Digestion of the Hindu Festival of Onam

The discussion started off with a reaction to the terribly biased NY Times article on Indian politics, then somehow switched toward a familiar theme in the last year or so: 'digestion': what it is, what isn't etc. This is a sufficiently important topic and one that we will continue to highlight. Here, we summarize the digestion of Onam into some secular 'feel good' festival.


October 2013
Protest against New York Times unfair/biased newspaper article
this is the article in question. shocking misrepresentation. Rajiv provided a link to a response to the article in India's arguably most popular media watchdog site 'mediacrooks' that has more than 5 million hits to date. 

 
Rajiv Malhotra: "One good rejoinder against NYT's white supremacist production of Atrocity Literature - http://www.mediacrooks.com/2013/09/imported-garbage-from-new-york-times.html#.Uj2S4z-yk0c


Now we come to the discussion of Onam that was triggered by this post.

Chandra notes: "The Guruvayurappan Temple Web site in Dallas has an announcement for Onam celebration at a local church.


It appears the Church is encouraging these kinds of celebrations and this trend is recent and over the last few years..."

Rajiv's response: " I am glad members here are picking up instances of digestion. 99% of the Hindus who have not read and understood digestion are still joyful when the tiger praises their culture. "I like your looks and aura", the tiger tells the stupid goat/deer, who goes about bragging to his fellow prey, "how lucky that the king of the jungle likes me". When invited to the tiger's dinner table, such a fool is convinced that the tiger has become his friend"

patrika adds: "... there is opposition in these public meetings for the City Council to give these local Hindus the permit to build Hindu places of worship. In many of these meetings, almost always, ordinary local citizens, mostly Caucasian Christians of liberal outlook,have supported our cases in City Council meetings when there was opposition from other sections of society.

I need to stress that these mainstream citizens supported the Hindus for the temple request in their capacity as ordinary citizens, and only rarely, if at all, they came representing their faith.

In our interactions with the outside organization Christian institutions, we will be better served if we keep these in mind and preface our discussions suitably. As Shri Malhotra has repeated stressed, we only seek mutual respect, nothing more, and nothing less either. ..."


Rajiv comment: "I agree. Liberal Americans are polite, and often open minded. We have failed to negotiate our place. It is our own leaders who have lacked the knowledge, courage and articulation to represent us well. That we are getting digested is the result of not knowing what differentiates us in ways which are non-negotiable. It is not that others have denied us the right to be different. Sikhs demand it as do Jews and Muslims. Only Hindus among the major faiths are confused, muddled up - the leaders who have enjoyed prestige and ceremonial pomp over the past few decades are accountable for this confusion because most of them are confused as well. The general public lacks the culture of accountability of leaders. There is too much sucking up to leaders - the blind leading the blind."


Mira: "...I don't think Christianity is tiger at all that can digest The universal truth carrier Sanathan Dharma that stood, Stands and will stand for ever as Drubotara. Nothing can Digest the Mighty truth..."

Rajiv comment: "This is very typical confusion. But I cant go on and on repeating the same arguments on digestion. So I wont bother. The individual needs to become more logical. For example;
- differentiate between truth and truth-claims;
- look at the history of being digested;
- go beyond simplistic slogans.

These are convenient ways to evade the issues: We have devatas on our side so lets not bother. We have eternal dharma which by definition cannot be destroyed, so why all this fuss. (We are morons after all, and hence whats the difference?)  "

Sukumar: "I was told by a friend who has settled in Canada that the local
church allowed them to conduct Sudarshan kriya classes of Sri Sri
Ravishankar in a local church. He said that there are no believers visiting the church and all those including the priest were keen on attending the kriya. How do we distinguish between such efforts and an effort towards 'digestion'?"

Rajiv comment: The same was true of RK Mission in USA until many decades back. Churches sent their members to RKM to learn meditation because demand was high and churches did not teach meditation. But then the churches sent their priests to learn how to teach meditation. In fact, Maharishi's TM movement and other Hindu groups are where they went openly sent to learn. But today, the RKM is empty in north america (except old folks from the past). The RKM leaders will tell you the reason is that now churches are teaching meditation which they learned from RKM. So church members do not need to go to RKM to learn.

Moral 1: Digestion is not usually instant. Like a chess game you must learn to think many moves ahead. Digestion usually comes later in the exchange. Very few Indians have the strategic vision to be able to figure out the long term trend. Most of them look at the immediate situation only.

... That's why I developed the Uturn Theory to explain the DIFFERENT STAGES at work. I have yet to edit and post that video. It makes this point clear.

Moral 2: The persons digesting often do not have bad intentions. You will miss the point if you evaluate based on "they are nice people who mean well" type of reasoning. It is to be seen clinically....

Chandra follows up:
"Onam is clearly a Hindu Festival...see the link on its origins at :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onam

Rather than strengthening the Hindu Roots of Onam and proudly proclaiming its Hindu Identity, We seem to be discussing that other faiths are also celebrating it in Kerala these days. Is it not the very root of the problem, not that other faiths are celebrating it, but Hindus are loosing the ability to Identify it to Hindu Traditions and Heritage."


Surya adds a couple of FAQ:
"1. Are Hindus against others celebrating Hindu festivals?

No, provided Hindu festivals are celebrated as Hindu festivals, with respect for Hindu traditions and beliefs.

Onam is not just a festival. It is a Hindu festival. That is how it should be celebrated.

2. Why are Hindus concerned about Christians celebrating onam?

Three reasons.

(1) Christian history has shown that they took pagan festivals and traditions, stripped them off the original tradition and merely kept the celebratory aspect..

(2) Christians have used inculturation as an instrument to convert. The idea is not to assimilate Christianity into native traditions but make it look alike...

(3) Christians are exclusivists. They do not entertain other religions as valid in their own right. ...there is no legitimate way for them to celebrate Onam as a Hindu festival..."

Rohit asks:

"Recently, I've been noticing the lines "Onam is a secular festival"/"Onam is also a secular festival" getting added/deleted to Onam article on Wikipedia. Can any learned Keralite friends please throw some light on how "secular" is Onam? Has it always been "secular" or is it a more recent phenomenon? A basic google search reveals numerous articles, all of them assert that Onam is a secular festival. If the argument is that since it is a harvest festival and hence secular, then by extension, every harvest festival becomes secular. That way a good amount of festivals go out of the ambit of dharma and join the secular league -- and we know where it goes from there."

 

Karthik adds: "....the idea of Onam being "secular" is invalid here. All festivals will have both laukika aspects in its celebrations (like new clothes, sweets, meeting with friends etc.). But that by itself does not make a festival "secular", if it has "non-secular" elements to it. In the case of Onam, the festival is connected to the Vamana-Mahabali incident from the puranas..."

Ram further notes:

"Mahabali is said to have ruled over Kerala. Onam is celebrated by the
malayalis to welcome their king mahabali who was sent to pathaala loka (
nether world) by Vamana avatar of Mahavishnu,.... Similar attempts to secularise Makar Sankaranthi / Pongal in tamil nadu was carried during last Karunanidhis term where he abruptly shifted the tamil new year nearby to pongal ( jan 14-15 thiruvalluvar day) and english new year instead of the tradition april 14"

 

Indra comments: "Let's not stretch this issue too far lest it should invite ridicule or a complex hue. Festivities of one religion into other(s), even up-to celebratory tone should be welcome to foster good inter-relation amongst communities and a feel-good environment."

