inherently
religious evangelical Christians, and some Hindus who want to
preserve the practice's religious influences.
"So
both of these
groups, which have very different agendas, ironically support each other
in an historically flawed construction of yoga as an essential
unchanging religious practice that is the 'property' of Hinduism," Gleig
said.
{It
is Gleig's analysis that is flawed by essentialization. She considers
the Christian category of "religion" to be equivalent to, and
interchangeable with, Hindu traditional utilization of yoga as a
"religious" practice. In Hindu spiritual traditions, yoga is one of many
techniques by which the truth of man's ultimate unity with the Supreme
can be verified, empirically, at a personal level. Christian religion
does not allow for man to unite with the Supreme, and only permits
communion with the Supreme through specific intermediaries and
institutions. Hence, any technique which may verify an idea inherently
blasphemous within Christianity (direct personal experience of unity
between man and the Supreme)
does, in fact, stand in direct opposition to Christianity. Yoga may not
be anybody's "property" but it can never, ever be practiced by religious
Christians without blaspheming the very foundations of their religion,
i.e. the Nicene Creed.
Gleig's
canard that a religious practice must be "unchanging" in order to
remain the "property" of a particular religion, is another example of
her flawed understanding. Hinduism is not history-centric, as Abrahamic
religions are. The wealth of our knowledge system isn't static, it's
always evolving; but for all that, it remains
our own, and the credit isn't up for grabs.}
Andrea
Jain, assistant professor of religious studies at Indiana
University-Purdue University Indianapolis said that the forms of
yoga commonly practiced in the US are the result of the mix of colonial
India and euro-American physical culture.
"In fact, postural yoga has been shown to be a successor of fitness methods that were already common in parts of Europe and the United States
before postural yoga was introduced," Jain said. "So we could think of
postural yoga as a 20th century product, the aims of which include all
sorts of modern conceptions of physical fitness, stress reduction,
beauty and well-being, these things were not present in pre-colonial
traditions of yoga at all."
{According
to this Andrea Jain, "conceptions" of physical fitness, stress
reduction, beauty and well-being were completely absent from
pre-colonial India, and hence could not have played any role in
inspiring people to practice yoga in pre-colonial Hinduism. Instead,
because these "aims" existed only among people of colonial India, Europe
and the United States... ITSELF a dubious and highly problematic
claim... then any technique applied to fulfill such "aims", no matter
what its origins, belongs only to those who experience it in pursuit of
those "aims", and not to those who originated it.
....
These postural forms of yoga include Ashtanga yoga, which was introduced in the early 20th century.
"Unless
we
want to argue that contemporary American culture and its valorization
of physical fitness, beauty and health, modern conceptions of those
things are religious values, then we really can't identify yoga
as religious," Jain said. "We certainly can't identify it as essentially
Hindu."
{Andrea
Jain casually transfers attributes from the subject of her argument
(Americans steeped in a culture that valorizes fitness, etc.) to the
object of her argument (Yoga itself). Is it her faint hope that no one
will notice this rather sloppy and intellectually dishonest
sleight-of-hand?
If
I use a fountain pen, not to write but to stab people to death... is it
now no longer a writing instrument? Is Louis Waterman (the inventor)
now a weapon-maker? Or is Louis Waterman to be deprived of all credit
for inventing the fountain pen at all?...
As
a child in India I would watch Mickey Mouse cartoons, and "identify"
with the character Mickey Mouse in terms of other, pre-existing "mouse"
representations in my own culture... such as the more familiar Mouse
from the Panchatantra fable, who freed the pigeons from the hunter's net
out of cleverness, loyalty and compassion. ... Does this mean that Mickey Mouse is
no longer quintessentially American but Indian? Does MY experience (as
the "subject" experiencing Mickey Mouse) count for more in defining what
Mickey Mouse is, than Mickey's (the "object"s) intrinsic origins? }
Manas posts:
"Ann Gleig, one of the academics quoted in that piece is
associated with a group called, "Modern Yoga Research" which includes
Mark Singleton, one of the primary exponents of the
not-Hindu-but-is-Euro-American-Christian "postural"-yoga thesis.
Singleton's name has previously come up in this forum. Singleton is also
associated with a notorious Hardvard academic's sidekick and this
"modern yoga research" group has been endorsed by this sidekick in the
e-list he runs. In a recent AAR conference, Singleton presented a paper
titled, "Christian Influences in the Development of Modern Yoga". A
search in this forum archives will provide more information on these
dangerous nexuses and their agendas."
Rajiv comment: I agree
fully. I wish more persons were informed as the person who posted this.
We have too much uninformed opinion and forwarding the same stuff to
look important - that is counter productive.
I have known of
Singleton's work for many years which only recently started becoming
public this way. Too many Hindus continue to support such works. The
co-editor of his forthcoming book infiltrated Vivekanandra Kendra's yoga
camp, took lots of notes and recordings which her web site proudly says
will be used to expose yoga gurus. The very same folks who find my
works "too controversial" to promote and claim they dont have funds to
support it either, line up in awe when they welcome such visitors and
scholars. The decadence within Hindu leadership is amazing. These are
termites who have caused the decay. Because I point this out openly in
order to warn others from joining such bandwagons, I am branded.
Koenraad Elst responds to Karthik:
Recap for comment 1: "....So both of these groups, which have very different agendas, ironically support eachother in an historically flawed construction of yoga as an essentialunchanging religious practice that is the 'property' of Hinduism," Gleig said.
... In Hindu spiritual traditions, yoga is one of many techniques by which thetruth of man's ultimate unity with the Supreme can be verified, empirically, ata personal level."
Patanjala Yoga Sutra, known till Shankara as a branch of Sankhya or simply asPatanjala Darshana, defines yoga in an atheistic way. "Yoga is the stopping ofthe motions of the mind" is a purely technical definition. The next verse, "Thenthe seer rests in himself", defines the goal of yoga as "isolation" (kaivalya),i.e. of consciousness (purusha) from its objects (sensory perceptions, desires,memories, intellection, all belonging to the less or more rarefied reaches ofnature/prakrti). In both phrases, there is no God in the picture, He has nothingat all to do with the goal of yoga.
Patanjali makes a practical concession to the believers among his readers bysaying that "devotion to God" is one of the preparatory stages of yoga. Hedefines God/Ishvara exactly like radically atheist Jains define their liberated
souls, namely as a desireless purusha; so it remains highly uncertain that "God"as currently understood is meant. At any rate, he refuses to make this specialpurusha somehow the goal of his yoga. Yoga does not revolve around an externalbeing called God, but is purely a matter of relating to yourself, viz. totallysinking into yourself and forgetting about the world and the "tentacles" ofconsciousness into it.
When modern Hindus speak about yoga (and they speak about it a lot but practiseit very little), they have a distorted view of it, inflected by what has been
the dominant stream in Hinduism for centuries, viz. theistic bhakti (devotion)."Unity with God", whatever that may mean, is a concept from bhakti/sufism andalso adopted by some writers on Christian mysticism. But it is completelyabsent in historical yoga as defined by Patanjali.
Yoga is very much part of Hindu civilization, but is not the property ofcontemporary God-centered Hindus.
I am currently finishing a booklet for the greater public on the externalenemies of Hinduism. It will make me very popular among Hindus. But next, I wantto write a similar booklet about the internal enemies of Hinduism, or is otherwords: what is wrong with the Hindus... itwill certainly make me many enemies among Hindus. They don't like a Westernercriticizing them, though I have most of it from Hindus themselves. At any rate,if Hindus don't make a systematic diagnosis of the problem, someone else has todo it. And the current (sentimenal and confused) Hindu bhakti notion of "God" iscertainly a big part of the problem.
Recap for comment 2: " ... Andrea Jain, assistant professor of religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis said that the forms of yoga
commonly practiced in the US are the result of the mix of colonial India andeuro-American physical culture.:
> "In fact, postural yoga has been shown to be a successor of fitness methods that were already common in parts of Europe and the United States beforepostural yoga was introduced," Jain said. "So we could think of> postural yoga as a 20th century product, the aims of which include allsorts of modern conceptions of physical fitness, stress reduction,beauty and well-being, these things were not present in pre-colonialtraditions of yoga at all."
