RMF Summary: Week of December 28 - January 3, 2013

December 28
8 yrs old Traumatized for drawing Hindu Swastik by a Teacher in America
Poonam asks: How do we deal with this? This keeps happening. A lot more needs to be done by us than the small victory in California. Apparently, the correction of facts in...

Rajiv Malhotra adds: 
Before you read this important news item below, please read the positions [see RM's response following the news item] I took on this very issue many years.
 

(pictures link source flickr: farm9.staticflickr.com)

8 yrs old Traumatized for drawing Hindu Swastik by a Teacher in America

A formal complaint is pending since Dec. 9, 2012 against the Principle, Counselor and the teacher Aid with the appropriate authorities. It is our sincere appeal to the community that they should send their support for the 8 yrs old via e-mail under the heading .....

Since Middlesex County is home to a large Hindu population; community must demand that all Educators in Middlesex County Schools must be educated about Hindu Religious Symbols keeping in mind that Hinduism is practiced by almost 1 Billion people around the world.

http://blogs.siliconindia.com/davemakkar/Corruption/8-yrs-old-Traumatized-for-drawing-Hindu-Swastik-by-a-Teacher-in-America-bid-zS86R4us10402948.html

.....

.....

Rajiv Malhotra responds:

1) Pages 40-41 of the report of the Hindu-Jewish Summit where I raised this issue for the first time before the apex Jewish group. See(pdf):  When the Hindu team was making preparations at the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam months earlier, I felt that none of the prepared speeches our side discussed had a single point that made any difference, because everyone was saying common, non-controversial things like "there is one God". I suggested to Swami Dayananada Saraswati that we must raise serious issues like the Aryan invasion theory, swastika, so-called "idol" worship, etc. Our goal should be to use the summit for setting the record straight straight officially in ways that could be useful. Everyone felt that such issues would be too controversial and risky. But swamiji supported my idea, and asked me to be forthright and make that point before the gathering. Hence, my speech at the historic event. Only a short summary of my talk is given on page 40 of the above document. After my talk, the Hindu side looked nervous about what the Jews might think of my statements. Most of them did not anticipate that I would say this. But the head of the Jewish delegation gave a very positive response to my talk. He said that this view of mine was new to them, and they appreciate knowing how Hindus felt on these topics. So both sides decided to organize a team of scholars to further study the issues I had raised....

2) The matter culminated a few years later at a subsequent Hindu-Jewish Summit that was held in Israel, at which a formal resolution was passed that contained the following statement: ‘The svastika is an ancient and auspicious symbol of the Hindu tradition. It is inscribed on Hindu temples, ritual altars, entrances, and even account books. A distorted version of this sacred symbol was misappropriated by the Third Reich in Germany, and abused as an emblem under which heinous crimes were perpetrated against humanity, particularly the Jewish people. The participants recognize that this symbol is, and has been for millennia, sacred to Hindus, long before its misappropriation.’

3) Read my blog on HuffPost on this matter...

WHAT SHOULD BOTHER US: What concerns me is that others have not taken up this issue further. After getting such a historical declaration from the highest Jewish authority, why is there no further activity by Hindus, especially the mouse-clicking activists who waste time on useless pursuits but have little organized effort to produce concrete results. By now, the output from the Hindu-Jewish Summit ought to have been sent to every school district in USA; every Hindu parent ought to be told to cite this declaration if such an issue is ever raised by anyone......

Suraj adds:

"I have known Pujya Swami Dayananda Saraswati since 1969 and I believe that he undoubtedly is the most ardent proponent of the Tenets, Beliefs and Practices of Sanatan Dharma presently. I am not a member of Arsha Vidya or HDAS or any other Organization to which he is affiliated. However, I have listened to many of his talks in Canada and I have done Pranaams to him many times. He is a living Mahatma. I also admire Shri Rajivji for his grit and determination in defense, propagation and promotion of Sanatan Dharma in the West as well as in India....

The Toronto District School Board(TDSB) in Canada  has a Document entitled 'Guidelines and Procedures for the Accommodation of Religious Requirements, Practices, and Observations'. I had the honour and privilege to be selected by the TDSB to write the section on Hinduism (Hindu Dharma) dealing with the religious accommodation of Hindus in the TDSB. This Document was published in 2000 and currently there is a 2nd Edition (2010). In the introduction it is stated that 'Hindus use a variety of sacred symbols during worship. Some of these are the OM, Swastika, Shivalingam ....'. Even though this document exists, there is still significant religious discrimination and lack of accommodation for Hindus within the TDSB and other Public Institutions in Canada...."