Rajiv comment: "Please take time to understand how digestion works. It is a long term process. The export-import of such things results in asymmetric outcomes depending on the relative levels of power, strategic vision and leadership of both sides. These are not "mergers as equals". The side with clarity of self definition (e.g. via Nicene Creed or similar doctrine) has an advantage over the side with confused leaders who preach sameness. The side whose activists are a trained sales force (or army) wipes out the side that has confused activists.."

Yegne adds:

"While it is incorrect to call Onam a secular festival because of its Hindu mythological underpinnings,the adoption of its cultural ,regional aspects is a natural for the inhabitant original converts here and their descendants over centuries.
This is common in many christianized countries of Europe and all countries of South America,Africa,even after full digestion into Christianity;So-called Pagan festivals of yore,frowned upon by the catholic church, continue happily.
I am sure many cosmopolitan-minded Hindus join in Christamas festivities of close friends or even set up the christmas tree in their own houses,without accepting their tenets & canons or any fear of digestion into christian faith.
RM's explanation of digestion by stealth is not relevant here,I would say."

Rajiv comment: Digestion is not necessarily by stealth. Where did I say it was stealth? Christian Yoga, Christian Bharat Natyam, and many other examples are all out in the open. What does stealth have to do with the consequences - i.e. that the digested entity disappears as a self or loses its standing. Once again, you are mixed up on what point is being made.

That European pagans faced similar plight does not mean that we ought to follow suit. European pagans did disappear or at least became marginalized. So their example only proves our concern...." 

Manish notes: "I have received an invitation for Dandiya Raas Nights... and now after reading the discussion about Onam celebrations I realise that this Navaratri celebration in all big cities is a clear example of the digestion of a great spiritual and cultural tradition. Now it does not talk anything about any worship or  Pooja or Arati but instead talks only about  fun and food and rocking the floor. The highlights of the event are no more than Live Orchestra, DJ & Singers, best dancer competition, best dressed male / female etc... "

Koti adds: "I think this is an inevitable outcome. Same thing has happened to Holi, Christmas, Easter, Mardi Gras....even Iftar.
That alone is not evil, ..."

Rajiv comment: "What matters is the lens through which future generations will interpret these symbols, celebrations, festivals, sacred sites, rituals, etc. Future tour guides (trained by pseudo-sec or Abrahamic academies in India) will explain the Hills of Solomon instead of Tirupati; Festival of color instead of holi, festival of light instead of divali, and so forth. Look at the new vocabulary being taught under Christian Yoga and bharat natyam. In the first stages they add this new vocabulary in addition to the old one, so as to not sound suspicious. This can easily be sold to stupid Hindus as "sameness" or as "secularism". Some foolish leader can be cited and some verse quoted out of context... Over time. gradually the old vocabulary fades away, and the new becomes cool and fashionable among the youth and media. This is what digestion is about. IT IS BEYOND THE GRASP OF THOSE WHO CANNOT SEE LONG TERM AND THINK AHEAD IN MULTI-STAGES, AND CAN ONLY SEE WHAT IS IMMEDIATE. By the time such persons can see whats going on it is too late. Sadly most of our leaders are of this sort as the public has not demanded competence."

Please understand digestion!

This is another brief but important discussion on digestion initiated by Rajiv Malhotra in October 2013. Here is the link to the original thread on the forum. The forum has discussed this important issue several times, and you can find those forum discussions summarized via this search. What is remarkable about this particular post are the names named and specific instances of digestion with evidence provided. Question remains and must be asked: what do we as Indians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and Sikhs do about this digestion and appropriation?

"This example is what digestion of advaita into Christianity does"
 Rajiv comments on this particular online article "Dharma in the Christian West" (working link thanks to Bhagwan) that on the surface appears to celebrate Hinduism in the west, but in reality, is yet another example of digestion.

"Most naive Hindus would go about celebrating that this Christian has shown great love for our tradition. It turns out that Father Keating (in the pic)

(link source: http://theinterfaithobserver.org)

is the prime digestor of maharishi Mahesh Yogi's TM and various other Hindu things into what he calls Christian Centering Prayer that has spread into a few hundred centers across. Plans are now to export it into India where it will become a rage among upper strata Anglicied Indians who will feel they are now sophisticated by adopting this American invention.

This is the sort of stuff in the book American Veda that has so many Indians jumping up and down in glee. Ditto with Lisa Miller's article and a hundred other examples.

Please understand digestion!!!"

Maria responds:
"... it is not surprising to meet parishioners in [Episcopal] congregation who attend yoga classes or belong to a Tibetan Buddhist sangha.". Then, neither real epicospalian, nor good yoga practiotioners, nor truely tibetans! Unfortunately, this is the tendency in the west, which is dragging or trying to drag the whole world with them.
.... what I clearly saw is the danger of this tendency....and the evidence of this digestion....so many wolves under the skin of lambs, as they say.... Most of the people are not aware of what they are doing by being so "fusion", but what it is behind this, I feel, is a "fishing of souls" (harvesting, like they say), but I would say fishing because they throw a fish hook, the hook of sameness, and fishes go running for it.

I found it dangerous because this way of presenting the things aims to/ and may attract to:

- hindus/dharmics with no very clear ideas and concepts in their minds: they can be brought to the "sameness" point. And from there to conversion, there is only one step.

- disappointed christians who have ran towards new-age movements looking for traces of sort-of spirituality

It is another threat different from the mainstream christians. But another threat, even more dangerous because of the "common points" that they squeeze to get from a barren land to present it as "see! we also have a profound philosophy!".

What to do? ... what about us, anonymous people, who don´t have any position of influence? "

Rajiv the follows up in a separate thread.
"It is important to be able to understand the celebration of digestion at work in writings such as this article from an influential interfaith journal, and other writings related to it. It praises Father Keating, but Keating has digested Transcendental Meditation into Christian Centering Prayer after he personally and his benedictine monks from Massachusetts learned TM from Maharishi in the 1970s. (I have a tape recording of Keating's speeches thanking Maharishi for teaching something not found in Christianity - thanks to a friend who was present at the time.) Now Keating's movement teaches it as core Christianity and the history of this is traced from a Christian text called "The cloud of unknowing" all the way back to Jesus.

The article then locates that "similar" things to Hindu non-dualism had already existed in certain medieval Christian mystics. But two key points are conveniently missed:

    First, these so-called Christian mystical teachings need a great deal of creativity for connecting the dots to make them non-dual without internal contradictions.

    Second, these obscure mystics were rejected by Christianity at their time and thereafter, and only recently got excavated after Hinduism's influence, and hoisted up as a way to dilute and digest Hinduism.

It then goes on to explain that "Jesus is the exemplar of non-dual consciousness", citing reinterpretations of the Bible to support the claim.