This supposed expert Andrea Jain is simply parrotting a very recent theory. Sheis plainly wrong, for yoga in the sense of meditation is very ancient, and wasgiven a synthesis (of pre-existing views) by Patanjali. As for postural yoga, itdates back at least to the Nath yogis, who started in maybe 1100 AD, beforeMuslim rule in the Ganga plain, when the British were nowhere in the picture andAmerica as a state didn't even exist yet.
Unlike Patanjala Yoga (meditation) the more recent postural Hatha Yoga is indeeddirected to relaxation and fitness. Hatha Yoga classics promise you a lustrousbody and concomitant success with the opposite sex -- not quite the goal ofPatanjala Yoga, but very much the goal of Madonna and millions of other Americanyoga practitioners. But whatever may be the worth of that, Indians invented itthemselves, long before British conceptions of fitness could (marginally)influence it."
tvikhanas also catches the falsehood on postural Yoga: "This lie is now popping up in many places. Looks like this is the currently favored strategy to break up Asanas from the larger Hatha Yoga (and that in turnfrom Hinduism).
The overall story goes like this: Hatha Yoga Pradipa (HYP) is the founding textof Hatha Yoga and is 500 yrs old. HYP mentions only a dozen or so seated poses.
The rest and more advanced poses are recent invention. In fact, they wereinvented in 20th century under the influence of militarism & British physicalculture. The pioneer of this was Krishnamacharya, the guru of BKS Iyengar,Pattabhi Jois and others. .... Ergo case established and we can reclaim what is really ours afterputting it through due scientific process to clear it of all undesirable
cultural/religious/superstitious baggage.
We are going to hear a lot more about "Modern Yoga", "Postural Yoga".The story is of course garbage and it has any number of holes:
1.HYP is dated to 500 yrs based the usual fraudulent methods.
2. Sri Krishnamacharya himself credited a Yogi living in Himalayas for teachinghim Yoga. (Incidentally, one of the sons of Sri Krishnamacharya, Desikacharseems to crave western approval & money. He and his son keep dishing outwhatever nonsense western "yogis" want, like Yoga is not religious etc)
3. HYP itself acknowledges there more poses than the dozen or so it describes indetail. This is in line with Indian tradition where only the important pointsare given and rest left to the living tradition or pupil's effort. Quite
different from western patent driven approach where the goal is claim as muchfor oneself as possible.
4. Within Hatha Yoga asanas themselves are quite preparatory. The real deal ispranayama, bandhas etc. So it is stupid to expect HYP to devote all the space toa minor aspect.
5. Vedantins condemned the focus on body that Hatha Yogis fall into. Traditionalsannyasins in orthodox mathas practice hatha yoga.
6. Ayurveda uses asanas in treatment for various disorders. Traditional danceposes are closely linked to some asanas.
So on and on.
This story seems have started with Mark Singleton's book Yoga Body. Singletonseems to be church funded. He is very well published in all the right placesOxford University Press etc (which probably are held directly or indirectly bythe church as well). He teaches at St. John's College at New Mexico, aChristian institution. Take a look at his website(http://modernyogaresearch.org/people/dr-mark-singleton/), it's a real masterpiece of deception. A casual observer will think he is very sympathetic to
Yoga/India and not understand why we should be critical of his work..."
Ram notes:
"....We won't accomplish much by circular debates within
this forum. We may educate (and frustrate) ourselves in the process and provide necessary ears and eyes for Rajivji, but members should be encouraged to individually bring open pressure on systemic forces bent on expropriating,
abusing, denigrating, or marginalizing the wisdom and achievements of India.
Since joining this forum and reading Rajivji's book "Being Different", I am encouraged to be more assertive in speaking up and defending what's mine!..."
Srinath asks: "What should Andrea Jain have said? A lot of Indians might offer up similar analyses in the hopes of diffusing criticism that Yoga is religious, which could serve to turn-off American Christians. Indians are usually very eager to enhance Western acceptance of India and Indian philosophies as we have been looked down upon by the West for so long, and perhaps water-down concepts to make them more acceptable..."
February 19 Digesting the gurus Rajiv posts: The ... Huffpost blog criticizes westerners who look for "eastern gurus". This type of rethinking is quite a phenomenon for a few decades now. They turn away from the source and replacing it with westerners as the new source. Note how the two authors are now the
gurus, with their own marketing programs. Note that all their spiritual leaders" are these uturned people - see list at the bottom of the blog where they are selling them. All this is justified using a quote from Ramana Maharshi. If the purpose is to be one's own guru, why are Ed and Deb selling their own products? It is just one kind of guru replacing another. Yet out folks go ga-ga when they see such people showing their "sympathy" for Hindu dharma. There is one thread someone on how exciting it is to see some harvard people studying kumbh mela. ...Amazing inferiority complex. Yet they love to organize events with fancy themes like "decolonizing Hindu Studies". Nothing really changes after participating in 20 years of hundreds of such events - because its fake and meant to impress.The tiger says that he loves the deer. The stupid deer takes it as a great compliment."
February 20 Dharmic perspective on Artificial consciousness Amol posts: What is the Dharmic perspective on 'whether machines can develop consciousness'. Have our philosophies answered these questions ? I am curious to know.
Miguel Nicolelis is a leading neuroscientist working on brain machine interfaces and he says that "human consciousness (and if you believe in it, the soul) simply can't be replicated in silicon. That's because its most important features are the result of unpredictable, non-linear interactions amongst billions of cells..."
February 20 My recent event at Princeton University This past Monday, I had a different kind of academic event for my book, "Being Different".
This was a big success. Two Hindu student leaders, ... along with the dean of religious life, .... organized something with a
different format than usual. .... it was not open to the general public ...One woman minister from the Presbyterian Church generated an
interesting discussion with me. She appreciated many things but
disagreed with my depiction of Christianity concerning its fear of "chaos" and obsession with "order". She cited some good counter examples. I responded by citing that Aristotle's Law of the Excluded Middle
had become deeply embedded into Christianity ever since Augustine
started what we know as "Christian theology". This law extols normative
thinking and cannot deal with ambiguity, flux, uncertainty, etc. She
agreed with the facts, but felt that this Greco-Roman takeover was not
the "real Christianity". Then I mentioned my next point that western
corporate institutions (the Roman Church being the first multinational)
were mechanisms of power/control and expansionism, and these were built
on normative rules, policies, governance, etc. The whole notion of
normative "commandments" from God and absolute "laws" imposed on peoples
was the product of history centrism. This is very different than decentralized embodied knowing
approaches in dharma, which the Christians persecuted in their own
mystics. I did not expect her to get convinced, but I must say she was
quite open and we had a healthy exchange.
The purpose of such exchanges (as all debates) is to benefit and educate the audience who are watching.
Hindu students need more events where their stance is resilient to
being toppled easily. Too often we have leaders who either capitulate
easily by hitting the "sameness" button in panic (once they feel
cornered), or the opposite extreme when they resort to anger or
chauvinistic proclamations. I don't think either extreme works. We need
calm, informed positions that can be backed up with evidence. For young
minds today the extreme/unintellectual approaches are a good way to turn
off people. We need serious responses that make sense. This capability
comes from long-term research and debating experience, something too
many of our folks want to bypass by taking shortcuts...
.....some years back one top caliber MA graduate of the same
seminary worked for me as a research intern on a full-time basis. This
man was simply brilliant, and also open minded. ....He
helped my work a great deal, especially in anticipating and responding
to issues raised by Christians. Because we had frequent brainstorm
sessions to churn on serious Hindu/Christian differences, he also started to rethink what he had been taught in the seminary.
By the end of his year long internship with me, he told me that he had
changed his career plans. He would no longer pursue the career of a
church minister or theologian. .....After hearing this, she said that she might also
be heading in the same direction herself, as my previous intern. So I
will be evaluating her as a candidate to help my work. ... I want the other party to be candid
and able to argue against my positions, because that churning is
precisely what strengthens my final work. Whether the other party
changes or not is unimportant to me. If they can help improve my work,
that's what I appreciate.
I posted the comment below, as a first line of defense and to promote Rajiv's work.