Poonam responds to Suraj ji:

"I am honored that you took the tme to respond to my message. Where can I find a copy of the guidelines you referred to? I believe it would be helpfu in guiding me to design my plan of action regarding this. I do intend to do some thing about it. & want to do it in 2 ways. One is by educating our own children & arming them with the information appropriate for their level..."

Nilesh shares:

"I am quoting from my book that was published in 2010 regarding Swastika and Nazis (Pages 66-67), I indicated the need of work to be done to reclaim Swastika for Hindus. Hope it adds one more voice to what has been a unique cause of Shri Rajiv Malhotra:

"Swastik and the Aryan Connection"
"Swastik is a `Good Luck' sign of Hindus. It was also used by the ancient Germanic tribes of pre-Christian era in Europe. With its identity considered as `Aryan' it had been adopted by the Nazi Germany in 20th century for rousing the patriotic-passion among Germans by Adolf Hitler. Due to its adoption by Nazis, this divine sign of Hindus is occasionally misunderstood even if applied in context of Hindus. For Hindus, this is purely a religious, non-political `good-luck' symbol. Rudyard Kipling (1835-1936), a Mumbai-born English writer and recipient of the 1907 Nobel Prize in literature, used to inscribe the Swastik and the picture of Hindu God Ganesh on his books. Even he had to take Swastik off his books lest he gets identified with Nazis.
... Arya and Aryan are Sanskrit words. Sanskrit is considered as the mother language of all the Indo-European languages and in it the word Arya is always used as an adjective signifying `cultured person' or a `noble man' and on many occasions.."

The thread below has generated a lot of comments and discussion and we will try to devote a single post  that summarizes this in depth. We excerpt the introductory post only below.

 

December 29

Sanskrit Dictionary : Amarakosha and MW dictionary Comparison
BVKS posts:

"This is in relation to the topics : Sanskrit Digestion, Techno- digestion of Sanskrit through Computational linguistics, Demand for a review of Monier Williams Sanskrit-English dictionary.
...
The issue: According to the 2012- Ph.D Award Thesis from University of Hyderabad, there is a whopping 45% error in Monier Williams Sanskrit Dictionary in marking the gender tag for Sanskrit words.

...  Reference : Doctoral thesis (March 2012) from Hyderabad University - Page .... available for free download at url: .....

The Question : How and Why Sanskrit Traditional schools all over the world, are tolerating and continuing to use Monier Williams Sanskrit dictionary,  which carries almost a whopping 45% error in providing correct gender tag for
Sanskrit words ? Why MW dictionary ( and with several of its clones floating on the web) with all its shortcomings and deviations from traditional Sanskrit dictionaries, especially Amarakosha are being used by Computational Sanskrit Linguists as an authentic resource ? Has any one assessed the impact of the inaccurate / inadequate Sanskrit dictionary as a study base in making translations of Sanskrit traditional resources? "

December 30

Ramanujan's theory proved right - almost 100 years after he died http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2254352/Deathbed-dream-puzzles-renowned-Indian-mathematician-Srinivasa-finally-solved--100-years-died.html...

December 30

Swastika Brochure - For Your Use Namaste, Two organizations, namely, IFCMW (Inter-Faith Conference of Metropolitan Washington DC) and AJC (American Jewish Committee) published the enclosed...

December 31 

Efficacy of the Gayatri Mantra Kaajal shares:

.

"A friend forwarded this to me. Speaks to the point made in BD regarding the non-translatability of various Sanskrit mantras & words

GAYATRI MANTRA THE BEST DIVINE PRAYER HYMN IN THE WORLD!
....
Dr.Howard Steingeril, an American scientist, collected Mantras, Hymns and invocations from all over the world and from all religions, tested their strength in his Physiology Laboratory. He concluded that the Hindus Vedic Gayatri Mantra is the most rewarding scientifically.
'
That the Gayathri Mantra produced 110,000 sound waves per second. This was the highest and found it to be the most powerful prayer hymn in the world..."