Please note that these are the stages of UTurns: From praise, to various degrees of digestion. This is why J. Krishnamurti has vanished from the scene as his ideas simply got digested. RK Mission in USA is largely consisting of old folks, because their meditation which had made them attractive to westerners some decades back is not digested into church sermons and programs thanks to people like Keating. Tantra is being digested into various forms of psychology and clinical therapy. Yoga become Christian Yoga. Vipassna becomes Mindfulness Meditation trademarked by jon-Kabat Zinn and turned into "Western medical breakthroughs". And so on - this is a very long list.

Here's what my own work has entailed:

The first frontier in the 1990s was to point out the blatant Hinduphobia that was/is in the academy/media. At first our very own Hindu leaders did not understand this or want to understand it, as it was disruptive and inconvenient to them. But under consistent pressure from the Hindu public, now there are many persons protesting against Hinduphobia, and its top advocates face opposition from Hindus unlike before.

The second frontier was sharpened in "Breaking India", namely, that India is being subverted systematically by a combination of forces that see its dharmic foundation as the problem to eliminate. Initially people told me this message was too sensational. I had to settle for a small, unknown publisher. But today it is a best-seller as people have made their own observations and realized that these things are indeed happening right now.

The third frontier was BEING DIFFERENT's message that there is something IRREDUCIBLY DIFFERENT we must recognize and not negotiate away, and that this is the foundation for any identity, education, interfaith work or public posturing.

Now we must tackle the fourth frontier: Here we have large numbers of our "leaders" going around promoting books, speakers, scholars, who praise Hinduism the way the tiger praises the deer he has invited to dinner. If you read the above article, its pro-digestion nuance should be clear though subtly presented. This article is meant to make people like us appreciate that the West has "adopted" the East - much like the pagan symbols, ideas, practices got adopted into Christianity. Full of praise for Hinduism's non-duality but also making clear that it is now becoming part and parcel of the Biblical history centrism."

Ashok asks:
"Am I the only one who gets anxious reading these messages?
Initially, I used to keenly await them and learned a lot. And I continue to do so. However, lately, I open these messages with some anxiety. The feeling of helplessness that one might feel while being swallowed up while paralysed but still conscious.
Is there nobody other than Rajivji fighting this? I'm sure the more learned in this group would know of what is being done to resist this digestion. If so, could we hear about some of that. For example, if there has been a response to this article, I would welcome seeing it..."

Rajiv comment:
"Thanks for your honest concerns. The fact is that most persons who feel they defend Hindu dharma are proud of being digested into the West. I dont want to name members here who invite and support authors and give funds to scholars who are in one of the following categories:
1) A digester
2) Praise other digesters, presenting it as "he loves Hinduism and took it to the West".
3) Understand the problem once I spend time to explain it to them. But WILL NOT FIGHT THE SYSTEM. I must end up doing the best I can to fight against mighty opponents.

Many of them in fact side with the other party in any dispute I might have..."

YB  adds: "RK Mission in USA is largely consisting of old folks, because their meditation which had made them attractive to westerners some decades back is not digested into church sermons and programs thanks to people like Keating." Should it read....."now digested......."

Rajiv comment: yes, thanks.
 

The Chicago Story: How CPWR was Exposed

A controversy was triggered in September 2013, when a group that called itself the 'Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions" (CPWR) decided to withdraw from the event that VHP-America was organizing in Chicago to honor Swami Vivekananda as part of his 150th birthday celebrations. This post summarizes the incident in three parts:

part 1) the discussion this triggered in the forum, the research done by Hindus in finding out who supported the boycott, who CPWR really was, the impact the debate in this forum had on the subsequent trajectory of events post-withdrawal. Particularly shocking is that CPWR turned out to be not what it appears on the surface. Some fact-checking indicated that this organization was incorporated in 1988 and had nothing to do with 1893 World parliament of religions that Vivekananda graced! Stunning how and disturbing why the Hindu representatives signed up for this without doing any background check!

part 2) the positive outcome (resounding win) for Hinduism with its figurehead Hindu representatives resigning, and finally,

part 3) A manifesto for Hindu representation in Interfaith bodies, going forward and being more proactive.

Part-1
The thread was initiated by a post by NS that posted a news article carried by HinduismToday.com, that is summarized below:
"... a respectable interfaith organization the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR) decided to withdraw from the event that VHPA was organizing in Chicago.

VHP (America) is holding event marking 150th birth anniversary of Swami Vivekanda which will feature Baba Ramdev as the chief guest (see here). It is "co-hosted" by many Hindu organizations based in the USA. Air India is also listed as one of the co-host.
120-year old CPWR is the organization that invited Swami Vivekanda to Chicago in1893. In a statement issued today [see here, issued by Mary Nelson, CPWR's Executive Director] CPWR said:

"We honor Swami Vivekananda and that legacy he left creating interfaith cooperation to build a just, peaceful, and sustainable world. Our organization was not informed that an event we were asked to co-sponsor was also co-sponsored by organizations promoting controversial political positions. While we do honor and promote the ideals of Swami Vivekananda, we respectfully withdraw our name from any co-hosting or co-sponsorship of the 'World Without Borders' event and any connection to this event or its other co-sponsors."

....Coalition Against Genocide (CAG) [see here for a list of members--it is mostly comprised of Muslim, leftist and Christian groups] welcomed the move by the CPWR to disassociate itself VHPA's event...

(another post records CAG's cheerleading press release, summarized here)
"

Coalition Against Genocide (CAG - http://coalitionagainstgenocide.org/ ), a broad alliance dedicated to justice and accountability for the Gujarat pogrom of 2002 (sic), and for continued violations of human rights in Gujarat (sigh), today welcomed the resolution adopted by the Board of Trustees of the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR), ....

In a letter to CPWR Executive Director Dr. Mary Nelson, CAG spokesperson Dr. Raja Swamy congratulated the CPWR on advancing the cause of interfaith harmony...."
".....This incident exemplifies attempts by Hindutva organizations to legitimize their virulent politics by appropriating the legacies of important historical personalities such as Swami Vivekananda," said Dr. Raja Swamy, ...."

Prasad's response (the text is a bit garbled in the yahoo forum, but I have provided the gist) was to respectfully  request that two Hindu members associated with CPRW resign their posts in protest:
" Anju Bhargavji and Anant Rambachanji,
whatever be the outcome of your efforts to reinstate cpwr's sponsorship, I request you both resign as directors of this organization. When they cancelled the commitment they made without consulting you, your presence there does not matter, ..."

Arun also had the same opinion:
"... shows that how artbitrarily [CPWR] is run and their decision process is biased and undemocratic. It also shows that how intolerant the leadership of CPWR has become over the years to promote their own agenda and politics. I believe that all board members of CPWR, who were not consulted for this decision should resign..."

Vishal disagreed and favors an alternative approach:
"..Non-cooperation is less ineffective than fighting from within."

Rajiv's response: What "fighting from within?" I dont see them having done that. In fact, in one case I was explicitly told that the person WILL NOT FIGHT to risk sticking her neck out...

To fight from within the representative must first spell out the positions being represented, and the policy for fighting for each of these. Otherwise its not even clear as to WHAT they might fight for, assuming they decide to fight at all?

