The Chicago Story: How CPWR was Exposed

A controversy was triggered in September 2013, when a group that called itself the 'Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions" (CPWR) decided to withdraw from the event that VHP-America was organizing in Chicago to honor Swami Vivekananda as part of his 150th birthday celebrations. This post summarizes the incident in three parts:

part 1) the discussion this triggered in the forum, the research done by Hindus in finding out who supported the boycott, who CPWR really was, the impact the debate in this forum had on the subsequent trajectory of events post-withdrawal. Particularly shocking is that CPWR turned out to be not what it appears on the surface. Some fact-checking indicated that this organization was incorporated in 1988 and had nothing to do with 1893 World parliament of religions that Vivekananda graced! Stunning how and disturbing why the Hindu representatives signed up for this without doing any background check!

part 2) the positive outcome (resounding win) for Hinduism with its figurehead Hindu representatives resigning, and finally,

part 3) A manifesto for Hindu representation in Interfaith bodies, going forward and being more proactive.

Part-1
The thread was initiated by a post by NS that posted a news article carried by HinduismToday.com, that is summarized below:
"... a respectable interfaith organization the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR) decided to withdraw from the event that VHPA was organizing in Chicago.

VHP (America) is holding event marking 150th birth anniversary of Swami Vivekanda which will feature Baba Ramdev as the chief guest (see here). It is "co-hosted" by many Hindu organizations based in the USA. Air India is also listed as one of the co-host.
120-year old CPWR is the organization that invited Swami Vivekanda to Chicago in1893. In a statement issued today [see here, issued by Mary Nelson, CPWR's Executive Director] CPWR said:

"We honor Swami Vivekananda and that legacy he left creating interfaith cooperation to build a just, peaceful, and sustainable world. Our organization was not informed that an event we were asked to co-sponsor was also co-sponsored by organizations promoting controversial political positions. While we do honor and promote the ideals of Swami Vivekananda, we respectfully withdraw our name from any co-hosting or co-sponsorship of the 'World Without Borders' event and any connection to this event or its other co-sponsors."

....Coalition Against Genocide (CAG) [see here for a list of members--it is mostly comprised of Muslim, leftist and Christian groups] welcomed the move by the CPWR to disassociate itself VHPA's event...

(another post records CAG's cheerleading press release, summarized here)
"

Coalition Against Genocide (CAG - http://coalitionagainstgenocide.org/ ), a broad alliance dedicated to justice and accountability for the Gujarat pogrom of 2002 (sic), and for continued violations of human rights in Gujarat (sigh), today welcomed the resolution adopted by the Board of Trustees of the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR), ....

In a letter to CPWR Executive Director Dr. Mary Nelson, CAG spokesperson Dr. Raja Swamy congratulated the CPWR on advancing the cause of interfaith harmony...."
".....This incident exemplifies attempts by Hindutva organizations to legitimize their virulent politics by appropriating the legacies of important historical personalities such as Swami Vivekananda," said Dr. Raja Swamy, ...."

Prasad's response (the text is a bit garbled in the yahoo forum, but I have provided the gist) was to respectfully  request that two Hindu members associated with CPRW resign their posts in protest:
" Anju Bhargavji and Anant Rambachanji,
whatever be the outcome of your efforts to reinstate cpwr's sponsorship, I request you both resign as directors of this organization. When they cancelled the commitment they made without consulting you, your presence there does not matter, ..."

Arun also had the same opinion:
"... shows that how artbitrarily [CPWR] is run and their decision process is biased and undemocratic. It also shows that how intolerant the leadership of CPWR has become over the years to promote their own agenda and politics. I believe that all board members of CPWR, who were not consulted for this decision should resign..."

Vishal disagreed and favors an alternative approach:
"..Non-cooperation is less ineffective than fighting from within."

Rajiv's response: What "fighting from within?" I dont see them having done that. In fact, in one case I was explicitly told that the person WILL NOT FIGHT to risk sticking her neck out...

To fight from within the representative must first spell out the positions being represented, and the policy for fighting for each of these. Otherwise its not even clear as to WHAT they might fight for, assuming they decide to fight at all?

The only fighting going on is positioning personal careers, prestige, glamor, PR, etc...

Furthermore, there is also the issue of COMPETENCE beyond intentions. Even if the intentions could be turned around, there remains the question whether a given person is cut out for the job. Our community must learn to hold Hindu leaders accountable for performance just like political leaders are hired/fired in elections if they do not perform. Lets end this idolatry based on personalities."

Next, there is a very interesting (but tangential) post by AJ and a response by Rajiv about the forum responding by circulating emails.

A professor (VR) from Bangalore was upset by the actions of CPWR:
"The [CPWR] under the influence of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists and anti-Hindu leaders has already ditched the ideals of Swami Vivekananda and buried them."

Abhimanyu posts the findings from his investigative work on CPWR. This appears to be the first of a few crucial posts that began to open people's eyes to what this CPWR really is, and we carry this report almost fully. Also important to note, that he also looks at possible links to the 2014 General elections in India.

"1.  Who is the Coalition Against Genocide?  -  this is a notorious nexus of Indian Communists/ Islamists / Christian Missionaries - with a clear mission to demonize Hinduism and Hindus around the world.  People like Raja Swamy are prominent members of FOIL and its sister groups like the Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (the same group that attacked the IDRF and the Hindu Students Council). On this blog, I have written extensively about FOIL and its network, building on Mr. Malhotra's Breaking India as well as some other works out there.

2.  CAG, CSFH, FOIL, IAMC (Indian American Muslim Council) are partners in this...  They were also behind the 2005 campaign to block Narendra Modi's visa to the US.  Angana Chatterjee is one of the key players in this nexus also.

3.  Recently, Raja Swamy, Biju Mathew, Shabnam Hashmi, Ram Puniyani, Harsh Mander, etc. Have started a website against Narendra Modi, called Pheku.in.  This site purports to expose Modi's "lies" and discredit his model of development.  I have recently written about this on my blog as well.  It is interesting to note that this Pheku.in site is registered in Texas, which gives away its interconnections with foreign groups like FOIL that are attempting to "break India".  They also sympathize with and also hold terrorist Ishrat Jahan in high respect.

...

5.  Initially, when the CPWR issued a statement of withdrawal, there were two signatures - one of Mary Nelson, the Exec Director and the other one of Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  Now, if you go to their site, you only see Mary Nelson's signature!  Mr. Mujahid's signature has been "whitened out", but one can clearly see a small black dot of a spot missed by the web artist next to Nelson's signature!  Why did CPWR remove his signature?"

Rajiv comment: Good 'forensic' work. I wonder why our eminent "Hindu representatives" have been sleeping through all this and woke up only after we gave them a jolt?

Karthik adds:
"...the question of "Secularism" has entered the public discourse in a big way. Specifically, it is being suggested that a person who is otherwise suitable to run the country in terms of governance record, should be disqualified on the strength of an alleged lack of commitment to "secularism", which is a threat to the "Idea of India."

I have written a blog post about this here:   As you can see, the post makes reference to many of Rajiv ji's ideas.."
 




Vishal clarifies: "Let me clarify. Resigning from posts does not achieve much. I am not privy to private information on whether these two members will fight it out or not. However, if they resign, if opens the possibility of some rabid leftist (who is Hindu in name only) to replace them and then and work positively against our Dharma in the future..."

Rajiv comment: Let me clarify. Defending incompetence does not help much. It lowers the standard and makes incompetence the new normal. Someone could also say, "let the corrupt, incompetent government in India remain, because if they leave we could get someone worse". Let us stop operating in fear...

The point is that Hindus never appointed these individuals in the first place. Secondly, they have not produced any resistance from our side by way of offering criticism of the organization's positions. Only now they are running around doing PR and press releases because we have exposed this scandal. ...

...There is a prominent man [] who tried to pressure me to not critique Anju Bhargava in my book, but that failed. He even went to Swami Dayananda Saraswati along with Anju and they camped there for a few days asking swamiji to withdraw his invitation for me to speak at the ashram's annual day; but swamiji refused to do so. I am also aware that other organizations have pressure points. Such "networking" notwithstanding, we must be objective and not get influenced by linkages. Otherwise we are no better than the dominant nexuses that operate this way except that they have been winning. We must hold ourselves to an objective standard in evaluating leadership."  

 Rajiv further comments:
"People have asked me to suggest what "our" Hindu representatives on CPWR must go at this point. I feel they ought to write an open letter to CPWR that gets posted widely by them. It should make the following points. I am not suggesting exact language, merely the main points they should cover:

Letter to CPWR:

1. We as practicing Hindus, and as individuals representing the interests of Hinduism in CWPR, are very upset at the decision that was made to boycott Swami  Vivekananda's anniversary celebrations, and we would like that decision reversed immediately.
2. We are troubled that we were never consulted or involved in such a major decision being made, which makes our Hindu community doubt whether we speak for them in this forum at all. It would be unimaginable, hypothetically, for you to make a similar decision against Islam without even bothering to tell in advance and consult the Muslim representatives in your organization.... 
3. It is clear that the process leading to your decision was opaque rather than transparent. Individuals with personal agendas and political pressure acted secretly rather than through a process carried out in an above board manner....
4. We are sending each of the trustees and each member of all committees at CPWR a copy of an important book, titled, "Breaking India", which exposes the kinds of nefarious activities by many persons who acted in making this recent decision. In the interest of transparency and allowing all sides of an issue to be heard, we seek the right to articulate the point of view of many Hindus. After your review of this book, we would like CPWR to host a public debate on the charges and allegations being made in this book - concerning the nexus that is operating to undermine Hinduism. Let both sides speak and debate each other in an amicable manner. This is the true spirit of open intellectual discourse that CPWR claims to represent...

We hope to hear from you very soon on these requests which we feel are fair....In case you find our request unacceptable, then please consider this as our letter of resignation from your organization.

Signed...

.............................

My closing remarks: I would like us to pressure all Hindu representatives to put out such a letter. Let their loyalties become clear. We must get past goody-goody PR behavior. We have had enough nonsense from self serving leaders.


Sheshadri notes:
"...FOIL is dead against Infinity Foundation. I know for a fact how FOIL fanatics try -by hook or crook - to foil university programs sponsored by Infinity Foundation. They are more aware of the power of genius of Hindu Thought than most of our own people. When "Sarve janaH sushi no bhavantu" catches up there can be no room for "workers of the world unite" or "only my god is god" creeds. No wonder we will face in future more virulent as well as subtle forms of opposition. They will leave no stone unturned - literally" 


Abhimanyu uncovers more details:

"Ubaid Shaikh, co-founder of CAG, IAMC (Indian American Muslim Council, formerly known as Indian Muslim Council USA) and founder of Indian Muslim Advocacy Network (Imannet, whose site www.imannet.com, has been "under construction" for who knows how long) is friends with Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, the Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  Mujahid is the founder of Muslim Peace Coalition USA, another advocacy group that is very popular in advancing the image of Islam and Peace.  See the two links below:

In the above link, these guys, especially Ubaid, while condemning the attack on thw Wisconsin Gurudwara, nefariously weaves in connection to "hate-filled" Americans and "Hindu Extremists" (READ RSS, VHP, etc.), saying how these Hindus inspire hate amongst Americans!