Rohit responds:
"Can anyone provide an independent media reference to this?  I searched and found it only on blogs, Facebook, yahoo groups etc., Couple of these referred to alien involvement. The origin could be the documentary series on the origin of religions based on alien invasion.

If the following note is true, it illustrates the importance of original Sanskrit words and their sounds."

December 31

Baskaran Pillai Center: digestion of Hinduism? Came to know about a Dr. Baskaran Pillai, who was described as a "great man with great ideas" his site describes him as : "Dr. Baskaran Pillai is an...

January 1

Some work plans for 2013 Someone asked me today what I am working on and how he could help. So here's what I wrote back: I am intensely busy finish a book on Swami Vivekananda that...

January 2 (continuing discussion)

Pt Ravi Shankar Interview
I found this interview with Pt Ravi Shankar from the 60s: http://www.youtube.

com/watch?v=9YdK2tB2gKM It is impressive how he stands up for the Indian tradition...

Swami shares :

"I reproduce a part of an article by a very knowledgeable music critic late Raghava Menon that appeared in a supplement of THE HINDU sometime in the mid 1990s:

It was late Alain Danielou who told the then President S.Radhakrishnan when he was the Vice-Chancellor  of BHU " You cannot share Indian Classical Music the way you can share Western Classical Music. The Indian Classical music inheritance is wholly oral and too personal and ragas live momentarily coming to life only to die at once"

This seemed, even in those days, a profound observation in the particular context of sharing the art. For every one knows that this tradition of the raga has always been a solitary pursuit and was always meant to be so. This must be at least one among the many reasons why it has always been difficult to academise the art like the Julliard or the Santa Cecilia…………….. Ragas had always been timeless and without history. For there are no old ragas as there there are no old rivers. Always contemporary to the moment…..

Personally I am find it difficult to share RM's concern on the "digestion" of Indian musical instrument, much less the Indian classical systems. Western classical music will lose its bearings and identity once it attempts at the digestion process for the reason that notes and swaras are identical. This is almost impossible with the Carnatic idiom with its gamaka tradition. Late Jon Higgins remained an exception. Many enthusiasts who have been groomed in the Hindustani tradition too find it at odds with the flat swaras on which for them there cannot be aware of this. I think Ravi Shankar too was well aware of this predicament.

A sitar or any other Oriental instrument can become part of the Western musical ensemble, but I don't see any enthusiasm on that front... On the other hand we find many western instruments like violin – widely used in Carnatic idiom—clarinet, saxophone, mandolin, viola and of late guitar (though it is seldom used in Western classical forms) finding acceptance, particularly in south India.

It is believed that Baluswamy Deekshitar (great composer Muthuswamy Deekshitar's sibling) chanced to see a compact instrument with strings and bow ....."

January 2

Re: [media_monitor5] Swastika Brochure (American Jewish Committee, H Carpentier wonders:

I don't see why Hindus or anyone else would have to explain why they have the swastika as a sacred symbol (like many other civilisations) simply because Jews and some other communities had to suffer the political consequences of a particular modern European regime and ideology. Will people now have to apologise for using hammers and sickles in their profession in order to pacify the anti-communists?

Rajiv's comment:
The above comment seems to be of the following kind of proposition: 'Truth is with me, so why do I need to bother arguing about it with others?'... 

So, my response is: We must do this awareness work because we want to change peoples' thinking. Others with passion for their own causes also do the same. We cannot afford this lofty posture of "who cares?" Explaining one's history, philosophy, worldviews, positions, etc. is important for those who are world engaging (as opposed to world negating). If the above person really believed what he said, why would he be publisher of an international journal advocating certain policies?
As far as communist symbols are concerned, yes, IF THEIR SYMBOLS SUFFER REPUTATION THE WAY HINDU SYMBOLS DO, then one day they too would need to engage public opinion to try and explain them. The fact that they do not need to apologize, while we must explain ourselves, tells us that too many of our leaders have had the arrogant/lazy attitude of "do-nothing" on similar grounds as the above comment..."

January 2

FW: The Swastika controversy Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 09:51:18 -0800 From: mahakavius@... Subject: Fw: The Swastika controversy To: pcsi2000@... Vish:Here is the email I sent...