The only fighting going on is positioning personal careers, prestige, glamor, PR, etc...

Furthermore, there is also the issue of COMPETENCE beyond intentions. Even if the intentions could be turned around, there remains the question whether a given person is cut out for the job. Our community must learn to hold Hindu leaders accountable for performance just like political leaders are hired/fired in elections if they do not perform. Lets end this idolatry based on personalities."

Next, there is a very interesting (but tangential) post by AJ and a response by Rajiv about the forum responding by circulating emails.

A professor (VR) from Bangalore was upset by the actions of CPWR:
"The [CPWR] under the influence of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Hindu leaders has already ditched the ideals of Swami Vivekananda and buried them."

Abhimanyu posts the findings from his investigative work on CPWR. This appears to be the first of a few crucial posts that began to open people's eyes to what this CPWR really is, and we carry this report almost fully. Also important to note, that he also looks at possible links to the 2014 General elections in India.

"1.  Who is the Coalition Against Genocide?  -  this is a notorious nexus of Indian Communists/ Islamists / Christian Missionaries - with a clear mission to demonize Hinduism and Hindus around the world.  People like Raja Swamy are prominent members of FOIL and its sister groups like the Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (the same group that attacked the IDRF and the Hindu Students Council). On this blog, I have written extensively about FOIL and its network, building on Mr. Malhotra's Breaking India as well as some other works out there.

2.  CAG, CSFH, FOIL, IAMC (Indian American Muslim Council) are partners in this...  They were also behind the 2005 campaign to block Narendra Modi's visa to the US.  Angana Chatterjee is one of the key players in this nexus also.

3.  Recently, Raja Swamy, Biju Mathew, Shabnam Hashmi, Ram Puniyani, Harsh Mander, etc. Have started a website against Narendra Modi, called Pheku.in.  This site purports to expose Modi's "lies" and discredit his model of development.  I have recently written about this on my blog as well.  It is interesting to note that this Pheku.in site is registered in Texas, which gives away its interconnections with foreign groups like FOIL that are attempting to "break India".  They also sympathize with and also hold terrorist Ishrat Jahan in high respect.

...

5.  Initially, when the CPWR issued a statement of withdrawal, there were two signatures - one of Mary Nelson, the Exec Director and the other one of Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  Now, if you go to their site, you only see Mary Nelson's signature!  Mr. Mujahid's signature has been "whitened out", but one can clearly see a small black dot of a spot missed by the web artist next to Nelson's signature!  Why did CPWR remove his signature?"

Rajiv comment: Good 'forensic' work. I wonder why our eminent "Hindu representatives" have been sleeping through all this and woke up only after we gave them a jolt?

Karthik adds:
"...the question of "Secularism" has entered the public discourse in a big way. Specifically, it is being suggested that a person who is otherwise suitable to run the country in terms of governance record, should be disqualified on the strength of an alleged lack of commitment to "secularism", which is a threat to the "Idea of India."

I have written a blog post about this here:   As you can see, the post makes reference to many of Rajiv ji's ideas.."
 




Vishal clarifies: "Let me clarify. Resigning from posts does not achieve much. I am not privy to private information on whether these two members will fight it out or not. However, if they resign, if opens the possibility of some rabid leftist (who is Hindu in name only) to replace them and then and work positively against our Dharma in the future..."

Rajiv comment: Let me clarify. Defending incompetence does not help much. It lowers the standard and makes incompetence the new normal. Someone could also say, "let the corrupt, incompetent government in India remain, because if they leave we could get someone worse". Let us stop operating in fear...

The point is that Hindus never appointed these individuals in the first place. Secondly, they have not produced any resistance from our side by way of offering criticism of the organization's positions. Only now they are running around doing PR and press releases because we have exposed this scandal. ...

...There is a prominent man [] who tried to pressure me to not critique Anju Bhargava in my book, but that failed. He even went to Swami Dayananda Saraswati along with Anju and they camped there for a few days asking swamiji to withdraw his invitation for me to speak at the ashram's annual day; but swamiji refused to do so. I am also aware that other organizations have pressure points. Such "networking" notwithstanding, we must be objective and not get influenced by linkages. Otherwise we are no better than the dominant nexuses that operate this way except that they have been winning. We must hold ourselves to an objective standard in evaluating leadership."  

 Rajiv further comments:
"People have asked me to suggest what "our" Hindu representatives on CPWR must go at this point. I feel they ought to write an open letter to CPWR that gets posted widely by them. It should make the following points. I am not suggesting exact language, merely the main points they should cover:

Letter to CPWR:

1. We as practicing Hindus, and as individuals representing the interests of Hinduism in CWPR, are very upset at the decision that was made to boycott Swami  Vivekananda's anniversary celebrations, and we would like that decision reversed immediately.
2. We are troubled that we were never consulted or involved in such a major decision being made, which makes our Hindu community doubt whether we speak for them in this forum at all. It would be unimaginable, hypothetically, for you to make a similar decision against Islam without even bothering to tell in advance and consult the Muslim representatives in your organization.... 
3. It is clear that the process leading to your decision was opaque rather than transparent. Individuals with personal agendas and political pressure acted secretly rather than through a process carried out in an above board manner....
4. We are sending each of the trustees and each member of all committees at CPWR a copy of an important book, titled, "Breaking India", which exposes the kinds of nefarious activities by many persons who acted in making this recent decision. In the interest of transparency and allowing all sides of an issue to be heard, we seek the right to articulate the point of view of many Hindus. After your review of this book, we would like CPWR to host a public debate on the charges and allegations being made in this book - concerning the nexus that is operating to undermine Hinduism. Let both sides speak and debate each other in an amicable manner. This is the true spirit of open intellectual discourse that CPWR claims to represent...

We hope to hear from you very soon on these requests which we feel are fair....In case you find our request unacceptable, then please consider this as our letter of resignation from your organization.

Signed...

.............................

My closing remarks: I would like us to pressure all Hindu representatives to put out such a letter. Let their loyalties become clear. We must get past goody-goody PR behavior. We have had enough nonsense from self serving leaders.


Sheshadri notes:
"...FOIL is dead against Infinity Foundation. I know for a fact how FOIL fanatics try -by hook or crook - to foil university programs sponsored by Infinity Foundation. They are more aware of the power of genius of Hindu Thought than most of our own people. When "Sarve janaH sushi no bhavantu" catches up there can be no room for "workers of the world unite" or "only my god is god" creeds. No wonder we will face in future more virulent as well as subtle forms of opposition. They will leave no stone unturned - literally" 


Abhimanyu uncovers more details:

"Ubaid Shaikh, co-founder of CAG, IAMC (Indian American Muslim Council, formerly known as Indian Muslim Council USA) and founder of Indian Muslim Advocacy Network (Imannet, whose site www.imannet.com, has been "under construction" for who knows how long) is friends with Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  Mujahid is the founder of Muslim Peace Coalition USA, another advocacy group that is very popular in advancing the image of Islam and Peace.  See the two links below:

In the above link, these guys, especially Ubaid, while condemning the attack on thw Wisconsin Gurudwara, nefariously weaves in connection to "hate-filled" Americans and "Hindu Extremists" (READ RSS, VHP, etc.), saying how these Hindus inspire hate amongst Americans!