Check out this second link -

In here, these two orgs squarely blame the Norway killings as being inspired by "Hindu Nationalist Ideology"!"

 

Rajiv shares a response from Anju only briefly summarized here, stating her position:

"I want you to know that both Anant and I have fought really hard and supported VHPA in this matter as you know from the joint statement we sent out. However we are outvoted. There are people who have their own agendas.  Since I found out I have spent most of the time on this. Negative attacks on me which incite people will not help the Hindu cause..."

Rajiv's response:

".... troubling items in your statement.

1) Earlier you had said that this decision by CWPR was made without your knowledge and you and Anant were taken by surprise. Only afterwards you reacted (once the community started pressuring you). Now you saying that you and Anant were outvoted (and hence knew of the decision being considered). Which version is true?
2) Secondly, if there was a vote in CPWR, when was it held ? Who voted for the resolution and who voted against it? Also, who drafted and proposed the resolution for vote? These names must be made public as per the norms of any public foundation. The community must know this, and its YOUR JOB to keep us informed.

3) Thirdly, I disagree with your view that the Hindus you claim to represent should have no right to criticize you regardless of your performance. You did not consult any of us prior to the resolution against Swami Vivekananda's anniversary event being put out as a press release. Now you expect us to support you even though you have not shown competence in representing us. ...Please note that the same pattern occurred in another organization where you represented Hindus for one year. I documented that fiasco in my book, BREAKING INDIA, and it bothered you. ....

4) You write that the "smart and strategic" thing would be for us to focus on those who do such negative things against us. But how can we put our focus on such persons unless and until YOU disclose their names in detail - I mean EVERY ONE OF THEM.

5) You seem only concerned about "negative attacks" on you. You did not say a word about how the conduct of CPWR that you serve has attacked Hinduism, which is larger than any one individual like you or me....

6) Finally, now that you and Anant have acknowledged that CPWR has hoodwinked the Hindus, should you not resign in protest - thereby sending the message that you are not pets sitting there to legitimize their actions in exchange for being given some "importance"? Please consider that such a bold action by you and Anant would boost your standing, because it would show that Hindus cannot be taken for granted as a bunch of morons led by morons. I hope you are now aware (as per Arvind Kumar's post) that Ms. Nelson who runs CPWR is falsely advertising that CPWR was somehow linked to the [1893] Chicago event named the World Parliament of Religions. She has cleverly used the name of the original organization and you did not know this earlier"

Part-2

In another thread, Arvind [mentioned in Rajiv's response above to Anju] posts some startling findings on CPWR that totally exposes their membership, agenda, and modus operandi. We only briefly summarize his post. Read it in its original form to grasp the full impact of what CPWR was up to.

" ...This group was formed only in 1988 (Document from Sec of State office is below).

The attempt to claim the legacy of Vivekananda by a group calling itself the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions is a FALSE PORTRAYAL of the truth. The page on their website purportedly containing the history of the organization contains a timeline that starts in 1893.

....

...had nothing to do with organizing the event in 1893 at which Vivekananda spoke! To learn about the real organizers of the event in 1893, click here and here (original news items from 1893). ..

Mary Nelson is a "progressive" ... For evidence that she belongs to a "progressive" group, click here.

Mary Nelson has also been associated with Rod Blagojevich ... ...If their values are like those of Rod Blagojevich's,

...

  INCORPORATED ONLY IN 1988!!!

CORPORATION FILE DETAIL REPORT

---

Entity Name	COUNCIL FOR A PARLIAMENT OF THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS	File Number	55101108
Status	ACTIVE
Entity Type	CORPORATION	Type of Corp	NOT-FOR-PROFIT
Incorporation Date (Domestic)	05/27/1988	State	ILLINOIS
Agent Name	MARY K NELSON	Agent Change Date	09/26/2012
Agent Street Address	70 EAST LAKE ST #205	President Name & Address
Agent City	CHICAGO	Secretary Name & Address
Agent Zip	60601	Duration Date	PERPETUAL
Annual Report Filing Date	04/15/2013	For Year	2013
Old Corp Name	09/22/1988 - COUNCIL FOR A PARLIAMENT OF WORLD RELIGIONS

Rajiv comment:

" I am glad Arvind brought this to our attention. Does it mean our "Hindu reps" did not do any due diligence all this while - just joined it and started serving its interests? It turns out the woman Ms. Nelson who signed the letter against this weekend's Vivekananda event is the same person who formed this organization 25 years ago. Falsely advertised to be formed in 1893 to promote the spirit of Vivekananda, it was actually formed recently just to capitalize on that event's prestige. Moreover, it is NOT operating in the spirit of Vivekananda. In fact just the opposite by insulting him. Nelson is a Christian, linked to World Council of Churches, various Muslim activists like Eboo Patel among other "religious activists"... It is dangerous to "network" in this field esp if one is lazy and not doing one's homework."

Ravi notes:

"It appears that Rajiv's email (especially point #6) has had its impact. Both Bhargava and Rambachan appear to have resigned from CPWR, per this news report.

Rajiv comment:"Indeed. But let us see this as a positive watershed event where Hindus came together to say "enough, we wont accept bias against us any more from any organization that is claiming to be neutral."

Let us consider this as a loss for CPWR. Not having Hindus represented voids their claim to pluralism. Hinduism is the most pluralistic faith of all major ones, and this absence of Hindus should be positioned as something that discredits them. We must engage such inter faith bodies from a position of strength rather than going as beggars to let us in on their terms and treat us as third class." 

Another post from Rajiv sharing more details.

"This thread seems to have had some impact. I am glad.

Some members here sent it to the Hindus who had got themselves appointed on the Council for a Parliament of World Religions, thereby putting pressure on them. Two of them have issued the following statement a short while back:

Joint statement from Anju Bhargava and Anant Rambachan regarding the Chicago event with CPWR

"We, Anju Bhargava and Anant Rambachan, found out on September 14th, through media reports, that the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR) had withdrawn its participation in a Chicago event "World Without Borders," celebrating the 150th Birth Anniversary of Swami Vivekananda. We were not consulted about this decision. Once we found out, we requested  an explanation for the Parliament's decision.  We have also formally requested the Parliament to reverse its decision to withdraw from co-hosting/co-sponsoring the Chicago event. We are working with Parliament to get this issue resolved harmoniously.".

Rajiv comment: Its a good start for them to take such a stand against CPWR, but this must have teeth in it. If such a boycott by CPWR had happened against an Islamic icon's anniversary celebration, the Muslim representatives would not have been caught off guard...As a group claiming to foster harmony this behavior by CPWR is unacceptable. Certainly, many of us disagree strongly with beliefs of some religious organizations but the CPWR would not reject those organizations' legitimacy just because we found them offensive.

We must keep up the pressure on every Hindu who makes a career out of "representing Hinduism"in various bodies; we must demand that he or she must speak up for us assertively even if that is not in their personal vested interest.

Part-3

Sant comments:

" ...he entire episode at CPWR is a wake-up call for the followers of our Hindu faith. ....

May I suggest that we form a group consisting of individuals from leading Hindu organizations in the US. , We (who will be 'we' here) will need to define the qualifications of the persons to serve in such a group along with all so many other details will need to be worked out. ....One of tasks for this organization would be make recommendations to various Inter-Faith organizations on the individual being considered for serving in a significant role, claiming to represent our community.

I was convinced from the outset that CPWR will not reverse their decision once made. In fact, the overwhelming no-votes shows the enormous challenges we face. This could not have been a one-time issues. Majority of their trusteeship's anti-Hindu feeling had to have been present (and visible) all along. ......" 

Rajiv's Notes after the CPWR victory: The Way Ahead

"In light of the recent victory in the CPWR saga, it is  a time to think how the Hindus should proceed going forward.

There will be many opportunities and offers that various individuals and organizations will have to join such movements. So let us formulate a list of principles that any Hindu representative should adopt openly and publicly as part of his or her participation. For instance, I would propose the following kinds of principles that could be turned into a sort of manifesto that our leaders are asked to accept. This is just off the top of my head thinking and we have to sort these out in more detail:

1) We as Hindu leaders oppose various common positions that are biased and lack authenticity, such as the following examples:

- Aryan Invasion/Migration Theories

- Allegations that Hinduism causes caste abuses, women's abuses, minority abuses, etc. Such allegations must bear the burden of proof and Hindus must be given a chance to fair representation in such due processes. Such claims must be put on par with the facts concerning other religions and Hinduism should not get treated more harshly than other in such evaluations.

- Digestion attempts, sameness positions, mapping of Sanskrit non-translatables, mapping of our categories and framework on to others in ways that compromise our distinctiveness and authenticity.

- Theories that Hinduism did not exist until British influence caused Vivekananda and others to manufacture it. Again, we must be given opportunities to debate such nonsensical positions.

- Inaccurate history of various ideas that actually originated in Indian civilization but are taught as originating elsewhere.

2) Major books, reports and speakers who represent the Hindu position on important matters must be given equal pace on forums as the representatives of other major faiths are. These individuals must not be selected in a way to avoid "controversy", as long as the subject matter being presented is of scholarly merit. Changing minds often requires controversy. In other words, Hinduism should no longer be represented by benign, goody-goody types who wont rock the boat for whatever reason. ...

3) Our representatives must fight instances where a Hindu thinker, guru, political leader, organization, etc. gets targeted without due process and without fair and reasonable proof. This is what happened in this latest saga at CPWR. I have personally faced this bias for 20 years because the Hinduphobic side cannot respond to what I write, and its easy to badmouth me just  to try and muzzle me..."

4) "Breaking India" type of forces must be called out, exposed and we must go on the offensive. Just like some forces xyz torpedoed the Vivekananda event, our reps must be able to do such things to others when we have fair and reasonable grounds. For instance, I see lots of "breaking India" individuals and groups enjoying the limelight with no organized resistance from our Hindu representatives.
... If we take this step we will have matured a lot."

Kaajal responds:

"... I'd like to volunteer to take the lead on coming up with our list of expectations for Hindu leaders..."

Rajiv comment: 

"This is a good idea..

My recommended step 1 is to develop a draft on the core Hinduism positions that any future representative must get educated on and must uphold. My initial input is in the post I did yesterday to start another thread on such a "manifesto". Such a draft needs to be debated and then we can lobby for people to adopt it at least as a starting point." 

 

RMF Summary: Week of December 19 - 25, 2011

December 19

2009 discussion on Kashmir at Harvard - attended by Angana Chatterji In light of the recent dismissal of Angana Chatterji, who Rajiv did highlight in BI, I wanted to look into some of the company she kept. No surprises that...