January 3
Swami Vivekananda becomes Masculine Nationalist
Venkat shares:
"The author is trying to connect recent sexual crimes to Hindu nationalism.

Taking the aggression out of masculinity
Sanjay Srivastava (Professor of Sociology and co-editor, Contributions to Indian Sociology , Institute of Economic Growth, New Delhi.)

"CELEBRATING MANHOOD:Swami Vivekananda’s masculine photographic-pose is revealing of how Indian nationalism encouraged a deeply masculine notion of modernity; religious customs, such as Karva Chauth (right), openly propagate male-worship."

"Swami Vivekananda’s masculine photographic-pose was only one aspect of the cult of masculinity encouraged and tolerated by nationalism."

Rest of his gobbledygook"

January 3

History of India recommendation
Please suggest a one or maximum two volume history of India ( in English) for a Westerner who knows very little of India. Thanks in advance!... 

Babubhai:

Glimpses of Bharatiya History

Dr. Rajendra Singh Kushwaha

Publish: Ocean Books Ltd.

New Delhi - 110002 , India

ISBN.  81-88322 -40 -7

Ravindra:

Portraits of a Nation, History of Ancient India by Kamlesh KaPur would be good text covering both the southern and Northern India.

  

Rakesh:

R C Majumdar - History of the freedom movement of India ( 3 books)

As India had not (has not?) been free for a long time this set goes back to the Moghul invasions I think, so covers hundreds of years of history ( I have not worked my way through it yet...)

Unfortunately due to the hijacking of Indian history, there are limited books in English that I would trust...

RMF Summary of a Single Discussion on Jati - March 17, 2011

There was an interesting debate on 'Tribe' and 'Caste' in March 2011 that is worth a more detailed summary. This post covers that discussion. Here's the link to the original thread:

Fw: Tribe and caste(jati) .The discussion was initiated by Dr. Vijaya Rajiva as a response to Dr. Koenraad Elst (probably continuing from a discussion earlier in March 2011). Not surprisingly, this is by far among the most vigorously debated issues in the early life of the forum that was devoted to topics covered in the book 'Breaking India'. Topics in this summary cover caste, race, Aryan Invasion Theory (debunked), Untouchability and its origins, birth-based discrimination, etc. " Tribe and jati are both endogamous, but the jati is integrated with the shreni (guild) and the tribe is not. Dear Dr. Elst, Strictly speaking those Hindus who believe that Hinduism has nothing to do with caste or untouchability are right. There was no untouchability in the Vedic period and the Jati(caste) is related to the development of Shreni (guild), which is a post Vedic phenomenon. How the socio-economic entity the Jati (caste) is related to the later Hindu scriptures is an interesting question and worth some investigation." This assertion was questioned by a commentator 'Rakesh': "I think this is a convenient argument, that undermines our credibility. We embrace the post-vedic, non-vedic Bhakti and Yoga, as they are positives. But when some one talks about a negative we run back to vedic times to say we are spotless on caste. A mature approach would be to accept that Hinduism is not perfect and so what ?" Rajiv Malhotra noted: "Chapter 5 of the book [BI] is on Lord Risley's work in the thriving discipline called Race Science in which Europeans were applying Dardins new theory of evolution of species to human races, and colonialists were specially interested in figuring out each of the races being ruled by them. Risley's personal hatred for Indians is well established and his very explicit work on Race Science. His was an ethnologist compiling field data to support these theories. His method consisted of measuring skulls .... ...None of this says anything about Vedic culture being perfect or otherwise. It merely says that these constructs we got used to are Eurocentric and were downloaded as Apps to colonize Indians." K. Venkat presented a very long and detailed response on an earlier post by Dr. Elst on 'Chandalas'. Only excerpts are included here and the reader is urged to read this in its entirety in the original thread: "On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:52 AM, Koenraad Elst wrote: "Chandella looks like it is derived from the related tribal ethnonyms Gond/Kond/Kandh. So does, probably, Chandâla. Ptolemy mentions the Kandaloi as an Indian tribe. In Wendy Doniger's Manu Smrti translation, Chandâla is given a literal interpretation, "the 'fierce' untouchables", which may well be how Manu himself understood the term." KV: There is a significant danger in making etymological guesses. Chandela and Chandala need not be, and are not, related in any way. The Chandella Rajputs who flourished towards the end of the first millennium would not have proudly advertised their name had it been associated with chandala. Just to give a counter example, *Chandola* is a surname often used by brahmins in the north. It would be silly to argue that this too is related to chandalas. The Chandalas are not an untouchable jati ... ...  One must look for asprsya or teenda (Tamil) for untouchability. One does not find them until the 12th century CE. Race, jati, and tribe are all inter-related. They are all rooted in genetics and that is why one finds unique funerary and wedding rites, culinary customs, and dialect often related with each of these constructs.... ...  If you want to find a bone marrow or heart or tissue donor, your highest likelihood of success is within your own jati. All of these underscore the need for a reasonable discussion on jati unconstrained by western prejudices and ignorance... " ... Untouchability is a late entrant into Hindu society. It was the result of colonization. But the single most factor (there are others --- but later on that) that sustained untouchability is the lack of hygiene. As some jatis fell into economic despair as a result of colonial subjugation they also slowly fell into unhygienic ways. In the pre-modern world, Hindus shared common wells for bathing etc so hygiene was paramount. A jati that did not live up to the social standards of hygiene were treated as untouchables. This ensured that India did not suffer epidemics like Europe did. So, untouchability is not some "upper caste" ploy against "lower castes." It was a natural social defense against epidemics... ... Sri Narayana Guru, the Ezhava-born Hindu saint, insisted on the need for his followers to remain very hygienic. Ezhavas followed his advice. I understand the need to let go western constructs on race and caste and support articulating these form the Hindu point of view. My only caution is that we do not throw science out in the process. " Karigar cautions against western 1:1 mapping of Indic categories:  "I'd submit that the Indic categories (Jaati, Varna, kula, gotra, et al) and Western categories ( race, tribe, 'caste', 'ethnic group') may have certain strong correspondences, that may be, but it is certainly no One-on-One. Much overlaps, & even more does not. The trajectories of Indian civilization/society have enough uniqueness to warrant this." N.S shares some interesting empirical/statistical results from genetic studies: " ... scanning significant chunks of the genome (not just one chromosome) has now become quite affordable and some hobbyists (who are technically well equipped) are doing selective admixture analyses. One such effort (by a hobbyist, Zack Ajmal) is http://www.harappadna.org/ and you can see the results for the first 50 participants (I am #41). Essentially every single person who is Indian (or Bangladeshi and perhaps most Pakistanis), regardless of caste weighs most on the "south-asian" component (which is presumably an amalgamation of ancient south and north indian components going back tens of thousands of years). Every single person who is clearly not Indian (eg. Iranian or Iraqi) does not load much on the southasian component. The nonIndians are easily distinguishable from the Indians (defining an Indian as one with 2 Indian parents)..." BNA recommends a book: "Dear SriRam - Your observation is very good. One must read the book "Journey of Man" by Spencer Wells - A National Geographic research work. This is available in India also and in Amazon. He has studied all races around the world ..." NS responds to one of BNA's assertions: "... Hi Bala, Your characterization of single male line shared by Indians is likely incorrect as are the observation re female lines and relevance of the Puranas reference; there is no reason to restrict ancestry analysis to the Y chromosome (for the male line) or mitochondrial DNA (female line). It is very tempting to project our current belief systems onto emerging data which really don't need to have any respect for them a priori. That Puranas are a respected and important part of our traditions does not make them an all purpose oracle.... "  Seshadri presents a different point of view: "I cannot understand this preoccupation with genome based identity fixing. Is it eugenics in its modern form. Or scientific Racism. The socalled research methods and sampling strategies and selectivity in assumptions and paradigms - all are intractable.... " NS responded to Seshadri with: "...   