"oh dear, yet another of these articles which tries to build on a fabricated idea of Indian history in a sweeping way. I wonder how qualified the author of this article really is.
Some brief thoughts:
1) The Aryan Invasion Theory has been discredited - it has no basis!
Importantly this was an imported idea, this supposed invasion finds no mention within classical Indian history or within its own texts, it was used primarily to justify British plunder and rule. The Sanskrit term "Arya" denotes a human characteristic: noble, righteous etc....The term was later hijacked by European Indologists ... read Rajiv Malhotra " Breaking India, Western Interventions in Dalit and Dravidian Faultlines" or Rajiv Malhotra "Being
Different". Here is someone who is an intellectual, historian and has knowledge of Sanskrit.
If Charles Allen considers himself a serious scholar/researcher then I look forward to reading what he has to say in response to whats put forward in these
two books, particularly the first one, which trash much of what he has said above.
Indian history, as its studied now, begins with conquests, first the Moghuls and then the Europeans. This has given rise to a sorry generation of Indians, who have only been familiar with a history of conquest. This then gives space for such misleading article titles, such as the one Charles has used. Just consider ancient Indian contributions to the world (there are too many to mention) the concept of Zero, the 1-10 number system (referred to as Arabic, but in fact
having an Indian origin, the Arabs being the middle men in the transition of knowledge from East to West) Language, the antiquity and unparalleled sophistication of Sanskrit (Panini), Medicine (Ayurveda), Integrated Spiritual/Mind/Body Sciences (Yoga). Indian academia has even till now struggled to throw of the Macualite shackles.
....glossing over history or worse still, fabricating it, just will not do! What Indians suffered here was akin to a holocaust in its magnitude of impact upon millions of people, except over a much longer period of time. Empire
was all about Money, Control and Power hiding behind a veil of a "a necessary civilizing mission that the white man had to burden. "
Dear Rajiv-ji, This refers to your recent blog post titled *'**'
We need to study western ‘White’ culture on our own terms'
...
Manish responds to a previous comment:
"... Hindus, IMHO, have only two options at the current juncture in our
history --- congregate or perish ! Stark, simple. It is only at these
congregations that we shall be able to assert our collective identity
with full confidence.
....If it means changing our millenia old
habit of non-congregation, then we must change that habit. It has been
done --- by the Arya Samajis, for instance. It won't be easy, for sure,
but giving up is not an option.
Btw, you have highlighted a very interesting difference b/w the Hindu communities of Canada and US..."
Rajiv comment:
"But this also requires competent, selfless leadership.
Otherwise the "congregation", is misled as we often find today. The
leadership job description demands solid knowledge of the global
discourse kurukshetra, which I must say very, very few leaders have.
They are too busy inside the organization playing personal politics to
impress and climb up. Most individuals I know lack the ability to do
concentrated intellectual work over a long term to produce breakthrough
results. .... they are tamasic-rajasic
combo.
Just look at some recent fund raising campaigns going on - sucking in
millions of dollars of the community with hype and promises, but these
leaders have zero experience to actually do anything like this. They
wasted their lives in useless pursuits and back slapping each other with
mutual congratulations. Now in their late years they are desperate to
show some result. So its easy for them to appropriate some slogans, one
liners, slick Powerpoints. But that is hollow. In other words, our
community lacks a solid leadership training institution. I mean at the
level of IIMs where they could learn the skills to be on the world stage
representing dharma."
Anila shares an Indo-Canadian perspective:
".... I must indicate that while
America does operate more like a melting pot and Canada is more like a
"mosaic" there is still no comparison to the level of self-confidence
and strength of identity seen in other immigrant cultures, especially
amongst us second generation youngsters born here in North America.
Growing up in Canada, in spite of the occasional cultural
shows, festivals and get-togethers with fellow Indian families that I
attended, there was a sense of isolation from the friends I had in
school and the manner in which they lived their lives. In my younger
years, I often found myself (and many youth) feeling that the
expectations of Indian standards of culture, tradition and morality were
being imposed upon us and alienating us from the remaining youngsters.
It took me some years of growth to finally learn what it was that my
parents were trying to teach me, and the realization came most
powerfully when I finally engaged with peers who were proud of their
culture (select students from India or students who were brought up here
but were lucky enough to have been taught from a young age about the
details of culture history).
....it is also
important to create spaces for youth to learn about their past, learn
about their religious background and also be given the freedom to debate
issues with one another. ...This freedom to question, to understand
all aspects of life on this planet by seeking truth, is the very essence
of Hindu philosophy (and I will go so far as to indicate that it is not
as powerfully prescribed in other cultures or religions).
....Simply being in a community with families whose parents were
from the same motherland is not enough to inspire pride and true
understanding of culture. It is important that youngsters learn the
basics of Hindu philosophy, and learn their history, so that they can
teach the next generations of our diaspora and be proud of who they are
in spite of the fact they are not like the others they interact with
daily. And from what I am seeing more and more, the need for this kind
of education lies not only here, but also in India....."
February 3 Prashanth:
"Hi Was wondering if the group has come across this piece of news about our national security advisor's assertion in Munich.
I am just wondering if Rajivji's influence is hitting South Block already
Rajiv comment:
He was at the closed door meeting at Indian International Center where they discussed "Breaking India", chaired by former Foreign Secretary, Kanwal Sibal. BTW, the new jacket of BI has the endorsement by Kanwal Sibal which is a very important statement. See: http://www.breakingindia.com/new-book-cover/"
Srinath says: "... Abrahamic religions eliminate competition from native (non history centric) spiritualities by digesting them as well - when genocide is either impractical or the value added by digesting the prey is higher than its total elimination. Even their violent methods are a brute form of digestion .... Digestion infuses new life and ideas into a parasitic host which is non self-sustaining andover time would have collapsed under its own weight of dogma - existence of other creative civilizations allow the conflict to be externalized, offering outlets for frustrations and channelizing rebellious tendencies towards conquest (death in battle etc. incentivized by core requirements of host survival/expansion). "
[egroup commentators react to Rajiv's MSNBC discussion]
February 4 Recording of my MSNBC television interview Vish: While all around congratulations are in order,
I look forward to the day when I can watch RM make it into a Dinesh
D'Souza or a Bill Moyer panel on National TV.
... I don't know this for a fact, but I wonder if Moyer
would ever constitute a panel that might share something like"Now, lets
ask what our Hindus or Buddhists or Sikh friends might have to say about
this?"
Girish: Great ! You cleared
mentioned the reason why Bobby converted..... Gopal: ....fantastic to see you putting forward the perspective so lucidly.
That is the need today.A Hindu voice on mainstream media. A voice that
is clear, that is balanced, that holds itself on firm ground and is not
lost in the confusion of the society.
The choice of words are
profound and deep, for example, "Every thing about Jindal is white
except the color of his skin" You stood as one amongst equals on
national TV. ... On your next trip to Toronto we
should get you onto "The agenda" by Steve Paikin. That is one the
intellectually strong programme's on Canadian networks.
Kushal: ...a great sense of pride for me to see you there. you made some vital points.
February 4
Germany scholar is in Chennai for doing interviews on BI
I received the following email. Those in Chennai might want
to follow up with the individual directly and then let us know what happens. Note his dravidian interests. Only some competent
persons should do this. As preparation, study his research goals, who else he
is meeting, his professor's past publications, etc.
My name is Bjorn [] and I am a research
assistant and PhD student [] at the Institute [] in Germany. In order to collect data for a research project on ‘westernization’ as one
aspect of globalization I am going to interview representatives of political,
especially dravidian, parties in Chennai. I am interested in Tamil Nadu's party’s and party member’s personal opinions
about all kinds of influences western countries have on India in general and
Tamil Nadu in particular. Because your book Breaking India is currently a very inspiring source for my
view on the Dravidian movement .."
February 5 subra shares: "Kareem Abdul Jabbar, NBA legend and African American, reverses the gaze, analyzes western monoculture, and encounters air-resistance..."
February 6 Prashanth posts: God Loves Uganda" is a film that was part of the official selection of the prestigious sundance film festival.