December 19 How to help/volunteer I am constantly getting advice, offers of help, etc. from well meaning persons. So we have added a tab at the web site to guide those who are serious. Please visit: http://beingdifferentbook.com/volunteer/ By referring people to this tab, I hope to save time repeating the kinds of help we can use and the levels of commitment we would expect to make it worthwhile. Hoping to hear from genuinely committed persons. December 20 Question for Mr. Malhotra on the Strategy for Purva Paksha with Abra Arun asks: This is a question I have for you with regards to the pUrva pakSA you talk about in your videos and of course, in the book Being Different. I was wondering what the long term benefits are for us as Hindus to do pUrvA pakSA with Abrahamics other than becoming knowledgeable in their mindset, philosophies, and framework(s) from which they operate on/in? For example, the necessity to be knowledgeable enough to debate a Christian, Jew, or Muslim requires a certain amount of study of their religions. Is the goal of doing this to "learn the enemy" so to speak? Meaning, are you suggesting that Hindus, although have identified those who are hostile to us and our way of life, become well-versed in the ways of the Abrahamics in order to defeat them at various levels; academically, through debate, scholarship etc.? Rajiv's response: "...1. Western thought has colonized us, including gurus, and so-called leaders of Hinduism in society and politics, education, politics. When you reverse the gaze at the west to understand what the differences are, it can result in de-colonizing us. One becomes self conscious of how one has been colonized without even knowing it. For instance, in chapter 5, understanding the different between secularism and sapeksha-dharma can have a big impact. Refusing to translate dharma as religion, atman as soul, shakti as Holy Spirit, etc. - each of these transformations in an individual can be a watershed event in their lives. We live and think more authentically. 2. Reversing the gaze to identify differences is a methodology to resist being digested. As I said in my TV interview on the last day of my India trip (still waiting for the DVD to arrive), we are either being different or being digested. 3. Once we understand the other on our own terms, we are less in awe of them. Mimicry can stop. This is required to become a great civilization on the world stage as many Indians aspire. You cannot be a great civilization merely with material progress and remaining confused/misinformed about one's sense of selfhood. 4. Gurus who specialize in teaching westerners will benefit from purva paksha because it will inform them of the pre-conditioning such westerners bring. This preconditioning (such as history-centrism) must be addressed explicitly or else there will be uturns and nasty outcomes as we often see." bluecupid comments: "There is the type of Westerner who takes to Eastern Dharmic Traditions in one form or another, NOT influenced by "Judeo-Christian values" but influenced by: 1. Liberalism 2. Secularism 3. Feminism 4. The Sexual Revolution" Rajiv's response:  ... I have more research on these types than on Christians because American liberals lack the self consciousness of being biased, whereas the radical Christian is quite blatant about it. Kindly read my earlier book "Breaking India" for numerous examples of how the American liberal/left is undermining Indian civilization and its sense of unity. In the above category of liberals (that you advocate) are: Martha Nussbaum, Lisa McLean, Angana Chaterjee, Sugata Bose and his girlfriend Ayesha Jalal, and hundreds of others. Every US university has them in South Asian studies, English, religious studies, history, etc. I run into them at the South Asian Conferences at Berkeley and Madison where over 500 papers are presented by such folks annually... I have many writings in the pipeline on such folks. Ken Wilber being a big shot among them. Wilber is super UTurn hero, as are Joseph Campbell, Eliade, and a host of other "liberals". Western liberalism is the deceptive version of chauvinism - after you scratch the surface, as happened in your case with little effort, which is what makes you interesting for us. " Chandramouli shares some feedback from another forum: "One more very interesting comment from other forum relating to Tiger Vs Deer: "To put it in Rajiv Mlahotra's terms The Abramhamic Tiger has digested the Egyptian, Greek, Roman and even the Enlightenment deer and thus remains a tiger still, not a deer." Or in Old Testament terms it has put on a multi-colored coat in order to appeal to different fools. Rajiv's response to Chandramouli: Has that other forum watched my recent videos, read the book - to get the deeper picture?    Carpentier responds to Rajiv: "Let us not put Eliade or Joseph Campbell on the U-turn boat. Their works consist in highlighting and bringing out the mythical, cosmological aspects of the Western traditional cultures in order to reconnect with the Perennial Philosophy. Everyone must work on the truth from the departure point of his own civilisation by rediscovering its roots and its hidden meaning. Rajiv's response:  Both these characters definitely ARE prominent uturners. I am glad Come expressed his support for them, as I want to provoke puncture this kind of aura of people like Campbell (and many others glorified in "American Veda" type of works). You can add Jung to this list and many other lineages of so-called "western" pioneers who were unfair in hiding their Indian sources in order to be seen as "original" thinkers. In the case of Campbell, people in India praise what they see as his love for Indian spirituality. But he lived many years in Esalen where he facilitated many uturns. Read his book "Baksheesh and Brahman", written after he had finished his mining expedition to appropriate Indian things, and in it the whole tradition is depicted as a form of corruption by brahmins to dupe the masses.... ... The fact that people today dont see these as uturns is precisely what makes that work so important. Such "bridge builders" were biased and served as the stomachs of the digestive system. The whole Perennial Philosophy is merely stage-2 of the uturn." Mrithak asks Rajiv: "I was wondering your view on Rudolph Steiner as my wife is a Waldorf school teacher. Steiner is very sympathetic towards Indian traditions in his works such as " how to know higher worlds" and even has incorparated the Guru-kula model of having the same teacher for all subjects till 8th grade. Interestingly Steiner says that he has a "Guru" but won't reveal the name of his Guru. Rajiv response: Rudolph Steiner is an important uturner. After J. Krishnamurty was selected to head the Theosophists, Steiner quit the movement because he wanted that post. Till then, he had learned a lot from Indian sources, as did most Theosophists. He wrote a fairly ok interpretation of Gita, etc. Steiner then started his own anthropomorphism movement. This was initially a sort of half-way place combining Hinduism and Christianity - the way most uturns begin. As it evolved, it got more and more distant from Hinduism. I would say he was in the same league as Carl Jung - (1) learned from Hinduism; (2) then used it to construct his own hybrid of Christianity and Hinduism; (3) gradually after the founder's death the movement distanced from the Indian sources and became increasingly neo-Christian. .... Today, both these movements are among the "new" and "liberal" thought that is seen as a part of the development of western thought. In other words, they have used dharma to reinvent Christianity. There remain some Indian terminology and many ideas are borrowed as is clear. BUT THEIR LEADERS TODAY DO NOT WANT TO BE TOLD THIS PUBLICLY, OR AT LEAST THEY WILL NOT LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THIS. I approached the Steiner people to get them interested to do a project explicitly on "Indian influences on Rudolph Steiner and his education system." Informally they accept "some influences" but do not want to emphasize this aspect. Similar influences also exist in the case of Montessori and her famous school system. She spent many years in India as a shelter during World War 2, and thats where she wrote some of her important works on education. She had good relations with Gandhi, Ramana Maharshi, and various others. But try asking the headquarters of the Montessori system to celebrate the "Hindu education system's influences". I have been around the block engaging dozens of such groups since the 1990s. In fact the Theosophy folks in Adyar, Tamil Nadu show no interest to celebrate their appropriations of Hindu thought." Kirit comments: "What a revealing yet sad fact to know for a person like me who has held Montessori in high esteem for many reasons including having had owned a Montessori school, and who has studied Jung as a psychotherapist, while being ignorant about direct Hindu influences in their work. ..." Rajiv's response: ... My interest in the appropriation of education per se started when in the 1990s I saw a course at Princeton Univ called "the history of universities". The textbook had zero mention of Nalanda/Taxishala or any other Indian center of learning. It was all about Alexandria, Greece, Europe and the West. I approached the professor and suggested that he include the history of ancient universities in India. His predictable response said things like: "I am unaware of any such Indian universities", "there is no reliable source on this", "we want to stay away from rightwing chauvinistic claims", etc. Luckily, I found in the Princeton library a 3 volume history of Nalanda written by a western scholar, using sources from visiting Chinese and other students who had written of their experiences at Nalanda after returning back to their home countries. Even after I showed this "source" material, the prof was unwilling to include anything about India, giving the excuse that he was "unqualified" to teach such a complex matter without first spending a lot of time to study it for himself. ... then I came across an entirely different and very CONTEMPORARY example of a MAJOR educational movement in the west that (according to official accounts) owes its origins to one man living in Europe (now in his 90s). This methodology of learning has become extremely mainstream and is spreading like wild fire. But the smoking gun came when I happened to meet a western woman by chance at a talk on uturn i was giving in a university. She told me that she had an interesting "example" of uturn to bring to my attention. What transpired was amazing .... What resulted is now a solid chapter on this particular case study, which clearly establishes the Indian origins of something very modern and of relevance today. Meanwhile, a friend's wife teaching at the Princeton Waldorf school (a system started by Steiner using what he regarded as "his own" theory of education) related some incidents that happened in the school. They were teaching many India/Hindu techniques but never acknowledging the source or any links at all with dharma. After I gave her some background and encouraged her to open the subject, she approached the head of school, but was told in direct words that "Hinduism could not be introduced into the curriculum or mentioned as a source" - even though Steiner himself was heavily influenced by dharma. ... one man who claimed to be "bridging" the east-west was a Steinerite. He was some senior official in an organization that researches and promotes Steiner's philosophy called anthropomorphism. He was speaking "on behalf of" hindu/buddhist thought - often these folks who are middlemen in the appropriation serve as proxies representing dharma in ways that are remarkably authentic if the audience is sophisticated. ... From their research output I discovered how very cleverly they were replacing all references to Sanskrit terms, dharmic paradigms, and turning this into "new western thought" by so-called pioneers like Steiner and many others, and/or "old western thought" that could combine Hellenistic (Greek) and Hebraic (Judeo-Christian) thinkers. Indian civ was being digested into the belly of the west. ... So even before coming to Maria Montessori's Indian influences, there is a whole history of how Indian education has become digested into the west. ... a group with centers across USA that has started spreading Sri Aurobindo's philosophy of education after removing Indian sources (or turning them into a small footnote of "minor influence"). .... Just in case you imagine that there is a support base for my work, you are sadly mistaken. 99% of the "support" offered is either a waste of precious time, or else it ends up being someone with self-serving agendas that only make things worse. Our tradition today simply lacks the mechanisms for consistent support for original research that has the potential for being a game changer. Its too much filled with politics, pettiness, short-term "whats in it for me"..." Venkata.. responds to bluecupid: "The word 'liberal' in the US context and perhaps in the European context too, seems to have taken a meaning of its own ...  