I do not see how knowing the facts about human evolution as best as current day science allows us is equivalent to endorsing eugenics. The genie is loose and there is no putting it back in the bottle. I think some basic forms of eugenics are universally endorsed by almost every one as when the fetus is scanned for genetic defects. I think it is safe to predict that less than 100 years from now, we'll have all sorts of medical procedures that operate via gene modifications ..." At this point in the thread, Dr Koenraad Elst commented on the origin of the word 'Arya' leading to five responses. We will summarize this sub-thread before returning to the original topic. Here is the link to the original sub-thread: " Someone here voiced the widespread opinion that "Arya" only means "noble". I venture to differ. While the term had no racial ("Nordic") or linguistic ("Indo-European") meaning, it did originally have an ethnic meaning. On this, invasionist linguist JP Mallory and anti-invasionist historian Shrikant Talageri agree. At least, it has a relative ethnic meaning, not designating a particular nation, but being used by several Indo-European nations (viz. Anatolians, Iranians and Paurava Indians) in the sense of "compatriot", "one of us". This term, in India, then evolved to "one who shares the civilizational norms of the Vedic Paurava tribes", "Veda-abiding", "civilized". And thence "noble"." Rajiv Malhotra added: "The famous "Four Noble Truths" that define Buddhism are called the Four Arya Truths in the original Sanskrit. Clearly, Buddha did not refer to the truths of a specific race. His further description of what these truths consist of has nothing to do race at all. Hence, I reject that Arya = race. Many Sanskrit terms are very contextual in meaning. Hence a literal translation into one normative meaning (a common tendency among Westerners) is reductionist " N. S. Rajaram spoke about South Indian practices: "It [Arya] was and still is used by South Indian groups identifying oneself as 'civilized'. Most recently, 'eedigaas' a community traditionally associated with harvesting toddy from palm trees changed their designation to 'arya eedigaas'. Of course Chettiars call themselves Arya Vaishyas. " Come added: "Throughout the world, many people if not most have called themselves "the best" in their respective languages (.i.e the Franks, the Ewins, the Heruli in the West, the Han in China etc...) to affirm their distinctiveness and superiority over their neighbours. That can hardly be equated to race..." Karigar noted: " As the book clearly sees, & shows it's readers, the "aryan" issue currently is a swampy one where discussions can just get bogged down, as some discussions here are..." This concludes the summary on the "Arya" subthread and return to the main topic on Tribe/Jati/Caste.   Koenraad Est commented on Israeli genetic studies: "The one country and community way ahead of everyone else is Israel and the Jews. Genetic data have been used to prove that Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Oriental Jews are biologically much closer related to one another than to their respective Central/East-European, West-Mediterranean and Arab neighbours. Less conveniently, these also show that the Palestinians are likewise close relatives, and the closest are the Kurds, ... ... In evolutionary psychology, we see the beginnings of a comeback of genetic explanations of caste coupled with IQ. Richard Lynn & Tatu Vanhanen in *IQ and the Wealth of Nations*, Michael H. Hart in *Understanding Human History* and Steve Sailer in his blog have claimed that the average IQ of Indians is quite low, like that of Arabs, higher than Africans but lower than Europeans and much lower than the IQ champions, Ashkenazi Jews and Northeast-Asians(Hitler disliked IQ tests because Jews came out too smart) .. Chitra responded to Elst: " Dr. Elst, I do enjoy your posts, even on the occasions when I disagree.  In this case it appears you are describing a line of thinking , not saying that you necessarily buy into it.  Still, this frog would like to briefly share the view from her personal lily-pad. As the parent of a now young adult daughter with autism, my personal experience confirms the following : 1. Yes, IQ means something. It ranks people on their ability to perform certain tests.  But it is no more an assurance of what people can do with it than having two arms and all one's fingers intact is a guarantee of becoming a future concert pianist.  The human is the most variable variable on the planet -- and each human is affected in turn by the humans surrounding him/her.  Natural endowments can be shaped for the better or worse by values, circumstances, economic hardship, emotional setbacks... "  Aravindan Neelakandan added: "'Breaking India', in its Appendix-A, has a comprehensive overview of how consistently attempts were made to fabricate a scientific authenticity to the racial framework that colonial milieu has evolved. It was interesting to see that the Western scholars often with limited data would come out with the conclusion that the foreign Aryans model has been upheld. But a larger and more detailed study of the population by Indian scholars proved the initial study wrong. But the scientific rebuttal by Indian scholars did not get the same media lime light that the initial limited unscientific study by western scholars... ....Jatis were dynamically moving in and out of the Varna space due to various socio-political, economic reasons... ...The book makes it clear that it is for social justice and affirmative action for the betterment of the marginalized sections of society. It points that the quicker we ease out the faultlines in our society with justice and through democratic means the better.... " Rina Mukherji comments on the origins of caste-based discrimination (in areas north of South India): "I do not know much about the dalits of southern India. But there are several experts who believe that discrimination along caste lines arose when Hindus who had converted to Buddhism came back into the Hindu fold. In eastern and northern India, Brahmins who returned back into Hinduism were put to work on funerary rites; and to this day, other Brahmins generally do not intermarry with them..." Venkat provides some stunning statistics: "1. The per capita crime rate against the Harijans is one fifteenth the per capita crime rate against non-Harijans. Contrast this with the apartheid prevalent against the blacks in America's churches or with the fact that one in nine black men in the age group of 25-35 is incarcerated ... Elst gave a good example of how genetic data has been used to almost eliminate Tay-Sachs among the Jews...  .... Aravindan is correct that each jati arose from the original tribal organization but the inference is that this makes jatis biological constructs. His other statement, drawing upon anthropological data, that some of the Harijans may have been priestly jatis who might have fallen due to real or imagined transgressions is well supported by traditions from these own jatis... ... Now to the controversy. It is true that nurture is as important as nature, but it is undeniable that genetics predisposes you with certain aptitudes... .... Yes, genetic data debunks Aryan invasion circa 1500-1900 BCE. But does it negate or support the possibility of Aryan invasion in an earlier period say 3000 BCE?"  Aravidan Neelakandan specifically responds to K. Venkat's important question on AIT in an earlier time period: "Yes. very definitely it does debunk 'Aryan Invasion' hypothesis even if its placed at 3000 or even 5000 BCE. Again I refer to Appendix-A of the book The study I am referring to for this was done in 2009 (published in Nature:) At the outset the paper seems to support Aryan Invasion model. And in fact a report in Times of India declared that this study supported racial basis of caste and linked it to 2009 session of the UN Human Rights Council at Geneva. However when the authors contacted one of the scientists involved in the project and sought details we were surprised. The ANI (Ancient North Indian) and ASI (Asian South Indian) genetic differences belong to what anthropologists call deep time... " ... Let me quote the words of one of the author of the 'Nature' paper here in full: "Our paper basically discards Aryan theory...." " Chitra goes to Venkat's post and questions him on his statement of Hygiene of certain Jatis: ".. Just curious -- is this something you came up with or is there some basis for this line of thinking?  How does one make a sweeping conclusion that a jati AS A WHOLE lacks a sense of hygiene and is therefore justifiably marginalized?  I ask because I know a fair amount of slobs both female and male who belong to my "caste" and scrupulous neatniks who do not..." Venkat responds to Chitra with two types of evidence to support his statement: " There are clear and unmistakeable references on which I made my inference. But one need not even go into literature and epigraphy and instead make observations on the ground. For example, ... ... Now to a few textual references that support my argument: [references include Manickavasakar, Abbe Dubois, Pawar, and Ziegenbalg] ... I did not say untouchability is justified today. But I would urge every member to look into the causative factors instead of emotionally blaming the so called upper castes. In the past, everyone shared public bathing places etc so hygiene was important. If a jati was not adhering to hygienic standards, its members posed a significant danger to spreading germs and epidemics to others. So, they were avoided. But I never said lack of hygiene was the only factor. There are clearly other factors that led to the ostracizing of an entire jati...