Check out this second link -

In here, these two orgs squarely blame the Norway killings as being inspired by "Hindu Nationalist Ideology"!"

 

Rajiv shares a response from Anju only briefly summarized here, stating her position:

"I want you to know that both Anant and I have fought really hard and supported VHPA in this matter as you know from the joint statement we sent out. However we are outvoted. There are people who have their own agendas.  Since I found out I have spent most of the time on this. Negative attacks on me which incite people will not help the Hindu cause..."

Rajiv's response:

".... troubling items in your statement.

1) Earlier you had said that this decision by CWPR was made without your knowledge and you and Anant were taken by surprise. Only afterwards you reacted (once the community started pressuring you). Now you saying that you and Anant were outvoted (and hence knew of the decision being considered). Which version is true?
2) Secondly, if there was a vote in CPWR, when was it held ? Who voted for the resolution and who voted against it? Also, who drafted and proposed the resolution for vote? These names must be made public as per the norms of any public foundation. The community must know this, and its YOUR JOB to keep us informed.

3) Thirdly, I disagree with your view that the Hindus you claim to represent should have no right to criticize you regardless of your performance. You did not consult any of us prior to the resolution against Swami Vivekananda's anniversary event being put out as a press release. Now you expect us to support you even though you have not shown competence in representing us. ...Please note that the same pattern occurred in another organization where you represented Hindus for one year. I documented that fiasco in my book, BREAKING INDIA, and it bothered you. ....

4) You write that the "smart and strategic" thing would be for us to focus on those who do such negative things against us. But how can we put our focus on such persons unless and until YOU disclose their names in detail - I mean EVERY ONE OF THEM.

5) You seem only concerned about "negative attacks" on you. You did not say a word about how the conduct of CPWR that you serve has attacked Hinduism, which is larger than any one individual like you or me....

6) Finally, now that you and Anant have acknowledged that CPWR has hoodwinked the Hindus, should you not resign in protest - thereby sending the message that you are not pets sitting there to legitimize their actions in exchange for being given some "importance"? Please consider that such a bold action by you and Anant would boost your standing, because it would show that Hindus cannot be taken for granted as a bunch of morons led by morons. I hope you are now aware (as per Arvind Kumar's post) that Ms. Nelson who runs CPWR is falsely advertising that CPWR was somehow linked to the [1893] Chicago event named the World Parliament of Religions. She has cleverly used the name of the original organization and you did not know this earlier"

Part-2

In another thread, Arvind [mentioned in Rajiv's response above to Anju] posts some startling findings on CPWR that totally exposes their membership, agenda, and modus operandi. We only briefly summarize his post. Read it in its original form to grasp the full impact of what CPWR was up to.

" ...This group was formed only in 1988 (Document from Sec of State office is below).

The attempt to claim the legacy of Vivekananda by a group calling itself the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions is a FALSE PORTRAYAL of the truth. The page on their website purportedly containing the history of the organization contains a timeline that starts in 1893.

....

...had nothing to do with organizing the event in 1893 at which Vivekananda spoke! To learn about the real organizers of the event in 1893, click here and here (original news items from 1893). ..

Mary Nelson is a "progressive" ... For evidence that she belongs to a "progressive" group, click here.

Mary Nelson has also been associated with Rod Blagojevich ... ...If their values are like those of Rod Blagojevich's,

...

  INCORPORATED ONLY IN 1988!!!

CORPORATION FILE DETAIL REPORT

---

Entity Name	COUNCIL FOR A PARLIAMENT OF THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS	File Number	55101108
Status	ACTIVE
Entity Type	CORPORATION	Type of Corp	NOT-FOR-PROFIT
Incorporation Date (Domestic)	05/27/1988	State	ILLINOIS
Agent Name	MARY K NELSON	Agent Change Date	09/26/2012
Agent Street Address	70 EAST LAKE ST #205	President Name & Address
Agent City	CHICAGO	Secretary Name & Address
Agent Zip	60601	Duration Date	PERPETUAL
Annual Report Filing Date	04/15/2013	For Year	2013
Old Corp Name	09/22/1988 - COUNCIL FOR A PARLIAMENT OF WORLD RELIGIONS

Rajiv comment:

" I am glad Arvind brought this to our attention. Does it mean our "Hindu reps" did not do any due diligence all this while - just joined it and started serving its interests? It turns out the woman Ms. Nelson who signed the letter against this weekend's Vivekananda event is the same person who formed this organization 25 years ago. Falsely advertised to be formed in 1893 to promote the spirit of Vivekananda, it was actually formed recently just to capitalize on that event's prestige. Moreover, it is NOT operating in the spirit of Vivekananda. In fact just the opposite by insulting him. Nelson is a Christian, linked to World Council of Churches, various Muslim activists like Eboo Patel among other "religious activists"... It is dangerous to "network" in this field esp if one is lazy and not doing one's homework."

Ravi notes:

"It appears that Rajiv's email (especially point #6) has had its impact. Both Bhargava and Rambachan appear to have resigned from CPWR, per this news report.

Rajiv comment:"Indeed. But let us see this as a positive watershed event where Hindus came together to say "enough, we wont accept bias against us any more from any organization that is claiming to be neutral."

Let us consider this as a loss for CPWR. Not having Hindus represented voids their claim to pluralism. Hinduism is the most pluralistic faith of all major ones, and this absence of Hindus should be positioned as something that discredits them. We must engage such inter faith bodies from a position of strength rather than going as beggars to let us in on their terms and treat us as third class." 

Another post from Rajiv sharing more details.

"This thread seems to have had some impact. I am glad.

Some members here sent it to the Hindus who had got themselves appointed on the Council for a Parliament of World Religions, thereby putting pressure on them. Two of them have issued the following statement a short while back:

Joint statement from Anju Bhargava and Anant Rambachan regarding the Chicago event with CPWR

"We, Anju Bhargava and Anant Rambachan, found out on September 14th, through media reports, that the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR) had withdrawn its participation in a Chicago event "World Without Borders," celebrating the 150th Birth Anniversary of Swami Vivekananda. We were not consulted about this decision. Once we found out, we requested  an explanation for the Parliament's decision.  We have also formally requested the Parliament to reverse its decision to withdraw from co-hosting/co-sponsoring the Chicago event. We are working with Parliament to get this issue resolved harmoniously.".

Rajiv comment: Its a good start for them to take such a stand against CPWR, but this must have teeth in it. If such a boycott by CPWR had happened against an Islamic icon's anniversary celebration, the Muslim representatives would not have been caught off guard...As a group claiming to foster harmony this behavior by CPWR is unacceptable. Certainly, many of us disagree strongly with beliefs of some religious organizations but the CPWR would not reject those organizations' legitimacy just because we found them offensive.

We must keep up the pressure on every Hindu who makes a career out of "representing Hinduism"in various bodies; we must demand that he or she must speak up for us assertively even if that is not in their personal vested interest.

Part-3

Sant comments:

" ...he entire episode at CPWR is a wake-up call for the followers of our Hindu faith. ....