I have found many of them art Hindu-haters too... It is not clear ( at least to me) why persons in the West influenced by the four thought processes by Bluecupid below, should wish to take to Dharmic traditions. 1. Liberalism 2. Secularism 3. Feminism 4. The Sexual Revolution Perhaps if we go in to this phenomenon deeper we may come tofind why people get disappointed or take a U turn or become uncomfortable in the 'culture' but not in the philosophy of Indian society." Rajiv response: In Uturn I examine the psychological, political and social forces at work on these people. Many of them ran away from something in the west, rather than specifically towards dharma for positive reasons. When the fad appeal wore off they made uturns. But they got transformed by the journey, hence they had a need to digest what they had learnt into their own western framework. Gurus have failed to uproot the western fixations in order to clear the soil of its preconditions, and then plant the new knowledge. Buddhists do this re-conditioning more systematically, hence they have fewer uturns (although they have them as well). The process known as "conversion" is precisely to remove past conditioning and axioms, in order to properly plant new ones. Hindu gurus have been reluctant and even afraid to convert. So the new knowledge gets added without first cleaning the vessel from the old contaminants. This fails to be sustainable when the old/new civilizational assumptions are inherently incompatible as BD shows."  bluecupid responds: "Rajiv and I deal with 2 different sets of "liberals". I'm not mixing it up with Christians or academics. The people I deal with are "liberal minded" non-academic folk who practice yoga or partake in one or many forms of Eastern traditions, often on a surface level but sometimes going deeper. They are nice, open-minded people who are not interested in joining any organized religious cult." Rajiv response:  It is precisely these "nice and open minded" persons I did research on at dozens of yoga centers, meditation centers etc. Yes they are "nice", but within the safe boundaries of their comfort zone as "westerners". This zone assumes a sense of american exceptionalism. Try contesting "western Universalism" - they will continue being "nice" but will not call back even though they will show interest. You have a limited experience of american liberals, and that too untested by provoking the safety net. ...." December 20 Philosophical & Theological difference Reading BD now.  Rajiv  has very beautifully shown the irreconcilable philosophical differences (Original Sin vs 'Amartasya putraha' ,  Salvation through... Rajiv comments on a followup on "Savior" The term "Savior" in Christianity is clearly defined and does NOT apply to Krishna. Savior and Salvation in Christianity are very explicitly defined as means to escape from Original Sin, a condition that does not exist in any dharma philosophy. Koti mistakes Savior/Salvation as any appeal to a Personal Supreme Being, (Krishna in this case). My book clearly explains the personal notion of Supreme Being as an important part of dharma (for those who prefer it). Puja and bhakti ARE forms of sadhana. His post above makes it seem that sadhana excludes bhakti, which is untrue. To discuss bhakti, he brings in "Savior" - a colonized idea the result of translating Krishna = Savior..." December 20 Feed back on BI on a well informed and respected parlimentarian This is the feedback I received from a member of the parliament here to whom I had presented a book a few months back: Dear Karthi I thought I should let you... December 21  Liberalism Bluecupid: By liberal I don't mean any type of political affiliation but simply "liberal minded" or open minded. Rajiv's response:  "... I am NOT limiting myself in my study of americans to the christian or political kind. Bluecupid does not seem to read responses. I INCLUDE those whose "self image" fits the above idea of being liberal. Are you aware of cognitive science studies at Harvard on a new condition they call "implicit bias"? See: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/background/faqs.html They found that liberals whose self definition was that they did not have racial bias were in fact racially biased unconsciously. The technique they developed is to gain insight into your unconscious level. White students in liberal places like Yale had the highest level of white preference. Asians ironically also had white preference but not as much. Blacks did not have white preference. My own technique has been to use "dialogue with provocation" - take the liberals to the foundations of american exceptionalism and start taking that axiom apart one brick at a time. Unless you try this yourself (which requires considerable theoretical study and empirical work) you will not know that such a syndrome even exists." December 22 Re: ISKCON, Rajiv's forum Yogesh: Mr. Malhotra does not separate Christianity and Jewism, he uses the concatenated term Judeo-Christian tradition. Rajiv's response:  Actually I use several terms depending on the specific context: Judaism, Christianity, Judeo-Christianity, Abrahamic religions, Catholicism, Protestantism, etc. Each is distinct and cannot be collapsed into one. Judeo-Christianity is a broad American term (not used in Europe) referring to biblical traditions in general. ... Finally, your use of the term "Jewism" is unfortunate - Jews do not refer to themselves by that term. The right term is Judaism. (Rajiv: The person writing the post below is threatened by my  positions on difference between Hinduism and Christianity. He espouses how Hinduism can be digested into Christianity by mapping every aspect of into some Christian substitute. That this mindset is a major movement in India and in USA ... I have color coded his words as follows: Yellow highlight where he tries to map digest (map) Hinduism into Christian doctrine; Blue highlight where he makes general assumptions of sameness without basis or substantiation (a common approach of most modern Hindus and Indians in general); and Green highlight where he insinuates that I am unqualified without having done his homework on me. December 23 My response to a Christian wanting to DIGEST Hinduism into Christian Vishwamitr wrote: ... There are organisations and institutions which are making effort to make this world a Vasudeva Kutumbam. OneSource of all creation. It all would begin with the hypothesis one starts with.  If you have seen the works of Dr. Zakir Naik his study starts with the point of view of finding the union or similarity in all religions be it Hinduism, Islam or Christianity.  There are various organisations and institutions in the Christian community too who are workingtowards finding the unison of all. Our point of view is various and we cannot get the complete picture of the centre point because we are limited resources to perceive the unlimited....   What is the theological authority of Mr. Mark Tully or that matter Mr. Rajiv Malhotra in-terms of Hindu Philosophical study or Christian Study.  Have they invested time and energy to study, Comparative religion under and expert guidance under both the schools of thought.  Then only do they become an authority. And an intelligent wise man will always use his expertise to build a bridge. The Visnu concept is referred to Holy Spirit and not to Shakthi.  The Bible starts with a verse saying the: The Spirit of The Lord was floating on the waters before creation.  It is identical to the Maha Vishnu depiction before creation/present Sri. RAnganathaform. And so on.  In Bangalore, Dharmaram College and Ashram in Mysore are doing deep study apart from various organisation to build a bridge to find that ONE SOURCE of all creation who has spread its loving arms through various philosophical thoughts.  In any sampradaya of Hinduism of Vaishnavism or Shaktam or Shivaism the Almighty is approached in that form. And there cannot be 2 Sources of this whole creation. The Almighty of the Hinduism or Christian or Islam or whatever path one choose cannot be two.  Here the SEARCH is THE TRUTH : ONE SOURCE of WHOLE COSMOS and how we can get people together : call it Sri. RAma Rajyam or Your Kingdom come on Earth as in Heaven.....it is here not else where that we are trying to establish Heaven and well being based on love which is THE SOURCE.  Any other motive is full of subjective and limitations and does not evolve to the pinnacle of understanding.  Rajiv's response: As far as the green elements go, he has not done any examination of my background in this field to be able to make such a sweeping assessment.....The yellow elements are entirely arbitrary and self serving mappings of Hindu ideas,symbols and personalities into the Christian history-centric dogma. He would need to read my book to understand why these mapping are false. Just because he has an organization behind this (and there are several such groups making this mindset mainstream) does not make the arguments legitimate. He is engaged in the process of digesting Hinduism into Christianity in the name of building unity. .... The blue elements (generic assumptions for digestion) are mentioned without any analysis or substantiation. Vasudeva Kutumbakam says we are all one family. But all family members are not the same. Even the kauravs and pandavs were one family. The devas and asuras are one family as well. In our ordinary families there are many types of individuals,with different gunas, different aptitudes and characters, each having an individual svabhava and prarabdha. So being a family does not make us identical clones. That would violate the principle of diversity inherent in the cosmos. Also, who says that " an intelligent wise man will always use his expertise tobuild a bridge"? The bridge can be for this Christian to come to me and become a Hindu, or the other way around. He proposes the latter kind of bridge, i.e. a synthesis in which Christian history-centrism stays intact. In my dialog with Mark Tully it becomes clear that neither side is willing to sacrifice his principle tenets to join the other side. ... I give the example of how Jesus is seen differently in Islam than in Christianity and why neither side can afford to compromise on this because it would completely undermine its own legitimacy.Since the truth is one, they say, why cant these views be merged into one? Likewise, the return of Jesus depends on restoring the Temple of David, but at that location there is now a mosque from which Mohammad went to paradise. So how is my interlocutor going to find the "one truth" that will satisfy both sides without compromising either. Meanwhile Priya bowls a no ball (sorry for the cricketing analogy): ... being a Hindu myself I have one simple questionfor you:  Hindus believe in re-incarnation,right??...So, you being a Hindu, should also believe in it. So, dear Rajiv, how do you expect me to believe that, you, in one of your past lives, were not bornin a "non-Hindu" household??...Can you guarantee that, in your past lives, you were born "only in a Hindu household"???......Can you guarantee that, you, in a past life, were not "abc" Christian priest or "xyz" non-Hindu person??... The very basic foundation of your theory - your Hindu faith, is built on the gradual evolution of the "individual atma"until IT realizes IT'S true nature and finally merges into ITSELF. Hence your argument is faulty....Hence disproved." Rajiv response: Priya's logic is flawed. An animal does not know the Newtonian laws of gravitation. Does that mean the gravitation laws don't apply to the animal? Clearly not. Priya is mixing belief with whether natural laws apply. Whether you believe in these laws or not makes no difference to whether they apply. Whether the Christian (i.e. in my previous birth potentially) believed in reincarnation or not won't change the fact that it still applicable in his case. I could have been an ignorant man in a prior birth, misguided by Christian dogma - but my belief would not determine the laws of karma-reincarnation I was subject to. So in my past birth as Christian I would be subject to karma-reincarnation even though I was taught otherwise by the church. Christians also agree that those who dont believe in original sin, redemption, heaven/hell are still subject to these. The same way, Hindus claim their ideas apply as laws of the cosmos whether you believe in them or not. Laws are independent of belief. Priya is too fixated on "belief determines what appliesto you". This is a Christian belief-centrism, and it is unscientific as shown above. " Mathulla responds: .. Here you name belief as natural laws. This will not work. Karma-reincarnation is not a natural law like Gravitational Laws. It is a faith only. Same way Christian Original sin, redemption heaven/hell etc a belief only at this moment. Nothing is proved here to call them natural laws. Of this two beliefs only one is true. Both can't be true. I can believe one or the other. That belief will not change the truth about which is right. So it is your choice to search for the truth and believe what you want to believe. Rajiv's response:  I agree with this. What we are dealing with is NOT truth but truth-claim, i.e. someone's claim of the truth. All my claims as a Hindu are truth-claims, and so are all your claims as a Christian. Karma-reincarnation is a truth-claim I have; and original sin, virgin birth and redemption are your truth-claims. So the point I made was that each truth-claim is a claim that it is the natural law, in that it is claimed to apply to everyone regardless of the person's belief. To explain what I mean: Christians claim original sin, heaven/hell etc apply to everyone including those who dont believe in them. In other words, I cannot opt out of being a born sinner just because as a Hindu I dont believe in it. Thats the Christian truth-claim. Likewise, the point I made to the lady was simply that my Hindu truth-claim of reincarnation applies even to Christians although they dont believe it. So, back to her point (which she pompously declared had "falsified my position):Karma-reincarnation as a truth-claim applied to me even in my prior lives when I was a Christian or Muslim or atheist or whatever. The falsity in her assumption is her statement that since I could have been a Christian in a prior life the karma-reincarnation would not have applied, hence she announced a contradiction. I hope this clarifies a few points: 1) All faiths make truth-claims, not axiom-free truths. 