"

... <Chitra's followup question> Is it conceivable that a jati that was marginalized for whatever reason and denied full participation in the mainstream would fall into economic difficulties that made the same level of hygiene difficult?

V: Very much yes. For example, the level of hygiene in refugee camps is appalling even though the same jatis had led a very hygienic existence earlier ...
 ... [In response to Chitra summoning Oscar Wilde]

Oscar Wilde summed up the human condition thus:

"All men are born equal -- but some are more equal than others."

V: Oscar Wilde can sometimes be witty but he is plain wrong and ignorant in this case. Bluntly put, all men are not born equal. This is a phony claim. We are all born with varying capabilities. Hinduism teaches that regardless of such differences everyone deserves to be treated with dignity....

... Since we are discussing untouchability here, please show me that it existed in the pre-Islamic period in Hindu society. We cannot sustain pet theories that have no basis in facts. If you look at inscriptions, the Paraiyah jati is a very dominant jati until the 13th century yet subsequently they fall into untouchability under colonial rule. This is why I will expect that those who claim that Hindu society is guilty of discriminating adduce proof for their beliefs... "

Aravindan Neelakandan commented on one of K.Venkat's references:
"I am afraid KV has misinterpreted the statement of Manichavasakar. This is a self-depreciating poetic statement which can not be taken as a proof of a 'report' of 'the head of the Pulaiya being infested with lice. Here is my informal translation of the statement in its context: .."