May I suggest that we form a group consisting of individuals from leading Hindu organizations in the US. , We (who will be 'we' here) will need to define the qualifications of the persons to serve in such a group along with all so many other details will need to be worked out. ....One of tasks for this organization would be make recommendations to various Inter-Faith organizations on the individual being considered for serving in a significant role, claiming to represent our community.

I was convinced from the outset that CPWR will not reverse their decision once made. In fact, the overwhelming no-votes shows the enormous challenges we face. This could not have been a one-time issues. Majority of their trusteeship's anti-Hindu feeling had to have been present (and visible) all along. ......" 

Rajiv's Notes after the CPWR victory: The Way Ahead

"In light of the recent victory in the CPWR saga, it is  a time to think how the Hindus should proceed going forward.

There will be many opportunities and offers that various individuals and organizations will have to join such movements. So let us formulate a list of principles that any Hindu representative should adopt openly and publicly as part of his or her participation. For instance, I would propose the following kinds of principles that could be turned into a sort of manifesto that our leaders are asked to accept. This is just off the top of my head thinking and we have to sort these out in more detail:

1) We as Hindu leaders oppose various common positions that are biased and lack authenticity, such as the following examples:

- Aryan Invasion/Migration Theories

- Allegations that Hinduism causes caste abuses, women's abuses, minority abuses, etc. Such allegations must bear the burden of proof and Hindus must be given a chance to fair representation in such due processes. Such claims must be put on par with the facts concerning other religions and Hinduism should not get treated more harshly than other in such evaluations.

- Digestion attempts, sameness positions, mapping of Sanskrit non-translatables, mapping of our categories and framework on to others in ways that compromise our distinctiveness and authenticity.

- Theories that Hinduism did not exist until British influence caused Vivekananda and others to manufacture it. Again, we must be given opportunities to debate such nonsensical positions.

- Inaccurate history of various ideas that actually originated in Indian civilization but are taught as originating elsewhere.

2) Major books, reports and speakers who represent the Hindu position on important matters must be given equal pace on forums as the representatives of other major faiths are. These individuals must not be selected in a way to avoid "controversy", as long as the subject matter being presented is of scholarly merit. Changing minds often requires controversy. In other words, Hinduism should no longer be represented by benign, goody-goody types who wont rock the boat for whatever reason. ...

3) Our representatives must fight instances where a Hindu thinker, guru, political leader, organization, etc. gets targeted without due process and without fair and reasonable proof. This is what happened in this latest saga at CPWR. I have personally faced this bias for 20 years because the Hinduphobic side cannot respond to what I write, and its easy to badmouth me just  to try and muzzle me..."

4) "Breaking India" type of forces must be called out, exposed and we must go on the offensive. Just like some forces xyz torpedoed the Vivekananda event, our reps must be able to do such things to others when we have fair and reasonable grounds. For instance, I see lots of "breaking India" individuals and groups enjoying the limelight with no organized resistance from our Hindu representatives.
... If we take this step we will have matured a lot."

Kaajal responds:

"... I'd like to volunteer to take the lead on coming up with our list of expectations for Hindu leaders..."

Rajiv comment: 

"This is a good idea..

My recommended step 1 is to develop a draft on the core Hinduism positions that any future representative must get educated on and must uphold. My initial input is in the post I did yesterday to start another thread on such a "manifesto". Such a draft needs to be debated and then we can lobby for people to adopt it at least as a starting point." 

 

Bhagavad Gita is NOT the Bible of India

The forum has covered several instances of how digestion occurs, how to withstand it, and what we can learn and apply from BI & BD in preventing a cultural genocide of dharma civilization. Here is another example, where gullible Indians are eager to accept half-baked and even totally erroneous western equivalents for dharmic concepts and constructs. However, on the positive side, the author in question [G. Schweig], readily acknowledges this error. Much credit to him.
 
July 2013

Bhagavat gita: bible of India  
Sreenath posts:
Following is the back cover narration from a book "Bhagavad Gita: The Beloved Lord's Secret Love Song by Graham Schweig". May be we should call The bible as the Bhagavad Gita of Christ's teachings.

"The Bhagavad Gita is often regarded as the Bible of India. With a gripping story and deeply compelling message, it is unquestionably one of the most popular sacred texts of Asia and, along with the Bible and the Qur'an, one of the most important holy scriptures in the world.
Part of an ancient Hindu epic poem, the dialogue of the Bhagavad Gita takes place on a battlefield, where a war for the possession of a North Indian kingdom is about to ensue between two noble families related by blood. The epic's hero, young Prince Arjuna, is torn between his duty as a warrior and his revulsion at the thought of his brothers and cousins killing each other over control of the realm. Frozen by this ethical dilemma, he debates the big questions of life and death with the supreme Hindu deity Krishna, cleverly disguised as his charioteer. By the end of the story, Eastern beliefs about mortality and reincarnation, the vision and practice of yoga, the Indian social order and its responsibilities, family loyalty, spiritual knowledge, and the loftiest pursuits of the human heart are explored in depth. Explaining the very purpose of life and existence, this classic has stood the test of twenty-three centuries. It is presented here in a thoroughly accurate, illuminating, and beautiful translation that is sure to become the standard for our day"

Balakrishnan notes: As [Rajiv Malhotra has pointed out in the book [Being Different]....we have a library and not just a single book unlike Bible/Koran.

Koti agrees with the proposition:
"... Bhagavad-Gita is equated with the New  Testament (Christ's sermon on mount). I think there is nothing wrong with that. In fact BG is our New Testament, even though it fell on deaf ears for all practcal purposes! No Hindu scripture has such a blend of Philosophy and theology. ... But none of them have the scope of BG. BG is what many Hindus swear on the court....

... In fact, it is not at all wrong to say that Krishna is the Jehova, David, Solomon, Jesus, Mohamed, and Martin Luther of SD."

Rajiv disagrees with Koti and explains why:
This is a recipe for digestion.

Using Bible as analogy to define Gita reinforces Bible as the reference point for understanding Gita. Further analogies then follow - people define moksha as salvation, and so forth. The whole mapping of non-translatables into the predator paradigm follows.

Thats why we are where are - because Ram Mohan Roy started the trend 200 years ago to make ourselves look easy to understand in the other's terms of reference. It was his deep inferiority complex.

My new book explains that Vivekananda made a major contribution to reverse this digestion, by re-establishing dharma in our terms. By then the digestion had become very advanced. But what Vivekananda started was only partially completed by him. We must take this further to reclaim our tradition - also called decolonization. My new book is my humble attempt to make a contribution in this direction...  "

Indrani asks:
The issue of using the BG to swear in court - is this not a western concept? Hindus traditionally use Agni. In Trinidad, the indentured Indians used a lotah with water that signified Ganga Jal. We are not a people of the Book as far as I understand.

Sreenath responds to the comments on his post:
"I don't think Bhagavan Krishna would be insulted by this. He only taught us the message that "You can take different paths to reach Him".The apt sentence would have been that "The bible is the Holy book of Christians, The Gita is one of the most revered texts for Hindus. Christians give due respect to Bible and Hindus worship and try to learn the essence of Gita".  .... May be we need to elevate Jesus as one of the many million hindu Gods. We could pray to Him in a Hindu way.May be a concept of "Hindu temple for Jesus Christ" where we have the idol of Jesus christ along with all other Gods like Rama, Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha etc under one single roof. Then that may deter people who are confused about "how to get Moksha" from converting to other religions from Hinduism. Now they will get the same Gods blessings and there by Salvation from here too.