2) Each of these systems tends to have evolved to be internally consistent, more or less. 3) X may not believe in Y's truth-claims, but according to Y his truth-claims still apply to X. 4) Given this state of affairs, I advocate mutual respect between faiths. ..." Ravi shares some valuable feedback: This refers to Rajiv's last statement "BD tries to take on this well entrenched mentality amongst us. Many Americans who are digesting or praising it do so naively and without malice - they need to be educated by BD as to why its wrong." I just got back from an interfaith discussion, where I went armed with the Being Different book. Suffice to say that for westerners (Christians & Jews) & muslims, secure in the defence mechanisms of their respective religions/traditions, they are comfortable in describing "this is us", it is left to the Hindus to try & be intelligible to them, leading to much of the gross oversimplifications & wrong mapping the book talks about. In my supplementaries to the answers given by the Hindu rep who asked me to help out with the answers, I did make the key points that are so well highlighted in the book- One question was " are there false prophets & gurus, and if so, how do you recognize them?". In all the confused talk mixing up gurus with prophets (with the rep of Islam uncompromisingly stating that essentially "Mohd is the final prophet, and the once before are all there in the Koran, period."), it was left to me to add that both the terms, as well as the actual processes involved, come from fundamentally different cultures & worldviews. I also took the opportunity to add that we need to be able to live with people/cultures that have irreconciliable differences with us, understand these differences, appreciate the differences respectfully, and then we can talk about living together happily etc. .... ... Another instance of well intentioned people appropriating dharmic concepts into their own local identities as Christians, since that is culturally what they are most comfortable with. The plus side is, they are progressively loosening the hold of Abrahamic Theology/Cosmology on westerners, but the minus side certainly is the Digestion issue Rajiv's book is framing so well .... what is left of the source tradition that is unique & relevant? The gatekeepers of Abrahamic traditions certainly are not relaxing their guard on their Monopolistic Theologies, nor are they relenting on the Marketing via Prosyletization etc......." Carpentier comments: There is no doubt that the Christian Churches (and Muslim Ulema) are all interested in gaining converts ... On the other hand, we should also take into account sincere Christians who, as I have said in various lectures, want to see their tradition as a "parampara" or "sampradaya" within the Sanathana Dharma. That for them is the only way to reconcile their faith with the Cosmic Metaphysics carried by Hinduism, short of "converting" to it, which is always an artificial and somewhat artificial attempt. I may quote for instance Fr. Michael Fernandes who wrote that Indian Christians should replace Middle Eastern icons and stories from the Bible with indigenous figures and myths from the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas. That is a sincere and effective way of assimilating into the Dharma. Rajiv's response:  .... above is a common one among many liberal Christians especially Indian ones. It is also the view that prevails in stage 2 of UTurns. In theory this is a good view, but here are some caveats and issues: 1) If X (Christianity in this case) is to be assimilated into Y (Hinduism), there are certain facets of X that need to be REMOVED - just like removing the poison bags of a snake before it can be domesticated. I worked for 15 years addressing the question from many well meaning Christian friends: "What will it take to make you happy that we are genuine in adopting dharma and will never UTurn?" In large part this book is the result of this inquiry. Here is my answer: Understand each of the four major DIFFERENCES pointed out in BD and reject (yes, REJECT) the Western side if your goal is to genuinely adopt the dharma. The two sides are INCOMPATIBLE - thats the whole argument in the book. A concrete and simple example is the first difference (the topic of chapter 2). This is about history-centrism. The Christian should reject what I have described in detail as history-centrism. You cannot drag in the historical uniqueness of Jesus, the imperative of original sin, the mandate of virgin birth (to exempt Jesus from being a born sinner) and the clinching argument that he died for all our sins so that's the only path to salvation. 2) Please watch my video with Mark Tully carefully. He is among the most Hindu-friendly westerners one will find. Yet, despite all his efforts at emphasizing sameness, in the end he SIMPLY CANNOT ACCEPT the core Hindu ideas because the price will be to betray his Anglican Church. This video should be used for training our gurus, lost/confused secularized Hindus, as well as westerners aspiring to be "both at the same time". ..... 4) At the institutional level, the church needs to abandon its history-centrism for the same reasons cited above for individuals. Otherwise, the best it can offer is tolerance, and not mutual respect - explained in chapter 1. 4) All interfaith dialogues from the dharmic side should adopt this new strategy, and abandon the nonsense about celebrating when westerners adopt a few Hindu symbols, principles, etc., WITHOUT REMOVING THE HISTORY-CENTRISM. 5) When dharma gets mixed into a history-centric ideology, the result is the digestion of the dharma. The goat is digested in the belly of the tiger. .... 6) While Jews do not evangelise, their history-centrism is based on blood lines of chosen tribes. That form of history centrism causes their uturns back into claiming membership into the bloodline. 7) Finally, the western secular variety of history-centrism does not use the axioms of Judeo-Christianity. But it is founded on the Hegelian notions of the "West" as the engine of development/progress - a racist argument as shown in chapters 3 and 6 of BD. The whole Western Enlightenment movement (and now the postmodernism) are criticized in BD are based on Western Exceptionalism." Koti comments: There is nothing wrong in cherry picking, if the intention is for personal upliftment and not for annihilation (of validity) of other faiths or for destruction or distortion of unique-distinct features of each faith. Rajiv response:  If the dharmic leaders are strong (which it is not the case today and that's the whole point), the cherry picking by others will not adversely impact our own authenticity and the transmission of this to future generations. But once the cherry picked parts get digested into the powerful host, i.e. western universalism, they get re-exported back to India (as Deepak Chopra, various global gurus of the new age, ayurveda patented as western products, etc.) the acceptance of this by Indians is a form of mental colonialism. My project is not to stop others from cherry picking, because I have no power (or right) to do that. Rather, it is to re-ignite the dharmic source in a renaissance. So the purva paksha of the west is a ploy (upaya) to lead to a better understanding of our own selfhood.  Sameer comments: Physics does not belong to anybody (although we do acknowledge the role of Newton). Similarly, Dharma is universal, although we should acknowledge the role of Patanjali, Adi Shankara and the Buddha. Now, there can be a difference of opinion about what the term "Christianity" means. Some people who call themselves Christians may feel that the original teachings of Jesus were in harmony with those of Adi Shankara, Buddha et al. They may feel that the Nicene creed, which was adopted several centuries after the time of Jesus, is actually contrary to his original intent. This may not be mainstream Christianity (as yet), but it is a growing segment. There is nothing wrong with this, as long as there is no appropriation without acknowledgment, and there is honesty about how mainstream doctrinal Christianity differs from Dharma. Rajiv's response:  I recommend that you read chapter 2 of BD to get deeper into this issue. One must set aside terms like "Hindu" and "Christian" for this. It is the (1) history-centrism that is incompatible with (2) notions like karma, reincarnation, satchitananda as self, tat-tvam asi, etc. So its perfectly ok for a Christian to abandon 1 and adopt 2. Many persons do this and I have examined them. In fact I have a book coming out that deals with the top 10 christian thinkers who did precisely this. The question is whether this is "Christianity" any more. The term then is misleading and needs to get qualified. To deal with this predicament many western former christians have defined a new identity called SBNR (Spiritual But NOT Religious).... As long as the person is merely adding new exotic stuff without removing the old baggage, they tend to be happy. But there comes a stage later in life when the person has advanced enough to face the dilemmas of contradictions...." Manas posts: "The dharmaram college that the person refers to is a Christian seminary that is very active in devising methods for digesting Hinduism into Christianity. Along with the very liberal appropriation of Hindu symbolism and Sanskrit terms, they are even active in mapping Hindu festivals like Diwali as some form of Christianity. For example: "*Deepavali *(05 November): Brothers of E-Section have organized a beautiful display of lights in front of the Chapel after the Prayer Service." More information in their website: http://www.dharmaram.in/ Unless I am mistaken, this same group of Christians also publish a "journal" perfidiously named as "Journal of Dharma", which very regularly (and insidiously) explores themes for digesting Hindu mores into Christianity. Even some Hindu gurus (including some from Ramakrishna Mission) have been co-opted by them to further their agenda, as some articles in that "journal" reveal..."  Ganesh adds to Manas' information: "That he has mentioned Dharmaram college, Bangalore, as doing a deep study in an effort to build a bridge, in itself is complete suspect. DharmaRam college (http://www.dvk.in/) is a Syro-Malabar Christian college (http://www.dvk.in/aboutus.aspx) in the heart of Bangalore city which has openly taken over Hindu words like Dharma, Ram, Vidya, Kshetram et al. for showing sameness on your face only to tell that all these paths lead you to Jesus (see their vision statement)"  Amritasyaputra shares some (gory) feedback: "Dear Mr. Mathulla, Thank you for your request. I am "happy" that you, at least, accept the historic fact of killing millions of women, termed "witches". Now regarding the killing of competing christian sects: The following are wars against christians!!!! Just because they believed in Jesus in a different way... (you can imagine how the "non-believers" were dealt with).To "refresh your memory", I would like to refer you to the work of german historian K.-H. Deschner who wrote "The Criminal History of Christianity" in 9 (nine) volumes. Albigenser (Cathars) From Wikipedia: ...The crusader army under the Pope...The Cathars spent much of 1209 fending off the crusaders. The leader of the crusaders, Simon de Montfort, resorted to primitive psychological warfare. He ordered his troops to gouge out the eyes of 100 prisoners,...." December 24 the maoist-evangelist link This is my view & theory also - the evangelist/Maoist link. The evangelist depend on the Maoist for the violence to soften their targets & the Maoist depend on... Rajiv's comment: Yes, this nexus is the center of the story in Breaking India. I call this the Good Cop/Bad Cop strategy - one plays the game of helping while the other uses the opportunity to attack. Renu responds: This comment is so very correct and poignant too. Once I spent 3 weeks lecturing in the North East with Vivekananda Kendara workers and it is easy to see the rifts and violence being created by Missionaries in that region, among people who are so very innocent!