"God Loves Uganda explores the role of the American evangelical movement in Uganda, where American missionaries have been credited with both creating schools and hospitals and promoting dangerous religious bigotry. ...attempt the radical task of eliminating "sexual sin" and converting Ugandans to fundamentalist Christianity." February 7
"One of several patterns of Uturns is when the scholar takes Hindu
contributions to the West, and reclassifies them as "Asian" or something
broader, in order to dilute the Hindu origins. Example:
In the
mid 1990s, Infinity Foundation gave a grant to a Western scholar of
Hinduism who specializes in music. His proposal was to travel to
European museums and see if the oldest musical instruments in Europe
were of Indian origin or had been influenced from India. He was to use
this physical evidence combined with text based evidence that early
European music was influenced by the raga, and Indian instruments
influenced European ones. We gave this grant with great enthusiasm. But
then nothing came out of it since almost 2 decades.
Recently I got the following disappointing status:
"After
submitting the project several times for publication, it has been
rejected by many good publishers on various grounds. I always try to get
it into a "university press" if possible. I
have since reworked the concept into a broader spectrum of
"Indo-Iranian
Contributions or Influences on the West" which has now some prospective
takers. The new framework takes us back to Zoroastrianism's influence
on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as the very pronounced
musical influences (and chant) upon all three,
etc. ...."
Most
of our "dharma" activists dishing out grants would be awestruck to hear
him play sitar, impressed that he gives lectures on Indian music at
prestigious places. It depends upon how high you raise the standard.I find this shift from Indian to Indo-Iranian unacceptable.
In other words, raga gets classified somehow as Zoroastrian and hence
its spread to the West is easier to sell to publishers. I have written
by disappointment quite candidly."
Gene posts:
"You could change the world if you were to
present
the Hindu Concept of Kundalini to America in strictly
scientific terms. One strong supporter ... Dr. Karan Singh, M.P. He would be 100% behind you in this cause."
Rajiv comment: No. Its already been highly digested precisely because of
these so-called "scientific" terms. The tendency has been to use the
pretext of science to de-contextualize the categories, and thus prepare
them to get re-contextualized (i.e. digested). That's what I am exposing
in my work on digestion. Regarding Dr. Karan Singh: I have known him
personally and admire many qualities in him. But political ambitions
turns into political correctness and this can compromise a person's
ability to take a strong stand for dharma. To be specific: Disappointed
at the way under his watch Auroville has been turned over to leaders who
are rapidly facilitating it to get digested into the belly of Ken
Wilber via various suction mechanisms at work there."
tvikhanas responds: "I have noticed this pattern several times too, from mathematics to yoga. If West wants to deny precise credit, all it has to do is claim in a very reasonable and enlightened manner that cultures x, y, z apart from India too had these ideas in one form or the other. The implication would be there is nothing special in India's discovery and West can rightly claim it is "humanity's" discovery.
We see this happening big time when it is claimed that native Americans had "spirituality", Africans had "spirituality", Chinese Taoists had "spirituality" etc. It goes without saying that the superior whites also had "spirituality" and Indian "spirituality" is up for grabs without due acknowledgement. The same is happening when Yogis are lumped with shamans/medicine men, "higher consciousness" is bandied about as if it is an obvious thing that every one,
including the West, knew about. Huxley's Perennial Philosophy is the classic example of this strategy to appropriate Indic thought/techniques. But when it
comes to West's discoveries the standards for drawing comparisons suddenly become very stringent.
This "everyone in every age had it" has the effect of taking Indians away from their authentic tradition to a low grade mishmash created by third rate academic charlatans. Ground fact is that there is simply no comparison between Indic traditions and any other culture. The "spirituality" label, while convenient in certain contexts, can hardly do justice to the reality."
Rajiv comment: Well said.
February 7 infinitestars shares: .....Good talk by Mr Jay Lakhani but he also seem to be
having the same problem like many hindus have ie everything is the same.
Please watch this video esp between 34:40----37:25
February 8
Is there a secular ayurveda: Cultural Issues in Bringing Ayurveda to Venkat shares: A highly relevant article as the author discusses the perils of secular ayurveda... The author concludes that "Sanskritization and Inculturation must go hand in hand, as we read both the text of the Ayurvedic classics, our only source of authority and authenticity, and the text of the current life situation."
Introduction Transplanting Ayurveda to the West raises a number of significant cutural issues. An ancient, indigenous indian art, Ayurveda has evolved within a specific cultural and religious milieu. The cultural context of a country such as the USA is in many ways the polar opposite of this milieu. How can we transplant Ayurveda to this culture without doing violence either to the integrity of the teachings or to the cultural bias of our students and patients? In this paper, rather than attempting to provide answers, we will highlight some of the issues as well as suggesting a conceptual frame within which to understand the ways in which we may choose to make
this adaptation.
What Happens When Cultures Meet?
Jesuit missionaries, engaged for the last four hundred years in
bringing Catholicism to different lands, have described two different dynamics at play in the meeting of cultures.The first is Inculturation...."
Harvard’s next case study: The logistics and
economics behind Kumbh Mela, the largest human gathering in history By
Logan...
...This week, the city of Allahabad in northern India
kicks off the Kumbh Mela, a 48-day Hindu festival that is expected to be
the largest human gathering in history. In addition to the more-than 30
million pilgrims descending upon the flood plain of the Yamuna and
Ganges rivers, the Kumbh will host a team of Harvard researchers in what
is likely the school’s more inter-disciplinary project ever. I will be
traveling among them, assisting a team of emergency physicians and
praying against stampedes.
The Kumbh Mela, which historically has received little press in the
West, takes place every four years, and gains special significance every
12. This year, 2013, will be that 12th year—called the Purna
(―complete‖) Kumbh and officials expect somewhere between 30 million and
60 million ascetics and pilgrims to travel to holy sites to bathe. .....―How on earth is an event of
this size possible?‖ To fully grapple with this question, the scale of
the Kumbh needs to be put in perspective. Imagine the entire population
of Shanghai—about 23 million—..."
The Pioneer January 22, 2013 Churning of tradition and culture
After the British ousted the Mughals and took over large parts of India, the Kumbh Mela not only continued to grow in attendance but it also became a platform for the transmission of many Hindu religious ideas
Allahabad, where the Maha Kumbh Mela commenced last week, is traditionally called Prayag. Literally meaning the confluence of two rivers — Ganga and Yamuna, it was acclaimed as a pilgrimage even in the Ramayan days. The area then was thoroughly forested, providing a perfect setting for hermits to pursue spiritual practices. In Ramayan, there was a mention of a dark-coloured banyan tree on the other bank of Yamuna, which subsequently got identified with the Akshaya Vat, or grove of the Imperishable Banyan Tree ,now inside the fort of Allahabad. The Akshaya Vat was already sacred to the Hindus in the medieval period. Historian Jadunath Sarkar describes how Emperor Jehangir cut it down to the roots and hammered a red hot iron down to its stumps (Shivaji and His Times page:406). But Jehangir was shocked to find it regenerating within a year.
Sarkar employs the allegory to state that the tree of Hinduism was not dead. His protagonist, Shivaji, exemplified its regenerative capacity verily like the tree ofAkshaya Vat...."
[This is a january update posted by this blog in the eGroup]
January 29 Weekly Summaries: January Status Update
[MODERATOR's NOTE: Below is an update from the
invaluable work being done ..... to systematize and present
the discussions from the group....
Right in the beginning of this video, 0.00 to 1.30, he lays it out
--- don't pretend that the differences don't exist; instead, learn to
live with with full acknowledgement of them.."
Poonam posts:
"...I agree with you. I have noticed & observed that the Indians(& other colored people) do all they can - some times even bending backwards - to mold themselves to fit the dominant white culture's perception & demand of the dominant white culture. These people don't require the same of the whites when they move to the colored cultures. When they say dominant, they definitely don't mean the culture of the majority of the people & the natives..."
Ram asks:
"...."Would I be pleased if Jindal, an Indian and
Republican, was elected President of the United States or would I
prefer that given his political ideology and personal values, this
Indian is never elected as President of the United States?" This begs
the further questions: "What/who is an Indian and is there such a thing
as a typical "Indian political ideology and personal values"?..."