Rajiv disagrees: 
With all dues respects, Sreenath has not read BD to understand that moksha is NOT the same as salvation. hence the promised outcome is different. They are based on DIFFERENT ideas of the original nature of humans -
Original Sin in their case, and originally divine in ours. Please read my blogs on this at Huffpost. Also read: http://hindugoodnews.com/ 

Sreenath forwards a response from the original author:
"... The statement certainly can be reversed, but for the Indian/Hindu audience most appropriately. Of course, the point of my mentioning it this way in my introduction was to give the uninformed Western Christian-based reader a sense of the degree of importance that the Gita generally holds in India, which I'm sure you can appreciate. But you're absolutely right in thinking it was a totally eurocentric statement! "


Rajiv Malhotra provides a more detailed response and context:
"These two texts refer to entirely different paradigms about the nature of ultimate reality, the nature of the human predicament, the nature of ultimate solutions possible, and the paths to follow. It is as stupid as saying that the telescope is the idli of physics. There is no end to stupid things one can make up. It is not an insult to just one text, but to both texts, because in either direction the mapping causes violence.

I am glad my friend G. Schweig acknowledged the error so truthfully. Had it been a typical RISA scholar, the response would have been to attack us as fascists, nationalists, Muslim killers, woman abusers - thereby entirely evading the real issue being raised.

Graham was ONE OF THE FIRST AND VERY FEW scholars to stand up and defend me at the AAR 2012 panel on BD where I was attacked by the Rambachan-Pennington side. He told them in plain language that what I had been saying all these years was valid, and my voice could no longer be ignored by them. He did this with no request from my side. He just sat quietly throughout the event, and during the Q&A raised his hand to make a clear and assertive statement with no mumbo jumbo or ambiguous language. Rare individuals inside the system do this. Most of my supporters inside the religious studies establishment (of which there are many) like to be private in their support, but do not have the combination of integrity-courage to speak up publicly.

I have discussed that AAR event in detail in this egroup. That event got me started on my current project to write a book that critiques the neo-Hinduism camp - something that has not been done by any scholar so systematically. Thats the book I am in the process of finishing up....Thats the same book of which I sent the complete pdf to Jeff Long, who had promised that the sole purpose would be send me his constructive inputs - but instead he started presenting its ideas as his own in the RISA list where I (and almost every one of you) is prevented from responding...."

Sriharsha comments:
This is slave and servant mentality to campare Geeta with Bible or Geeta with Quaran or any other foreign religious scripture. I request you and others to read these throughly and you would think differently and would never put them at the same level.

Rajiv: Agreed. If you watch my Youtube discussion with Mark Tully, you will realize how even the most liberal Christians like him cannot accept mapping in the reverse direction. It is violence in either direction.
[Here's the Mark Tully Video. Among the best ones!]



Maria provides another in-depth response to Koti:
"... New Testament has NOTHING TO DO with the Bhagavad Gita. In fact there is so less relation that is even not enough for making an analogy of it. The only common point is that both are considered sacred scriptures in their respective contexts. That is it.

New Testament tells the story...or history....of Jesus, his life, miracles and teachings. Only moral teachings. Full of do´s and don´t-s. There is no science in it. There is not philosophy in it. At least, not in the way the mainstream christian denominations teach christianity. 

Bhagavad Gita doesn´t tell the life of Shri Krishna. It tells his teachings which are so profound that gives way to many interpretations, at several different levels. There is science in it. There is philosophy in it. There are morals, of course, but not only morals. 

If I am a child I have enough with following the discipline that my parents and my teachers give me. I am totally dependent on them and need them for guiding my every step. When I grow up, I start thinking by myself and taking my own decisions. Then I will start looking for an inner guide. 

Bible contains a set of beliefs that one has to follow without questioning. Fixed ideas. Bhagavad Gita is an inner guide. 

Bible is black and white. Like most of the western mindset: good or bad, yes or not. It moves always between the duality. One can only go from A to B and from B to A and there are not teachings of how to trascend both A and B. No more complexity...and no more inner evolution. 

Bhagavad Gita is plenty of colours and nuances. Much more complexity. And a staircase to evolve step by step. 

New Testament doesn´t respond any philosophical question.Whatever philosophical question that a human being can wonder, finds an answer in the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures. 

If one finds some analogies its because they are important texts of both religions, and I guess that, at least, some common points all religions have. But by emphasizing the analogies above the differences, with the passage of time, the differences become diminished (when they are the crux that makes the religion what it is!). This attitude would bring a universality that, given the circumstances and the predominance of the christianity  (because of their aggressive and imposing ways of spreading), that would conclude in the establishment of christian ideas diluting the differences that define our dharma....which means making dharma disappear.  

I want to go upwards in my evolution, not downwards. That´s why I came from the given religion by birth to the Hinduism. You people who are so lucky of having been born in a wise, vast and rich religion, before comparing, please realise that you are comparing a child with an adult. As simple as that. This is the first time I´m writing it: but yes, after my experience, I can say that the state of the abrahmanic religions is a childhood state. 

I really wished all hindu realised how lucky we are by having the opportunity of being in a dharmic religion. The whole cosmos is comprised in the hindu philosophy!. Let´s protect it by preserving what makes us different!"
The last word in this interesting debate goes to Vijayalakshmi:
" ... attempts are being made by various sections of christians to christianize India by  fraudulently converting gullible Hindus, it is  foolish  of some Hindus to think of placing  Jesus' statue in Hindu temples along with consecrated 'vigrahas'  of our Deities. The idea itself betrays a lack of knowledge of the basic tenets of  Hinduism.. The philosophy of Hinduism is so entirely different from Christianity, one cannot equate the two religions on par. Moreover, it should be understood that the Kurukshetra war in  Mahabharata was not fought for possession of kingdom, but it was a war between Dharma and adharma, and in the end Dharma reigned supreme. The teachings which  Lord Krishna imparted to Arjuna is meant for all of us,that we should be on the side of Dharma always. So Bhagavad Gita will always be relevant." 



 

Did Jeffrey Long 'Out' Rajiv Malhotra's new book before publication?

This post covers a controversy created by the actions of a Western scholar, who appears to have misused a pre-publication draft of the yet-to-be titled new book authored by Rajiv Malhotra, from whom he privately obtained the copy.

Jeffrey Long first showed up in this forum in Feb 2012 (#2270), where he was the subject of some positive feedback re Hinduism. Next, he appears in regards to the DHANAM conference, in November 2012 (#3373), where he was the steering committee member (despite which, there was room for just a single book discussion on BD).