RMF Summary: Week of December 12 - 18, 2011

December 12

BD Chapter 1:The Audacity of Difference (topic-Piercing the Pretence *Book: "Being Different" [Citation-Malhotra, Rajiv (2011-10-10). Being Different: An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism (Kindle Location 334). Kindle...

December 13

Prof. Clooney refers to his event on BEING DIFFERENT a day later Here is what someone wrote that attended Clooney's public talk the next day at Harvard: Yesterday at Harvard, Prof. Clooney gave a talk on Hindu Theology ...

December 14

on debate with Mark Tully Mark Tully displays a frankness and honesty missing in many Indian secularists. It was an enriching and honest discussion that was wonderful to watch. While I...

Rajiv response:
"Rajiv comment: Actually, I loved the conversation with Mark because it brings out so many ideas in the book right from the mouth of a very explicit member and follower of the Anglican Church. (He had read the book very closely and we had held another private discussion on it prior to this recorded one.)

The important point is that he wants very badly to avoid differences and show sameness (like most Indians and westerners across the spectrum); but because he is so honest and I am so persistent in raising philosophical issues, the end
result is that the three differences listed in my email come out very explicitly.

Regarding the Togadia remark, please wait till another video comes up, the one from my TV interview with the JNU professor of Political Science. That explains the difference between the civilization and the modern politics. One can support the former without the latter - as I wish to do." 

December 14
Venkat shares:
"This links provides details on Catholic attempts to get into the
general and cultual media in order to bring Jesus to Hindus
excerpts:

2. Kalabhavan

Fr Abel CMI, a bright start from the Carmelite Missionaries was probably the first in India to venture into the ara of cultural media and liturgical music. Gradually with a fine blending of the electronic and the rich cultural arts of the Kerala, his Kalabhavan made inroads into Kerala's cultual and cinema fields with several of his stars scaling the media industry/

Inspired by Kalabhavan's unprecedented success, a number of other centres all over India have also taken to cultual an dfolk media to proclaim the Word of God as well as to develop these cultural forms...." 

December 15

Use of biased frameworks to interpret our texts Following is a paper published in a marginal philosophy journal. Two things are evident: (1) translations of Mahabharat by Westerners is used as source and is...

....Maximizing Dharma: Krsna's Consequentialism in the Mahabharata
Praxis, Vol. 3, No. 1, Spring 2011
http://www.praxisjp.org/

JOSEPH DOWD UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-IRVINE

Abstract The Mahabharata, an Indian epic poem, describes a legendary war between two sides of a royal family. The epic's plot involves numerous moral dilemmas that have intrigued and perplexed scholars of Indian literature. Many of these dilemmas revolve around a character named Krsna. Krsna is a divine incarnation and a self-proclaimed upholder of dharma, a system of social and religious duties central to Hindu ethics. Yet, during the war, Krsna repeatedly encourages his allies to use tactics that violate dharma. In this paper, I try to make
sense of Krsna's actions by analyzing them in terms of categories from Western moral philosophy. I show that Krsna seems to embrace an ethical approach called consequentialism, but that his version of consequentialism differs from Western
theories of consequentialism by seeing adherence to dharma as an intrinsic good..."

Ravi responds:
".....A quick read of this paper shows the usual prejudiced usage of western frameworks & attempts to fit sanskrit categories into them. This seems highly reductive, like using Newtonian physics, with it's linearity, to model the subatomic & astronomical worlds, which are too non-linear to be captured by this simplistic theories. The author skirts over the ideas of saamaanya dharma vs vishesha dharma (while completely ignoring the crucial "apaddharma"), but doesn't do much justice to the concepts, preferring to stick to "enlightenment" categories of "consequentialism", "deontological ethics" etc which are too immature to capture the complexity of the human/divine activities in ordinary life, let alone the Mahabharata.

Also, though he uses B K Matilal as a reference, he does not engage any of Matilal's erudite understanding of Dharma here, since that would undermine the case he is making. If anyone wants more detail on this, I can email some papers by Matilal's student J Ganeri which discusses the "moral delimmas in the MB" to some degree of satisfaction missing in this paper.

As a closing point, here is the excerpt from the "Being Different" book":

The word 'dharma' has multiple meanings depending on the context in which it is used. Monier-Williams's A Concise Sanskrit-English Dictionary lists several, including: conduct, duty, right, justice, virtue, morality, religion, religious merit, good work according to a right or rule, etc.54 Many others have been suggested, such as law or 'torah' (in the Judaic sense), 'logos' (Greek), 'way' (Christian) and even 'tao' (Chinese). None of these is entirely accurate, and none conveys the full force of the term in Sanskrit. Dharma has the Sanskrit root dhri, which means 'that which upholds' or 'that without which nothing can stand' or 'that which maintains the stability and harmony of the universe'. Dharma encompasses the natural, innate behaviour of things, duty, law, ethics, virtue, etc. For example, the laws of physics describe current human understanding of the dharma of physical systems. Every entity in the cosmos has its particular dharma – from the electron, which has the dharma to move in a certain manner, to the clouds, galaxies, plants, insects, and of course, man. Dharma has no equivalent in the Western lexicon. Colonialists endeavoured to map Indian traditions onto Christianity so as to be able to locate, categorize, understand and govern their subjects, yet the notion of dharma has remained elusive..."

Koenraad Elst responds:
"It's from a decent university, it doesn't claim to be prestigious, just to be professional and *good*. ...And if at all it really were "marginal", so what?

... I remember the Hindu nationalist student organization ABVP inviting people like Khushwant Singh, who holds them in contempt but never turns down an opportunity to speak his mind, to belittle his enemies and to pocket a fat speaking fee. The rest of mankind is bad enough, but nobody outdoes the Hindus in being status-conscious.

Indian Marxists have always known this and built up their own people, deliberately giving them posts and prestige (e.g. having them receive a prize in Moscow and then advertising hiom in India as "internationally acclaimed") and everything that bedazzles the semi-literate. The next thing would then be that the RSS invites him rather than any fellow Hindu because he has prestige, the prestige which their enemies have conferred on him. Instead of building up their own pantheon of big names.

>Two things are evident: (1) translations of Mahabharat by Westerners is used as source and is analyzed using Western moral philosophy,<

Unlike the many who treat Western philosophy as universal, this author explicitates that his approach is from Western philosophy, implying that their are legitimate non-Western philosophies too. ...The translation is not the point
here, the same data about Krishna's conduct are just as evident in the popular translations by Rajagopalachari and RK Narayan."     

ArjunShakti adds:
"That reminds of the time lord bagri had funded a series of talks on Hinduism at SOAS hosted by william dalrymple with Wendy Doniger as the star guest.It was even advertised on the National Hindu Students forums website."  

December 15

Interesting response from a self-acknowledged Western U-Turner Rajiv Malhotra: I am keeping the email below anonymous until I get permission from its author. It verifies my U-Turn Theory in one more example - I have hundreds of similar "confessions" but this one is from someone who has dealt with it and can articulate it effectively. This person saw my recent Univ of Delhi video where I briefly my U-Turn Theory. BEGIN QUOTE: Your U-turn theory is a good one and one that needs to be addressed.  I can tell you what did it for me.  Although I never gave up my Bhakti practices and always identified as a Vaishnava, after about 6 years of living in India something "clicked" inside me that said, "this local Uttar Pradeshi way of life is not congruent with my inner conscience".   It was of course a gradual development but the point at which it manifested as concrete rationality in my mind was around the 6 year mark.  I have since studied the levels of adjustment that ex-pats go through and it more or less corresponds.  That's beside the point, what I want to discuss with you are the REASONS WHY I did a U-Turn and why I think others like me may have as well.   1.  It is not philosophical or aesthetic but rather CULTURAL (samskarik).   What do I mean?  South Asian Dharmic philosophies and aesthetics are the most complete that I have ever known.  I have absolutely no issue with them whatsoever.  What became hard for me to digest were the cultural factors in the area of India I was living in (called the "cow belt" - the State of UP and surrounding areas).  I have found these to be EXTREMELY regressive.   This leads me into my next point:   2.  Rugged Individualism vs Family Orientation   As an American citizen you are familiar with the point of pride that many Americans claim: "our culture is built upon the concept of rugged individualism and personal freedom".    Now, I say that every culture's greatest strength is also its weakest link.  That American "rugged individualism" is the root of our high divorce rate, our loneliness/depression/high pharmaceutical drug use of Prozac and other "mood drugs", and the overall lack of family values that has been on the rise in this country.    However, that same "rugged individualist" spirit is what made me, an innocent young woman of 23, take off to the other side of the globe to pursue the Sadhak's way of life. That same individualist spirit gave me the strength to live in situations there that even Indian women my own age said they could never do for fear of being alone and without a family net for support.      However, that same individualist spirit was not appreciated in the area of India where I lived.  In that area Family is God.  In path/pravachan which in Brindaban is often broadcast over loud speakers.  The story of Shravan Kumar, whom I'm assuming you are of course familiar with, was not uncommon in discourses on Bhakti.  Now, as an American Vaishnava who left her parents home at 18, I was like, "please tell me what bhakti to parents has to do with bhakti toward Bhagavan?".  And indeed, in the path of Bhakti I follow, the 2 are not equated, HOWEVER how the plays out in real life is very different and highly contrasted between the Indian Vaishnavas in our sanga and the Western ones.  The Indian Vaishnavas all lived with their parents or in-laws, unless they were brahmacharis and sannyasis living in a Math, while the Western Vaishnavas looked like they had almost nothing to do with their parents.   To the Indian bhaktas this appears very strange and to the Western bhaktas, grown adults living with their parents or in-laws (and hence being largely controlled by them) looks very strange.   This family-orientation bleeds over into other areas of life.  Forgive me for saying this but I have found that amongst the local people, even the ones with mulitple or high university degrees, their outlook on life was not very broad but what I would call "domesticated".  It was rare for me to find anyone in that area that I felt I could have an intellectually stimulating conversation with.    This leads me into my next point:   3.  The "Ideal" of India vs the Reality   I was introduced to the Dharmic School of Bhakti in the West by people who idolozed, idealized and romanticized India.  I was exposed to incomparably beautiful medieval Bhakti literature that described Braj, its culture, its aesthetics, etc as the paramount of all Truth, Beauty, Refinement and Spirituality.   This romanticized ideal of the turiya state of Goloka Braj and Krishna Lila is what myself and other Western bhaktas superimposed onto Brindaban U.P. and expected to find there.    Of course you know that is what we do not find there.  That state comes through grace and sadhan-bhajan.  I have found that local Brij-wasis really did not understand to what extent we Westerners idealized Braj and how much of a disappointment we could experience after that idealization is not realized in the real, day to day life of U.P.   At some point I had to separate the superimposition of the ideal and the reality of Uttar Pradesh.  So there is one split in the psyche.  Then again, likewise, I had to separate my cultural samskaras (American/individualist) from the way of life that is the norm in U.P., which is a completely different set of samskaras.   I decided I was no longer going to be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.   My gut feeling is that those who have done a u-turn do not do it out of malice but there are genuine root samskarik differences in the way a Westerner will approach Dharmic traditions and the way a South Asian will.   Let's look at Buddhism and Yoga for example.  Western Buddhists and Yoga practicioners tend to veer "left" politically and socially.  Many are divorced or don't bother to marry at all (but don't refraining from having kids - LOL).  There is no "shame" or "lajja" invovled.  Contrast that with South Asian Buddhists and Hindus.    Moreover, the Western Buddhist and Yogi tend to be invovled in "going green" and other "progressive" acts of environmental or "global conscious" activity and consider these things to be "dharma" -  while the South Asian Buddhist/Hindu will see to the well-being of their FAMILY as their "dharma".   I can't tell you how many new-age-buddha-yoga-type single moms I meet in the USA who are doing meditations and charity works for poor children on the other side of the planet while they tend to neglect their very own kids! They'd just as soon run off to volunteer in an orphanage while leaving their kids in the custody of their ex-husband.   If it has to be distilled down into one thing - I would say this emphasis on family at the expense of the individual is a South Asian thing and the emphasis on the individual at the expense of the family is a Western thing - and is at the core of the U-turn, whether or not the U-turners realize that.   .... you and I are on the same page regarding many topics.  I've noticed many Indians cannot articulate the uniqueness of the Hindu philosophical systems and aesthetics and therefore in the face of people who can articulate the "uniqueness" of say Islam or Buddhism or Christiantiy, they come up feeling inferior and dumbfounded.  Hindus need to get clear on the contributions that the Sat Darshan offered to the world in terms of philosophy and psychology.  The Sat Darshan is at the root of practically everything that I've ever read.   I gave a presentation on how Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs corresponds to the Yoga-vedantic theory of "kosh"; annamaya kosh, pranamaya kosh, manamaya kosh, vijnanmaya kosh and anandamaya kosh.   It just amazes me that the world is completely ignorant concerning the insights of the ancient Dharmic philosophers.  There only exposure to the theories is the much later, watered down versions of Western theoricists.  That has its place too, but the ancient texts and theories are far richer and wider in scope.   You are doing great work in exposing this in a coherent fashion.  Most people think Hinduism is a hodge-podge, not realizing that there are distinct philosophical schools with very clear goals (sadhya), goals that are often different from one another and hence require a different approach (sadhana), but nonetheless contain certain overlapping elements that put them under the "Dharmic" category as opposed to say the Abrahamic category of thought. END QUOTE