Prashant asks:
"Could someone elaborate more upon the "passing" reference? I'm not sure I understand the context."
Moderator's comment:
"...read Rajiv's latest HuffPost blog that started it
all. The reference is from the last paragraph. ] ..."
on debate with Mark Tully Mark Tully displays a frankness and honesty missing in many Indian
secularists. It was an enriching and honest discussion that was
wonderful to watch. While I...
Rajiv response: "Rajiv comment: Actually, I loved the conversation with Mark because it brings out so many ideas in the book right from the mouth of a very explicit member andfollower of the Anglican Church. (He had read the book very closely and we hadheld another private discussion on it prior to this recorded one.)
The important point is that he wants very badly to avoid differences and showsameness (like most Indians and westerners across the spectrum); but because heis so honest and I am so persistent in raising philosophical issues, the end
result is that the three differences listed in my email come out veryexplicitly.
Regarding the Togadia remark, please wait till another video comes up, the onefrom my TV interview with the JNU professor of Political Science. That explainsthe difference between the civilization and the modern politics. One can supportthe former without the latter - as I wish to do." December 14 Venkat shares: "This links provides details on Catholic attempts to get into the
general and cultual media in order to bring Jesus to Hindus
excerpts:
2. Kalabhavan
Fr Abel CMI, a bright start from the Carmelite Missionaries wasprobably the first in India to venture into the ara of cultural mediaand liturgical music. Gradually with a fine blending of the electronicand the rich cultural arts of the Kerala, his Kalabhavan made inroadsinto Kerala's cultual and cinema fields with several of his starsscaling the media industry/
Inspired by Kalabhavan's unprecedented success, a number of othercentres all over India have also taken to cultual an dfolk media toproclaim the Word of God as well as to develop these cultural forms...." December 15
Use of biased frameworks to interpret our texts Following is a paper published in a marginal philosophy journal. Two
things are evident: (1) translations of Mahabharat by Westerners is
used as source and is...
Abstract The Mahabharata, an Indian epic poem, describes a legendary war betweentwo sides of a royal family. The epic's plot involves numerous moral dilemmasthat have intrigued and perplexed scholars of Indian literature. Many of thesedilemmas revolve around a character named Krsna. Krsna is a divine incarnationand a self-proclaimed upholder of dharma, a system of social and religiousduties central to Hindu ethics. Yet, during the war, Krsna repeatedly encourageshis allies to use tactics that violate dharma. In this paper, I try to make
sense of Krsna's actions by analyzing them in terms of categories from Westernmoral philosophy. I show that Krsna seems to embrace an ethical approach calledconsequentialism, but that his version of consequentialism differs from Western
theories of consequentialism by seeing adherence to dharma as an intrinsic good..." Ravi responds: ".....A quick read of this paper shows the usual prejudiced usage of western
frameworks & attempts to fit sanskrit categories into them. This
seems highly reductive, like using Newtonian physics, with it's
linearity, to model the subatomic & astronomical worlds, which are
too non-linear to be captured by this simplistic theories. The author
skirts over the ideas of saamaanya dharma vs vishesha dharma (while
completely ignoring the crucial "apaddharma"), but doesn't do much
justice to the concepts, preferring to stick to "enlightenment"
categories of "consequentialism", "deontological ethics" etc which are
too immature to capture the complexity of the human/divine activities in
ordinary life, let alone the Mahabharata.
Also, though he uses B K Matilal as a reference, he does not engage
any of Matilal's erudite understanding of Dharma here, since that would
undermine the case he is making. If anyone wants more detail on this, I
can email some papers by Matilal's student J Ganeri which discusses the
"moral delimmas in the MB" to some degree of satisfaction missing in
this paper.
As a closing point, here is the excerpt from the "Being Different" book":
The
word 'dharma' has multiple meanings depending on the context in which
it is used. Monier-Williams's A Concise Sanskrit-English Dictionary
lists several, including: conduct, duty, right, justice, virtue,
morality, religion, religious merit, good work according to a right or
rule, etc.54 Many others have been suggested, such as law or 'torah' (in
the Judaic sense), 'logos' (Greek), 'way' (Christian) and even 'tao'
(Chinese). None of these is entirely accurate, and none conveys the full
force of the term in Sanskrit. Dharma has the Sanskrit root dhri, which
means 'that which upholds' or 'that without which nothing can stand' or
'that which maintains the stability and harmony of the universe'.
Dharma encompasses the natural, innate behaviour of things, duty, law,
ethics, virtue, etc. For example, the laws of physics describe current
human understanding of the dharma of physical systems. Every entity in
the cosmos has its particular dharma – from the electron, which has the
dharma to move in a certain manner, to the clouds, galaxies, plants,
insects, and of course, man. Dharma has no equivalent in the Western
lexicon. Colonialists endeavoured to map Indian traditions onto
Christianity so as to be able to locate, categorize, understand and
govern their subjects, yet the notion of dharma has remained elusive..." Koenraad Elst responds: "It's from a decent university, it doesn't claim to be prestigious, just to be professional and *good*. ...And if at all it really were "marginal", so what?
... I remember the Hindu nationalist studentorganization ABVP inviting people like Khushwant Singh, who holds them incontempt but never turns down an opportunity to speak his mind, to belittle hisenemies and to pocket a fat speaking fee. The rest of mankind is bad enough, butnobody outdoes the Hindus in being status-conscious.
Indian Marxists have always known this and built up their own people,deliberately giving them posts and prestige (e.g. having them receive a prize inMoscow and then advertising hiom in India as "internationally acclaimed") andeverything that bedazzles the semi-literate. The next thing would then be thatthe RSS invites him rather than any fellow Hindu because he has prestige, theprestige which their enemies have conferred on him. Instead of building uptheir own pantheon of big names.
>Two things are evident: (1) translations of Mahabharat by Westerners is used assource and is analyzed using Western moral philosophy,<
Unlike the many who treat Western philosophy as universal, this authorexplicitates that his approach is from Western philosophy, implying that theirare legitimate non-Western philosophies too. ...The translation is not the point
here, the same data about Krishna's conduct are just as evident in the populartranslations by Rajagopalachari and RK Narayan." ArjunShakti adds: "That reminds of the time lord bagri had funded a series of talks on Hinduism at SOAS hosted by william dalrymple with Wendy Doniger as the star guest.It waseven advertised on the National Hindu Students forums website." December 15
Interesting response from a self-acknowledged Western U-Turner Rajiv Malhotra: I am keeping the email below anonymous until I get permission from its author. It verifies my U-Turn Theory
in one more example - I have hundreds of similar "confessions" but this
one is from someone who has dealt with it and can articulate it
effectively. This person saw my recent Univ of Delhi video where I
briefly my U-Turn Theory.
BEGIN QUOTE:
Your U-turn
theory is a good one and one that needs to be addressed. I can tell you
what did it for me. Although I never gave up
my Bhakti practices and always identified as a Vaishnava, after about 6
years of living in India something "clicked" inside me that said, "this
local Uttar Pradeshi way of life is not congruent with my inner
conscience". It was of course a gradual development but the point at
which it manifested as concrete rationality in my mind was around the 6
year mark. I have since studied the levels of adjustment that ex-pats
go through and it more or less corresponds. That's beside the point,
what I want to discuss with you are the REASONS WHY I did a U-Turn and
why I think others like me may have as well.
1. It is not philosophical or aesthetic but rather CULTURAL (samskarik).
What do I mean? South Asian Dharmic philosophies and aesthetics
are the most complete that I have ever known. I have absolutely no
issue with them whatsoever. What became hard for me to digest were the
cultural factors in the area of India I was living in (called the "cow
belt" - the State of UP and surrounding areas). I have found these to
be EXTREMELY regressive. This leads me into my next point:
2. Rugged Individualism vs Family Orientation
As an American citizen you are familiar with the point of pride
that many Americans claim: "our culture is built upon the concept of
rugged individualism and personal freedom".
Now, I say that every culture's greatest strength is also its
weakest link. That American "rugged individualism" is the root of our
high divorce rate, our loneliness/depression/high pharmaceutical drug
use of Prozac and other "mood drugs", and the overall lack of family
values that has been on the rise in this country.