July 2013
Please dont hijack my new book before it comes out
Rajiv Malhotra writes: Earlier this month, I shared with a small number of scholars the full draft of my new book that is a thorough refutation of the thesis of Neo-Hinduism started by Hacker and continued by others like Rambachan.  One of the very few scholars I trusted sharing my draft with is Jeffrey Long, who is a follower of RK Mission and whom I respect. It was done under strict confidentiality. He promised to write me his comments and suggestions, which I am still waiting for. Then I met Jeff at the recent Vedanta Congress, and we went to a private room to discuss his feedback to my draft....

Today, I see the following post written by him in the RISA List (where I am banned as are most scholars who do not "obey" the authority of Western hermeneutics.)

Clearly, Jeff is reflecting our conversation and my book thesis. Sadly, he chose the forum of his peer group to express this idea, while I had shared my book on the hope (and promise) to get useful feedback from him. I wonder why he could not wait for my book to come out first, and LET IT BE THE SOURCE OF THIS NEW DEBATE...

My disappointment is that he replaces all my work with other references, as though my hard work is to be ignored. Had I known this earlier, I would not have shared my draft with him. He was very keen to have my draft, as he said it would help him in his work, but I expected him to refer to it. (People often cite a work with the author's permission and say it is "forthcoming." So the means to do this attribution exists.)

Rajiv adds:
"...I wish to clarify that I do NOT accuse anyone here of plagiarism. However, if my ideas, which have been written and discussed in so much detail, "trigger" similar ideas in another scholar, it would be normal academic practice to cite me as a source. Even if one's ideas are independently derived, one cites others with similar ideas. Jeff certainly goes out of his way to cite academicians in this regard, but ignores me as if I do not exist. This is a double standard. Yet I see him as a friend and hope he will change this approach.

I am being treated like the "native informant" who has no voice, whose ideas "become valid" only when regurgitated by a "credentialed scholar". This asymmetric posture towards the native informants became the subject of so many of my writings over a decade ago. One sulekha article that summarized this was called "The asymmetric dialog of civilizations". There were many more I wrote on
this issue. That started a whole movement which has snowballed in many directions ever since.

The Europeans started this trend to appropriate the knowledge of pandits and publish it as their own. This is how "Sir" William Jones became established as the "discoverer" of Sanskrit in the eyes of the West - like Columbus being called the discoverer of America as though the natives who lived there for 10,000 years had not discovered it. In a massive wall carving in his honor at oxford, he is referred to as the man "who gave the Hindoos their laws".

To declare only those scholars with western credentials (and hence under their system of management) as being valid, is the worst form of colonization. By this criteria, none of our acharyas, gurus, and even the most advanced yogis would be legitimate. So Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Gandhi, Aurobindo, etc. - none of them and others like them qualify as voices of authority in their own right.

... You may disagree with many of Gandhi's positions (as I do myself). But what I found remarkable in his life was his courage to defy the colonial apparatus and set an example of resistance. We need scholars to be satyagrahis in this sense."

thepatrika adds: "....I am once again appalled  -- not surprised -- at the intellectual dishonesty among some of the Academicians in th US, even in fields which does not involve great amount of money. 

No wonder secrecy has become the hall mark of academic research in Science, Technology and Management, which the possibility of making a "killing" with patents, invention disclosures, or membership in national and int'l organizations, or corporate board memberships, even as they brag about academic freedom and "open" environment for enquiry in universities"

Surya wonders: "...I suspect that Jeffrey may already be engaged with other AAR members in dissecting the contents of the book. I would conjecture that Jeffrey will likely not offer any useful feedback to Rajivji but use the early access to direct his own research.

I hope Jeffrey has access to this forum and offers public response."

Shashi comments:
"...This is sad.

This emphasizes why the book "Invading the Sacred" commissioned by Rajivji is a must-read. Specially relevant is Yvette Rosser article. It exposes how RISA folks operate as a cartel. What is particularly sad in this case is betrayal at even person-to-person level trust.

Rajiv's response:
Thanks, Shashi ji.
I want people to know that Shashi drove from out of state just to attend my talk at the Vedanta Congress. He can verify that I spoke on this thesis in my forthcoming book. 

Ashish comments:
"...I am a dalit residing in India. And I am very very impressed by your work. Have read both of your books. Even though I am dalit I still love my country INDIA. India has given me opportunity to rise above the poverty in which I was born. I am a s/w engineer in a multinational firm in India..."

Madhu adds:
"... it is equally true that most westerners do look at us through a lens of superiority even if some manage to hide it, that is just the social conditioning they got via history, culture, church, society. There is nothing racial about this. There is still some time to go before these attitudes change. Until then there is no harm in being pragmatic about it."

Rajiv's response: 
"...   It has to do with the ego's mixed up loyalties and projects. I once reprimanded Sarah Caldwell who was simultaneously (1) a practicing Hindu in the academy and
very active in organizing Hinduism related events, and yet (2) more loyal to her academic peers than to dharma, and hence compromising 1 to benefit 2.

There are similar instances I encounter daily among Indian Hindus - conflict between their private domain of Hindu practice and their public domain of career or "reputation" or business interest, etc. "

Rahul thinks:
"... even as the new book is launched with an attempt to steal the limelight with an attitude that might go like "RM is treading a path that has already been examined critiqued  and debunked". They are likely going to launch a propaganda war with a head start having had time to read the transcript and formulate the approach to attack the new book (or RM)." 

Karigar provides additional context on Jeffrey Long:
"... I've had some personal interaction with him in the past. He's definitely a very nice guy, but -

I've no hesitating in completely agreeing with Rajiv's nuanced critique of his actions. Also, during last year's AAR (where a separate Panel featured Being Different) I recall some behind-the-scenes controversy at another panel where Jeff Long was involved. There his semi-public comments were an interesting study in virtually ignoring Rajiv, while off handedly (back handedly?) agreeing that the points made were serious enough to warrant a high level discussion/response.

I'd like to add just one point to what Rajiv has already said. It seems that he is a symptom of the Social Sciences scholar mentality, where one gets one's authority/credibility by subjective means, mostly by how "impressive" one sound/writes, etc. This just won't fly in the hard-sciences, technology or business, as one's capability can be very easily evaluated. 

For a religion scholar, to stay above the glass ceiling (& be called a scholar) it appears one has to ignore non-academia people's work as long as one can afford to get away with it. Jeff Long seems to be following this standard-operating-procedure. Of course it doesn't say much for his personal behavior & sense of judgement, when he does this to Rajiv.

Firstly, Rajiv has pretty much broken thru this 'glass ceiling' a long time ago; and secondly, he seems to be using private discussion material from Rajiv's work to preempt it's impact when it's published, even if he claims it was not intentional."

Jeffrey Long is welcome to respond at the 'Being Different Forum'.


Update: October 19
Jeffrey Long responded in the comments section below, as well as the forum (link here) defending his position, and Rajiv provided a counter response. After some followups, this thread was closed. I've summarized the final comments of Rajiv Malhotra below (emphasis mine):
"... I had made a remark on Jeff's writing many weeks ago, and he exercised his right to respond, and this started a brief back and forth discussion. I am glad he and I have agreed to cooperate as friends sharing our passions as Hindus. It is good when such episodes lead to solidarity and clarity going forward. So no point in further discussion as the [matter] is happily resolved. I look forward to Jeff's participation on this forum."