bluecupid wrote:
I'm the person who wrote that email to Rajiv. Since that time I completed watching more of his videos and came to understand that what he thus far described as "U-turn" does not really apply to me in that I have not turned at all away from the Dharmic lineage I am a part of. Moreover, those he sites as having done "u-turns" have not lived extensively in India and their contact with India was/is extremely limited and confined only to theory. If I am correct, their "u-turns" are in connection with theories/philosophies/religions.

My situation is different. I found myself living in India and practicing my religion amongst indigenous practicioners who brought their Indian (often village) cultural conditionings (samskaras) with them into the religion, mixed them, and passed off their cultural conditionings as part of the religion, and in turn expected foreign (non-Indian) practicioners to adopt those cultural conditionings right alongside practicing the sadhana.

No thankyou!

.... Of course when ex-patting to any country there is a certain level of cultural assimilation that is required, and most non-Indians who ex-pat to India for religious reasons go above and beyond that level in their desperate attempts to
fit in and be accepted. But there is a point at which "enough is enough" - that point for me is when the surrounding cultural ethos is at odds with my own internally developed sense of ethics, morality, fairness and commonsense.

Rajiv's response:
... In my UTurn Theory book (forthcoming), I distinguish among 3 types of guru movements depending on how much demand they place on their western followers. ISKCON is an example that integrates culture/lifestyle with dharma very deeply. Other movements separate culture from dharma, but still preserve the unity of dharma and you cannot take bits and pieces here and there. Then there is the third variety I call the buffet or flea market, where you learn some breathing
technique from one place, and another nice story some place else, and try to mix your own ad hoc cocktail including history-centrism of Judeo-Christianity.

My guess would be that the lady named bluecupid went into the first type of group, and found it too stuffy, so she left it.

I wonder if she is now practicing the second or third kind. If she is conscious and secure as a practitioner of dharma, then it would be difficult to mix that with original sin, only one life to live, one incarnation of God as his son, sacrifice and redemption - at least in the version that is standard in the
Church. In this case, she has not uturned from dharma.

On the other hand, if she has gone into the third variety, reintegrating a few things she learned from dharma back into her Judeo-Christian identity, then I would call it a uturn.  

bluecupid follows up:
"....In short - I reject the idea that in order to practice "dharma" I have to live like a medieval Indian bahu. I am not Indian, I am not living during the medieval era, and I sure as heck ain't nobody's bahu!

I've heard complaints that old colonialist literature referred to Indians as "children". Well, it's now almost 2012 and it seems Indians themselves are more than happy to keep each other living as children with no help from colonialists.

If I have to give up many of my cultural conditionings in order to practice dharma properly, then Indians do too."

Rajiv's response: 
"... We got that point in your first post loud and clear. There are clearly some deep scars from the horrific experience you
had in UP, and this is often a cause for rejection. But you seem to have extrapolated this into a hate for Indians. Were you someone's "bahu" in India? Did they ill-treat you?" 

Venkata.. comments:
"... There is a huge reservoir of mind and intellect available in Hindu brahmacharis and sannyasis who have high educational background. They are currently largely engaged only in reinforcing their learning of the Shastras or in teaching them. It is from this reservoir that some individuals should be
encouraged and persuaded to undertake rigorous academic studies in comparative religion, philosophy, metaphysics and the like. ..."  

bluecupid's response to Venkata..:
"Most Indian brahmacharies and sannyasis are mired in an old world mindset. They may know how to rattle off Upanishadic slokas by rote memorization, which by the way doesn't take any intellectual nuance or analystical skills, but they are clueless as to the issues in the wider world around them. Their approach to everything is from their old world....

You can learn the siddhant of their particular school of thought from them, but not much else. Its a narrow, rigid world. ...

The narrow and rigid world inhabited by these brahmacharies and sannyasis prevents them from truly experiencing the wider world and getting a "pulse" on the people.

Just see - the natural ally to Hindus in the West are the Yoga and New Age circles. How many Indians do you see in Western yoga classes or at New Age centers or a Tantra workshop? Nada. Well, everyone once in a while one or 2,
if the guest speaker is an Indian.

Closed. Rigid. Domesticated."  

Kundan responds:

Kundan: I understand that you are not addressing the issues from the Judeo-Christian perspective and therefore we will focus on the cultural aspects only, though I must add that it is increasingly difficult to separate culture from religio-spiritual roots. It is as difficult to separate the Indian culture and traditions from its Vedantic-Buddhist roots as it to separate the western culture from its Judeo-Christian roots. As a multi-pronged approach to analyzing the situation here, I feel that as we put the culture of UP to scrutiny over here, we also put your framework of analysis to some critical analysis. No one is free from his/her culture over here. If the local Bhaktas are not, even you are not. Having said the above let me take up your other points.

Kundan: I see scathing judgments on your part on the culture of UP which you qualify in terms of silly and backward. As a professor of cultural psychology, this is where I see that your critical analysis of your own framework and your paradigm has not happened. When your cultural paradigm comes in operation, it does as a mainstream one, modern one and most civilized one against which everything else needs to be evaluated. I understand that you went to India looking for spirituality but how is your paradigm different from the colonial ones of the British—you are speaking in the same tongue as them? The customs are silly and UP culture is backward....

India has a cosmology that is distinct from that of the west. I am not talking about the spiritual texts of the tradition that you may have studied but did you spend time in understanding the cosmology of India. Did you spend time understanding the history of India? Did you spend time in understanding the colonial impact on India that happened for about 1000 years? In this short post of yours, it does not seem so—because the post, in my opinion, is vitriolic. Understanding does not lead to vitriol but compassion and lack of judgment.

Kundan: I do not think that you understand the Indian family system—you do not understand the underlying cosmology of Indian family system, for you have judged but you have not understood. The Indian family system is based on the cultural value of interconnectedness, both of which are extensively explained in Vedantic principles and Buddhist principles. The Buddhists call this as the principle of “Pratitya samutpada” or “dependent co-origination.” Because things are interconnected and no entity exists in itself or in isolation, the Indian family system does not operate on the principle of “rights.” It operates on the principle of “duties” which we also call as dharma. Since things are interconnected, traditionally we did not have nuclear families but extended families. ...

It will be the greatest mistake of an individual to understand traditional family system from the perspective of “rights.” The Indian family system operates on the principle of “duties” and “responsibilities”—incidentally both the terms in the western world have negative connotations. It is in the proper performance of everyone’s duties or dharma that everyone else’s rights get accounted for and taken care of. The problems that we see in India today is because India has lost touch with its cosmological roots and colonization has a large and important role to play in such a situation. Because Indian traditions are not taught in universities, the westernized Indians are as far away as possible from their roots and rural Indians do not largely understand why they practice what they practice.

Living in an extended family which is based on the principle of respect for elders and a sacrificing love for younger ones is not living in a medieval era. It is practicing a different system of family from the one practiced in the west. Your linearity of time and social change cannot and should not become the standard of the evolution or change of my society (this is colonial and necessarily and essentially violent).

I do not say that everything is hunky dory as far as women in UP are concerned but a western brand of feminism cannot and should not be the scale on which UP’s society needs to be evaluated whether it is medieval or ancient. Western feminism and individualism go hand in hand. You not only have a different cosmology but also had a ruthless and egocentric patriarchy, against which western feminism rebelled and rightly so. But does India need a western brand of feminism is a question which we Indians need to ask and reflect upon? And as we reflect of the above question, we first need to take into account that Indian women have enjoyed great privileges and great status in the society in the past. Yes, things changed for the worse for them in troubled and colonial times but when we discuss their position in the society today, it needs to be in consonance with our dharmic and essential values. By aping the west, we will not go far. As Krishna in the Gita says about individual’s dharma that practicing one’s own swadharma is much better that the dharma of others even if it is considered inferior to that of someone else, Indian feminism needs to be in consonance with the dharma or the essential nature of India and not of the west, which has its own nature and cosmology and rightful place in the scheme of civilizations. You have taken your western brand of feminism and evaluated the Indian women, and as I said it is essentially colonial and deeply problematic.

In line of the above, you would also want to critically examine the following: “Face it. When you live in India you live in several centuries at once.” If one critically examines your sentence in the above, one needs to ask: whose centuries are we talking about? The one that have been defined by the west? When we talk about ancient, medieval, and modern, whose history of progress are we talking about? The answer is that of the west! It is again colonial and essentially violent to superimpose on Indian history the history of western progress. For if we really look at the situation closely, we had our golden era when the west was encountering dark ages.

Westerns are in for a shock in India not because Gurus have projected India as such but because of their own romantic projections. They want to find in India what they find lacking in the west. They conveniently forget what they are looking for in India has been plundered, ransacked, and decimated by their forefathers. Instead of blaming their own ancestry for the state of affairs there, they find it convenient to blame the victims. As a feminist you must be familiar with this discourse: blaming the rape victims for the rape that has occurred on them. Many of the present day westerners looking for peace and salvation in India end up doing exactly what their forefathers have done: violently hitting at the culture as they seek the spiritual wealth.  

Spiritual progress happens through self-inquiry. In this short post of yours, I find your gaze projected outwards and not inwards. I truly hope that you will not get defensive in this dialogue and give a serious thought to the many things said above.  