However, that same "rugged individualist" spirit is what made me,
an innocent young woman of 23, take off to the other side of the globe
to pursue the Sadhak's way of life. That same individualist spirit gave
me the strength to live in situations there that even Indian women my
own age said they could never do for fear of being alone and without a
family net for support.
However, that same individualist spirit was not appreciated in the
area of India where I lived. In that area Family is God. In
path/pravachan which in Brindaban is often broadcast over loud
speakers. The story of Shravan Kumar, whom I'm assuming you are of
course familiar with, was not uncommon in discourses on Bhakti. Now, as
an American Vaishnava who left her parents home at 18, I was like,
"please tell me what bhakti to parents has to do with bhakti toward
Bhagavan?". And indeed, in the path of Bhakti I follow, the 2 are not
equated, HOWEVER how the plays out in real life is very different and
highly contrasted between the Indian Vaishnavas in our sanga and the
Western ones. The Indian Vaishnavas all lived with their parents or
in-laws, unless they were brahmacharis and sannyasis living in a Math,
while the Western Vaishnavas looked like they had almost nothing to do
with their
parents.
To the Indian bhaktas this appears very strange and to the Western
bhaktas, grown adults living with their parents or in-laws (and hence
being largely controlled by them) looks very strange.
This family-orientation bleeds over into other areas of life.
Forgive me for saying this but I have found that amongst the local
people, even the ones with mulitple or high university degrees, their
outlook on life was not very broad but what I would call
"domesticated". It was rare for me to find anyone in that area that I
felt I could have an intellectually stimulating conversation with.
This leads me into my next point:
3. The "Ideal" of India vs the Reality
I was introduced to the Dharmic School of Bhakti in the West by
people who idolozed, idealized and romanticized India. I was exposed to
incomparably beautiful medieval Bhakti literature that described Braj,
its culture, its aesthetics, etc as the paramount of all Truth, Beauty,
Refinement and Spirituality.
This romanticized ideal of the turiya state of Goloka Braj and
Krishna Lila is what myself and other Western bhaktas superimposed onto
Brindaban U.P. and expected to find there.
Of course you know that is what we do not find there. That state
comes through grace and sadhan-bhajan. I have found that local
Brij-wasis really did not understand to what extent we Westerners
idealized Braj and how much of a disappointment we could experience
after that idealization is not realized in the real, day to day life of
U.P.
At some point I had to separate the superimposition of the ideal
and the reality of Uttar Pradesh. So there is one split in the psyche.
Then again, likewise, I had to separate my cultural samskaras
(American/individualist) from the way of life that is the norm in U.P.,
which is a completely different set of samskaras.
I decided I was no longer going to be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.
My gut feeling is that those who have done a u-turn do not do it
out of malice but there are genuine root samskarik differences in the
way a Westerner will approach Dharmic traditions and the way a South
Asian will.
Let's look at Buddhism and Yoga for example. Western Buddhists and
Yoga practicioners tend to veer "left" politically and socially. Many
are divorced or don't bother to marry at all (but don't refraining from
having kids - LOL). There is no "shame" or "lajja" invovled. Contrast
that with South Asian Buddhists and Hindus.
Moreover, the Western Buddhist and Yogi tend to be invovled in
"going green" and other "progressive" acts of environmental or "global
conscious" activity and consider these things to be "dharma" - while
the South Asian Buddhist/Hindu will see to the well-being of their
FAMILY as their "dharma".
I can't tell you how many new-age-buddha-yoga-type single moms I
meet in the USA who are doing meditations and charity works for poor
children on the other side of the planet while they tend to neglect
their very own kids!
They'd just as soon run off to volunteer in an orphanage while leaving their kids in the custody of their ex-husband.
If it has to be distilled down into one thing - I would say this
emphasis on family at the expense of the individual is a South Asian
thing and the emphasis on the individual at the expense of the family is
a Western thing - and is at the core of the U-turn, whether or not the
U-turners realize that.
.... you and I are on the same page
regarding many topics. I've noticed many Indians cannot articulate
the uniqueness of the Hindu philosophical systems and aesthetics and
therefore in the face of people who can articulate the "uniqueness" of
say Islam or Buddhism or Christiantiy, they come up feeling inferior and
dumbfounded. Hindus need to get clear on the contributions that the Sat
Darshan offered to the world in terms of philosophy and psychology.
The Sat Darshan is at the root of practically everything that I've ever
read.
I gave a presentation on how Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
corresponds to the Yoga-vedantic theory of "kosh"; annamaya kosh,
pranamaya kosh, manamaya kosh, vijnanmaya kosh and anandamaya kosh.
It just amazes me that the world is completely ignorant concerning
the insights of the ancient Dharmic philosophers. There only exposure
to the theories is the much later, watered down versions of Western
theoricists. That has its place too, but the ancient texts and theories
are far richer and wider in scope.
You are doing great work in exposing this in a coherent fashion.
Most people think Hinduism is a hodge-podge, not realizing that there
are distinct philosophical schools with very clear goals (sadhya), goals
that are often different from one another and hence require a different
approach (sadhana), but nonetheless contain certain overlapping elements
that put them under the "Dharmic" category as opposed to say the
Abrahamic category of thought.
END QUOTE
bluecupid wrote: I'm the person who wrote that email to Rajiv. Since that time I completedwatching more of his videos and came to understand that what he thus fardescribed as "U-turn" does not really apply to me in that I have not turned atall away from the Dharmic lineage I am a part of. Moreover, those he sites ashaving done "u-turns" have not lived extensively in India and their contact withIndia was/is extremely limited and confined only to theory. If I am correct,their "u-turns" are in connection with theories/philosophies/religions.
My situation is different. I found myself living in India and practicing myreligion amongst indigenous practicioners who brought their Indian (oftenvillage) cultural conditionings (samskaras) with them into the religion, mixedthem, and passed off their cultural conditionings as part of the religion, andin turn expected foreign (non-Indian) practicioners to adopt those culturalconditionings right alongside practicing the sadhana.
No thankyou!
.... Of course when ex-patting to any country there is a certain level of cultural assimilation that is required, and most non-Indians who ex-pat to India forreligious reasons go above and beyond that level in their desperate attempts to
fit in and be accepted. But there is a point at which "enough is enough" - thatpoint for me is when the surrounding cultural ethos is at odds with my owninternally developed sense of ethics, morality, fairness and commonsense.
Rajiv's response: ... In my UTurn Theory book (forthcoming), I distinguish among 3 types of gurumovements depending on how much demand they place on their western followers.ISKCON is an example that integrates culture/lifestyle with dharma very deeply. Other movements separate culture from dharma, but still preserve the unity ofdharma and you cannot take bits and pieces here and there. Then there is thethird variety I call the buffet or flea market, where you learn some breathing
technique from one place, and another nice story some place else, and try to mixyour own ad hoc cocktail including history-centrism of Judeo-Christianity.
My guess would be that the lady named bluecupid went into the first type ofgroup, and found it too stuffy, so she left it.
I wonder if she is now practicing the second or third kind. If she is consciousand secure as a practitioner of dharma, then it would be difficult to mix thatwith original sin, only one life to live, one incarnation of God as his son,sacrifice and redemption - at least in the version that is standard in the
Church. In this case, she has not uturned from dharma.
On the other hand, if she has gone into the third variety, reintegrating a fewthings she learned from dharma back into her Judeo-Christian identity, then Iwould call it a uturn. bluecupid follows up: "....In short - I reject the idea that in order to practice "dharma" I have to live like a medieval Indian bahu. I am not Indian, I am not living during themedieval era, and I sure as heck ain't nobody's bahu!
I've heard complaints that old colonialist literature referred to Indians as"children". Well, it's now almost 2012 and it seems Indians themselves are morethan happy to keep each other living as children with no help from colonialists.
If I have to give up many of my cultural conditionings in order to practicedharma properly, then Indians do too."
Rajiv's response: "... We got that point in your first post loud and clear. There are clearly some deep scars from the horrific experience you
had in UP, and this is often a cause for rejection. But you seem to haveextrapolated this into a hate for Indians. Were you someone's "bahu" in India?Did they ill-treat you?"