Kundan: You are again bringing your cultural standards in the above. The mainstream American culture is based on individuality and independence. The Indian culture is based on interconnectedness and relatedness. In order for Indians to be adults, we do not need to leave home by the time we are 18. We do not need to separate from everybody else to become adults. Indians become adults by practicing their dharma towards their grandparents, parents, elders, uncles and aunts, siblings, children, nieces, and nephews. There is no need to be judgmental here, for the Indians also can bring their cultural standards and not have very nice things to say—but that does not take things far in terms of peace, harmony, and mutual respect. Instead of having one western scale of human development, we can have many legitimate human development scales...

...In order to practice the dharma, a better way is to understand the Indian ways from within rather than expect the Indians to relinquish their cultural ways. Many of us Indians who are living in the west, who also have a dharmic practice, have spent a long time to understand the west from within and in doing so we have enlarged our self and our identity. We have made our being supple and flexible just as the One Self is supple and flexible to have become the many in the world. Many of us Indians are able to understand the western ways and Indian ways equally well but let me tell you that we have also burned the midnight oil, by the grace of the divine, to have come to such a state. Also, the process required excruciating self introspection. From a spiritual standpoint, let me also add that ego hates it to go within and look deeply inside. It more often than not tries to find fault outside.

.... Your expectations from the sanyasins and brahmacharis are interesting to say the least. As I have pointed out in the above passages, it is quite clear that you have not done the work to understand the cosmological underpinnings of traditional Indian culture but you expect the sanyasins and brahmacharis (who are lodged in their own world and have not even come out from there) to know all the nuances of the global and post-modern world. May I ask you what gives you this sense of entitlement? On a separate but related note, postmodern is most recent for the west. But all the central tenets of postmodernism has been most beautifully discussed in India for about thousand years in the philosophy of the various schools of Mahayana Buddhism, beginning with the one founded by Nagarjuna. The translation of Buddhist scriptures in the west in the enlightenment era has had a lot to do with your postmodern movement.

Kundan: I agree with the above. They need to do a lot of work but also do the people from the west if they want to go there not as colonial plunderers looking for spiritual gold but as people who are genuinely interested in creating bridges and a better world. A better world is not built by imposing one’s standards on others but by recognizing differences and understanding those differences from within. The erstwhile colonized nations already know from their experience that the former paradigm does not work.  Having said the above, I am really looking forward to reading Rajiv ji’s book, “Being Different” for it feels to me that these are some of the issue that he is discussing in this book.

... The allies, in my understanding, need to do a lot of work, particularly when they have such hatred and judgment as mentioned in the closing remarks."

Ganesh comments:

"For me Bluecupid108 seems to fit Sri Rajiv Malhotra's description of someone who is trying to find some sort of uniformity in the chaos that Indians are absolutely comfortable living in. Again this chaos, as Sri Malhotra said is within the person who is trying to understand a particular culture of India, in this case that of UP. As Malhotra said, a person knows what an open source is but to be in one and gel in it is an all together another ball game. Welcome to the free world called Indian cosmos where all your karma karya no matter which path you (gnana, bhakti, dhyana etc.) eventually forces you to self-introspect on the issues your ego keeps throwing within you from time to time.

Rajiv's response:

This is a very astute observation.

Bluecupid makes some important and valid points. But I feel she fits my description in chapter 4 of the book, titled "Order and Chaos". The fear of chaos runs deep in the western psyche. The chapter quotes surveys by American scholars on what Americans feel about India. The "land of chaos", "teeming masses", "anthills", "foul smells", etc. - these are some of the common ideas and anxieties that are expressed.

The chapter then reverses the gaze to locate this anxiety in the westerner's biblical unconscious (even those who claim to have left it behind) as well as the Aristotelian Law of Excluded Middle.

My talk at YPO Chennai (available at the web site under "videos" explains this point in simple terms. " 

sb asks:

"a. Is the characterization of Indian society as "pre-feminist" totally correct (as if there are no other dimensions) ?
b. Why do we have to swallow as gospel truth that Indian culture, in it's ideal development, will have to travel the curve from "pre-feminist" to "post-modern" in the western sense of the terms, as if there are no alternative models.

If Judeo-Christian paradigm forces one to look at Dharmic traditions in a certain way, so does this author's Western Feminist outlook. I believe the lines between Dharma and cultural samskaras aren't as bold and defining as she says.
In many cases, they are intertwined, the latter often as a support to the former. Her hard distinguishing between them helps her to do the "pick-and-choose" that other U-turners do with regard to more core Dharma issues."

Rajiv's response: 

I agree with the above point - this is what I call Western
Universalism, and this is what the book debunks." 

December 15

Video of HarperCollins launch: Ambassador Pavan Verma and Prof. Madh I thoroughly enjoyed Pavan Varma's presentation at the launch of "Being Different." I think he beautifully blended the contents of his own book, "Becoming...

December 15

Fwd: Video: Prof. Francis Clooney (Harvard) comments on my book, BEI Fwded. RVN ... From: R. Venkatanarayanan <daps2322@...> Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 12:10 PM Subject: Fwd: Video: Prof. Francis Clooney (Harvard) comments...

December 15

Journal Am Acad Religion: Disgusting Bodies Venkat: "The latest volley echoing down the corridors of the ivory tower, reminiscent of the earliest missionaries: Disgusting Bodies, Disgusting Religion: The Biology of Tantra Thomas B. Ellis, Department of Philosophy and Religion, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC 28608, USA. Hard-core Tantric practice is disgusting, a point several scholars make. Scholarly interpretations of Tantric disgustingness, however, tend to follow the lead of Mary Douglas in suggesting that what disgusts is ultimately a reflection of social–historical concerns with borders and boundaries..." bluecupid responds: "Indian people: please update yourselves. Most Universities in "the West" veer liberal/anti-judeo christian. Most Western University professors are liberal and suffer from "white guilt" or "liberal guilt" - both politically correct stances in which white liberals are supposed to take on the collective guilt of bygone eras where white people did bad things to non-white people. There is no "missionary agenda here. This man has a post-modern scientific mindset and is most likely either atheist or agnostic. Christianity is dying in the West. In Western Europe it is on its last leg and will be a complete gonner within a decade . The Academic and New Age West is more informed by Secularism, Feminism and the Sexual Revolution than it is by "Judeo-Christian values". .... My suggestion? Update yourselves and stop living in a colonial "Judeo-Christian" obsessed mindset. Join the grown ups table where no topic is off limits. " Rajiv response:  In your intense anger towards Indians, you forget several things: 1) The person whose message you are responding to is not an Indian, but Mary, very much a white American. 2) Your assessment of European decline of Christianity does NOT apply to USA. Please do some homework on how Christianity differs in USA from Europe, and why this is so. 3) Your assessment that the academy is not influenced by Judeo-Christianity buy by liberalism, feminism, postmodernism, is only partially correct. It is ALSO deeply influenced by Judeo-Christianity. I wonder how familiar you are with the AAR/SBL - and why after a temporary separation it was decided to once again make their annual conference coincide given the tight coupling of their members. 4) Uturns are not limited to Judeo-Christianity, as I point out repeatedly. Westerners who have rejected religiosity also tend to retain a distinct sense of American Exceptionalism (e.g. Chris Mathews of MSNBC), and many of them find it hard to accept their own biases - because, after all, their self image is that of the global citizen who is helping the downtrodden non-whites. 5) In this forum you are not dealing with folks in the villages of UP, which you felt was medieval in the 1500s. It might be worth noting that just as you gained a good insight into India having lived there (prior to your rejection of it), so also many of us living in the US have done a very solid study of American culture. Thats what the whole enterprise of "reversing the gaze" is about in this book." Venkata.. responds to bluecupid: You say Christianity is dying in Europe. Could be. But are you aware that Germany and England are among the countries from where Christian churches of different denominations send the largest volumes of money to India, year after year? This is as per government records of declared inflow. Ostensibly it is all for 'charity', for 'poor children' 'down-trodden women' etc etc. But it is common knowledge on the ground in India that a large part of the funds goes actually to conversion programs. This factor does influence the mind of India-based Indians even though they may be living in 'post-modern' world of Western intelligentsia and academics." Venkat responds: The West is sexually liberated? Really? I would recommend a few books for your enlightenment: 1) Maines, Rachel P.: The Technology of Orgasm - "Hysteria," the Vibrator, and Women's Sexual Satisfaction. This is an excellent account of how, until as late as 1952 CE, the West did not even understand female orgasm and called it "hysterical paroxysm," and set out to suppress it! In fact, until 1920 CE, "hysteria" was the second most common "disease" in the West and the women were viewed as "troublemakers" to be "pacified" by the physician. Now, the backward Hindus had written the kâmaúâstras at least 2,500 years before that where they explored feminine sexuality. Consider that as an ace served. 2) http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/04/orgasm.aspx : This summarizes recent researches in human sexology which indicate that nearly 70 percent of western women report faking orgasm and one of the reasons is "insecure avoidance" in which a woman fakes orgasm to avoid difficult discussions with her male partner .... Now that does not sound like the absence of "lajja," does it? It seems to me that western women are forced to define themselves according to western male conceptions (stemming from memetically induced male sexual anxieties) leading to insecurities. 3) Blakeslee, Sandra and Blakeslee, Matthew: The Body has a Mind of Its Own - How Body Maps in Your Brain Help You Do (Almost) Everything Better: ... This must be the sign of the "liberated" westerner you have in your mind, no?" December 16 Google gives $11M+ to IJM (largest CSR?) "The Washington-based International Justice Mission, a human rights organization that works globally to rescue victims of slavery and sexual exploitation, was...  December 16 A history lesson on the importance of purva paksha Chandramouli posts: I found this portion of the review very interesting. ************************************************************ "Shivaji's rajaniti as reflected in the Ajnapatra While agreeing in general with the above observation of the author, it is possible to argue that in one specific instance, Indians did try to engage and challenge the Westerners using the strategy of purvapaksha. The case in point is Ajnapatra, a short text composed in Marathi in 1715 by Ramchandra Amatya, the prime minister of Shivaji (a gritty fighter) who had founded a kingdom in the face of combined opposition of the Mughals and the Portuguese, who were emerging as a maritime power in India at the time. It is divided into two sections. The first section comprises the first two chapters giving a brief narration of the achievements of Shivaji and his sons in building and preserving the Maratha Empire. The second section comprises seven chapters in which the Amatya discusses the principles of state policy and various aspects of administration developed as part Shivaji's administration.the..." December 17 Report: Angana Chatterji, featured in "Breaking India" is fired from http://www.indiawest.com/news/1981-ciis-fires-two-professors-after-student-complaints.html *CIIS Fires Two Professors after Student Complaints* * * - *R*ichard... December 18 CIIS hearings and report on dismissal of Angana Chatterji and her hu The two attached pdf reports are self explanatory and important. Angana was a tyrant ideologue who harassed students that did not follow her line. She became a...