Venkata.. comments: "... There is a huge reservoir of mind and intellect available in Hindu brahmacharis and sannyasis who have high educational background. They arecurrently largely engaged only in reinforcing their learning of the Shastras orin teaching them. It is from this reservoir that some individuals should be
encouraged and persuaded to undertake rigorous academic studies in comparativereligion, philosophy, metaphysics and the like. ..."
bluecupid's response to Venkata..: "Most Indian brahmacharies and sannyasis are mired in an old world mindset. Theymay know how to rattle off Upanishadic slokas by rote memorization, which by theway doesn't take any intellectual nuance or analystical skills, but they areclueless as to the issues in the wider world around them. Their approach toeverything is from their old world....
You can learn the siddhant of their particular school of thought from them, butnot much else. Its a narrow, rigid world. ...
The narrow and rigid world inhabited by these brahmacharies and sannyasisprevents them from truly experiencing the wider world and getting a "pulse" onthe people.
Just see - the natural ally to Hindus in the West are the Yoga and New Agecircles. How many Indians do you see in Western yoga classes or at New Agecenters or a Tantra workshop? Nada. Well, everyone once in a while one or 2,
if the guest speaker is an Indian.
Closed. Rigid. Domesticated."
Kundan responds:
Kundan: I
understand that you are not addressing the issues from the Judeo-Christian perspective
and therefore we will focus on the cultural aspects only, though I must add
that it is increasingly difficult to separate culture from religio-spiritual
roots. It is as difficult to separate the Indian culture and traditions from
its Vedantic-Buddhist roots as it to separate the western culture from its
Judeo-Christian roots. As a multi-pronged approach to analyzing the situation
here, I feel that as we put the culture of UP to scrutiny over here, we also
put your framework of analysis to some critical analysis. No one is free from
his/her culture over here. If the local Bhaktas are not, even you are not. Having
said the above let me take up your other points.
Kundan: I see
scathing judgments on your part on the culture of UP which you qualify in terms
of silly and backward. As a professor of cultural psychology, this is where I
see that your critical analysis of your own framework and your paradigm has not
happened. When your cultural paradigm comes in operation, it does as a
mainstream one, modern one and most civilized one against which everything else
needs to be evaluated. I understand that you went to India
looking for spirituality but how is your paradigm different from the colonial
ones of the British—you are speaking in the same tongue as them? The customs
are silly and UP culture is backward....
India
has a cosmology that is distinct from that of the west. I am not talking about
the spiritual texts of the tradition that you may have studied but did you
spend time in understanding the cosmology of India.
Did you spend time understanding the history of India?
Did you spend time in understanding the colonial impact on India
that happened for about 1000 years? In this short post of yours, it does not
seem so—because the post, in my opinion, is vitriolic. Understanding does not
lead to vitriol but compassion and lack of judgment.
Kundan: I do not
think that you understand the Indian family system—you do not understand the underlying
cosmology of Indian family system, for you have judged but you have not
understood. The Indian family system is based on the cultural value of
interconnectedness, both of which are extensively explained in Vedantic
principles and Buddhist principles. The Buddhists call this as the principle of
“Pratitya samutpada” or “dependent co-origination.” Because things are
interconnected and no entity exists in itself or in isolation, the Indian
family system does not operate on the principle of “rights.” It operates on the
principle of “duties” which we also call as dharma. Since things are
interconnected, traditionally we did not have nuclear families but extended
families. ...
It will be the greatest mistake of an individual to
understand traditional family system from the perspective of “rights.” The
Indian family system operates on the principle of “duties” and “responsibilities”—incidentally
both the terms in the western world have negative connotations. It is in the
proper performance of everyone’s duties or dharma that everyone else’s rights
get accounted for and taken care of. The problems that we see in India
today is because India
has lost touch with its cosmological roots and colonization has a large and
important role to play in such a situation. Because Indian traditions are not
taught in universities, the westernized Indians are as far away as possible
from their roots and rural Indians do not largely understand why they practice
what they practice.
Living in an extended family which is based on the principle
of respect for elders and a sacrificing love for younger ones is not living in
a medieval era. It is practicing a different system of family from the one
practiced in the west. Your linearity of time and social change cannot and should
not become the standard of the evolution or change of my society (this is
colonial and necessarily and essentially violent).
I do not say that everything is hunky dory as far
as women
in UP are concerned but a western brand of feminism cannot and should
not be
the scale on which UP’s society needs to be evaluated whether it is
medieval or
ancient. Western feminism and individualism go hand in hand. You not
only have
a different cosmology but also had a ruthless and egocentric patriarchy,
against which western feminism
rebelled and rightly so. But does India
need a western brand of feminism is a question which we Indians need to
ask and
reflect upon? And as we reflect of the above question, we first need to
take
into account that Indian women have enjoyed great privileges and great
status
in the society in the past. Yes, things changed for the worse for them
in
troubled and colonial times but when we discuss their position in the
society
today, it needs to be in consonance with our dharmic and essential
values. By
aping the west, we will not go far. As Krishna in the
Gita says about individual’s dharma that practicing one’s own swadharma
is much
better that the dharma of others even if it is considered inferior to
that of
someone else, Indian feminism needs to be in consonance with the dharma
or the
essential nature of India
and not of the west, which has its own nature and cosmology and rightful
place in the scheme of civilizations. You have taken your western brand
of feminism and evaluated
the Indian women, and as I said it is essentially colonial and deeply
problematic.
In line of the above, you would also want to
critically
examine the following: “Face it. When you live in India you live in
several
centuries at once.” If one critically examines your sentence in the
above, one
needs to ask: whose centuries are we talking about? The one that have
been
defined by the west? When we talk about ancient, medieval, and modern,
whose
history of progress are we talking about? The answer is that of the
west! It is again colonial and essentially violent to superimpose
on Indian history the history of western progress. For if we really look
at the
situation closely, we had our golden era when the west was encountering
dark
ages.
Westerns are in for a shock in India
not because Gurus have projected India
as such but because of their own romantic projections. They want to find in India
what they find lacking in the west. They conveniently forget what they are
looking for in India
has been plundered, ransacked, and decimated by their forefathers. Instead of
blaming their own ancestry for the state of affairs there, they find it
convenient to blame the victims. As a feminist you must be familiar with this
discourse: blaming the rape victims for the rape that has occurred on them. Many
of the present day westerners looking for peace and salvation in India
end up doing exactly what their forefathers have done: violently hitting at the
culture as they seek the spiritual wealth.
Spiritual progress happens through self-inquiry. In this
short post of yours, I find your gaze projected outwards and not inwards. I
truly hope that you will not get defensive in this dialogue and give a serious
thought to the many things said above.
Kundan:
You are again bringing your cultural standards in the above. The mainstream
American culture is based on individuality and independence. The Indian culture
is based on interconnectedness and relatedness. In order for Indians to be
adults, we do not need to leave home by the time we are 18. We do not need to
separate from everybody else to become adults. Indians become adults by
practicing their dharma towards their grandparents, parents, elders, uncles and
aunts, siblings, children, nieces, and nephews. There is no need to be
judgmental here, for the Indians also can bring their cultural standards and
not have very nice things to say—but that does not take things far in terms of
peace, harmony, and mutual respect. Instead of having one western scale of human
development, we can have many legitimate human development scales...
...In order to practice the dharma, a
better way is to understand the Indian ways from within rather than expect the Indians
to relinquish their cultural ways. Many of us Indians who are living in the
west, who also have a dharmic practice, have spent a long time to understand
the west from within and in doing so we have enlarged our self and our identity.
We have made our being supple and flexible just as the One Self is supple and
flexible to have become the many in the world. Many of us Indians are able to
understand the western ways and Indian ways equally well but let me tell you
that we have also burned the midnight
oil, by the grace of the divine, to have come to such a state. Also, the
process required excruciating self introspection. From a spiritual standpoint,
let me also add that ego hates it to go within and look deeply inside. It more
often than not tries to find fault outside.
.... Your expectations from the sanyasins and brahmacharis are interesting to say
the least. As I have pointed out in the above passages, it is quite clear that
you have not done the work to understand the cosmological underpinnings of traditional
Indian culture but you expect the sanyasins and brahmacharis (who are lodged in
their own world and have not even come out from there) to know all the nuances
of the global and post-modern world. May I ask you what gives you this sense of
entitlement? On a separate but related note, postmodern is most recent for the
west. But all the central tenets of postmodernism has been most beautifully
discussed in India for about thousand years in the philosophy of the various
schools of Mahayana Buddhism, beginning with the one founded by Nagarjuna. The
translation of Buddhist scriptures in the west in the enlightenment era has had
a lot to do with your postmodern movement.
Kundan: I agree
with the above. They need to do a lot of work but also do the people from the
west if they want to go there not as colonial plunderers looking for spiritual
gold but as people who are genuinely interested in creating bridges and a
better world. A better world is not built by imposing one’s standards on others
but by recognizing differences and understanding those differences from within.
The erstwhile colonized nations already know from their experience that the
former paradigm does not work. Having
said the above, I am really looking forward to reading Rajiv ji’s book, “Being
Different” for it feels to me that these are some of the issue that he is
discussing in this book.
... The allies,
in my understanding, need to do a lot of work, particularly when they have such
hatred and judgment as mentioned in the closing remarks."
Ganesh comments:
"For me Bluecupid108 seems to fit Sri Rajiv Malhotra's description of someone who is trying to find some sort of uniformity in the chaos that Indians are absolutely comfortable living in. Again this chaos, as Sri Malhotra said is within the person who is trying to understand a particular culture of India, in this case that of UP. As Malhotra said, a person knows what an open source is but to be in one and gel in it is an all together another ball game. Welcome to the free world called Indian cosmos where all your karma karya no matter which path you (gnana, bhakti, dhyana etc.) eventually forces you to self-introspect on the issues your ego keeps throwing within you from time to time.
Rajiv's response:
This is a very astute observation.
Bluecupid makes some important and valid points. But I feel she fits my description in chapter 4 of the book, titled "Order and Chaos". The fear of chaos runs deep in the western psyche. The chapter quotes surveys by American scholars on what Americans feel about India. The "land of chaos", "teeming masses", "anthills", "foul smells", etc. - these are some of the common ideas and anxieties that are expressed.
The chapter then reverses the gaze to locate this anxiety in the westerner's biblical unconscious (even those who claim to have left it behind) as well as the Aristotelian Law of Excluded Middle.
My talk at YPO Chennai (available at the web site under "videos" explains this point in simple terms.
"
sb asks:
"a. Is the characterization of Indian society as "pre-feminist" totally correct (as if there are no other dimensions) ?
b. Why do we have to swallow as gospel truth that Indian culture, in it's ideal development, will have to travel the curve from "pre-feminist" to "post-modern" in the western sense of the terms, as if there are no alternative models.
If Judeo-Christian paradigm forces one to look at Dharmic traditions in a certain way, so does this author's Western Feminist outlook. I believe the lines between Dharma and cultural samskaras aren't as bold and defining as she says.
In many cases, they are intertwined, the latter often as a support to the former. Her hard distinguishing between them helps her to do the "pick-and-choose" that other U-turners do with regard to more core Dharma issues."
Rajiv's response:
I agree with the above point - this is what I call Western
Universalism, and this is what the book debunks."
Disgusting Bodies, Disgusting Religion: The Biology of Tantra
Thomas B. Ellis, Department of Philosophy and Religion, Appalachian StateUniversity, Boone, NC 28608, USA.
Hard-core Tantric practice is disgusting, a point several scholars make.Scholarly interpretations of Tantric disgustingness, however, tend to follow thelead of Mary Douglas in suggesting that what disgusts is ultimately a reflectionof social–historical concerns with borders and boundaries..."
bluecupid responds: "Indian people: please update yourselves. Most Universities in "the West" veer liberal/anti-judeo christian. Most Western University professors are liberal and suffer from "white guilt" or "liberal guilt" - both politically correct stances in which white liberals are supposed to take on the collective guilt of bygone eras where white people did bad things to non-white people. There is no "missionary agenda here. This man has a post-modern scientific mindset and is most likely either atheist or agnostic.
Christianity is dying in the West. In Western Europe it is on its last leg and will be a complete gonner within a decade.
The Academic and New Age West is more informed by Secularism, Feminism and the Sexual Revolution than it is by "Judeo-Christian values". ....
My suggestion? Update yourselves and stop living in a colonial "Judeo-Christian" obsessed mindset. Join the grown ups table where no topic is off limits."
Rajiv response: In your intense anger towards Indians, you forget several things:
1) The person whose message you are responding to is not an Indian, but Mary, very much a white American.
2) Your assessment of European decline of Christianity does NOT apply to USA. Please do some homework on how Christianity differs in USA from Europe, and why
this is so.
3) Your assessment that the academy is not influenced by Judeo-Christianity buy by liberalism, feminism, postmodernism, is only partially correct. It is ALSO
deeply influenced by Judeo-Christianity. I wonder how familiar you are with the AAR/SBL - and why after a temporary separation it was decided to once again maketheir annual conference coincide given the tight coupling of their members.
4) Uturns are not limited to Judeo-Christianity, as I point out repeatedly. Westerners who have rejected religiosity also tend to retain a distinct sense of American Exceptionalism (e.g. Chris Mathews of MSNBC), and many of them find it hard to accept their own biases - because, after all, their self image is that of the global citizen who is helping the downtrodden non-whites.
5) In this forum you are not dealing with folks in the villages of UP, which you felt was medieval in the 1500s. It might be worth noting that just as you gained a good insight into India having lived there (prior to your rejection of it), so also many of us living in the US have done a very solid study of American culture. Thats what the whole enterprise of "reversing the gaze" is about in this book." Venkata.. responds to bluecupid: You say Christianity is dying in Europe. Could be. But
are you aware that Germany and England are among the countries from where Christian churches of different denominations send the largest volumes of moneyto India, year after year? This is as per government records of declared inflow. Ostensibly it is all for 'charity', for 'poor children' 'down-trodden women' etc etc. But it is common knowledge on the ground in India that a large part of the funds goes actually to conversion programs. This factor does influence the mind of India-based Indians even though they may be living in 'post-modern' world of Western intelligentsia and academics."
Venkat
responds: The West is sexually liberated? Really? I would recommend a few books for your enlightenment:
1) Maines, Rachel P.: The Technology of Orgasm - "Hysteria," the Vibrator, and Women's Sexual Satisfaction. This is an excellent account of how, until as late as 1952 CE, the West did not even understand female orgasm and called it "hysterical paroxysm," and set out to suppress it! In fact, until 1920 CE, "hysteria" was the second most common "disease" in the West and the women were viewed as "troublemakers" to be "pacified" by the physician. Now, the backward Hindus had written the kâmaúâstras at least 2,500 years before that where they explored feminine sexuality. Consider that as an ace served.
2) http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/04/orgasm.aspx : This summarizes recent researches in human sexology which indicate that nearly 70 percent of western women report faking orgasm and one of the reasons is "insecure avoidance" in which a woman fakes orgasm to avoid difficult discussions with her male partner .... Now that does not sound like the absence of "lajja," does it? It seems to me that western women are forced to define themselves according to western male conceptions (stemming from memetically induced male sexual anxieties) leading to insecurities.
Google gives $11M+ to IJM (largest CSR?)"The Washington-based International Justice Mission, a human rights
organization that works globally to rescue victims of slavery and sexual
exploitation, was...
While agreeing in general with the above observation of the author, it
is possible to argue that in one specific instance, Indians did try to
engage and challenge the Westerners using the strategy of purvapaksha. The case in point is Ajnapatra, a short text composed in Marathi in 1715 by Ramchandra Amatya, the prime minister of Shivaji (a
gritty fighter) who had founded a kingdom in the face of combined
opposition of the Mughals and the Portuguese, who were emerging as a
maritime power in India at the time. It is divided into two sections.
The first section comprises the first two chapters giving a brief
narration of the achievements of Shivaji and his sons in building and
preserving the Maratha Empire. The second section comprises seven
chapters in which the Amatya discusses the principles of state policy
and various aspects of administration developed as part Shivaji's
administration.the..."