Aravindan Neelakandan also mentioned:
"Untouchable is a social space. Any community relegated to that space due to socio-political dynamics will naturally become unhygienic. So to argue untouchability is a result of hygienic factors (or even to argue that hygiene is one of the factors leading to untouchability) is a circular argument.

During the course of the research for this book we came across many genuine Dalit leaders who toil for their community. They are well aware of how forces from the West lure their leadership. They have seen their counterparts given air flights and international forums when they become willing partners in the game. Yet they have kept themselves away. But even these Dalit leaders have a strong grievance and doubt against us. To gain their confidence we had to have many sessions of heart to heart talks. We need to look at history and their notions of why they became untouchables from their point of view. We have attempted that in this book [Breaking India] ..."

Venkat further noted:
"... I want to make a clear distinction between jatis that fell into untouchability and jatis that faced the hostility of the rest of Hindu society. Only a very few jatis among the SC have ever been untouchable. Some of the most powerful jatis such as the Mahar were not untouchable but were seen by Hindu society with hostile eyes. One should ask why..."  

The thread ends with a commentator looking for textual references to Venkat's statement on Mahars.

RMF Summary: Week of March 7-14, 2011

March 7

Indian Christian lashes against 'breaking India' activities by Church This long post has 2 items. PART I is a letter by an IndianChristian activist against the Church's politics of the kind that are breakingIndian communities by... March 8 Madurai book club I wish to thank Suri for the superb arrangement for launching the book "Breaking India" in Madurai. This was the major and unique function apart from... Chennai launch featured in Arsha Vidya Newsletter Chennai launch of Breaking India is featured in the February issue of the Arsha Vidya newsletter Comment by Prof Shiva Bajpai (Professor Emeritus at the California State University of Northridge. Co-author of, "A Historical Atlas of South Asia.")  "This is an impressive work based on solid and thorough research on the major theme, Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines. Your treatment of the subject is both scholarly and exhaustive as well as dispassionate. The book is indeed revelatory  because there is no other authentic account of how the global nexus of anti-India agencies and their Indian agents have undermined the unity of a democratic India ... Koenraad Elst, the distinguished scholar comments: Dear listfolk,   >Durgavati was born in Chandella clan of the Rajputs from and she was married in a Raj-Gond family. There is a theory that the Raj-Gonds are descendants of Rajputs who intermarried among Gonds. There is another theory that claims that the Chandellas were derived from the Gonds, the marriage of Durgavati is cited in support of this thesis. < Chandella looks like it is derived from the related tribal ethnonyms Gond/Kond/Kandh. So does, probably, Chandâla. Ptolemy mentions the Kandaloi as an Indian tribe. In Wendy Doniger's Manu Smrti translation, Chandâla is given a literal interpretation, "the 'fierce' untouchables", which may well be how Manu himself understood the term. But that would be folk etymology, overlaid on a purely ethnic term such as Kand/Kandaloi. The name Chandâla is mentioned in the Chandogya Up.,.. March 8 Re: tribe and caste (jati) It is a question of interest as to when and why Untouchability arose. And the question of the relationship of Jati to Varna. In my article 'Gandhiji was right... March 8 Madurai disscusion of the book: March 6. Book Readers' Club at Madurai had arranged for an introductory lecture on 'Breaking India' book at Arvind Eye Hospital auditorium... March 9 US tops Rs 31,000cr-donation list (2006-09) [The book has an appendix on this data and examines the activities of the westernn nexus and Indian recipients. The actual sums are much larger.] SHOCKING! A large portion of this money comes from organizations with vested interests in India, as mentioned in BI (e.g. church-based proselytizing orgs) 31K crores in Rupees at the current (2012) exchange rate is about $6.2 Billion using 2009 exchange rate of 37Rs/$, this comes out to about $8.3 Billion. Of this, about 1/3 or about $2Billion comes from the US alone. March 9 Ashani Sanket Another example of an organization meddling in internal Indian affairs. so much for sovereignty. (original news link was broken. I've googled and updated with live link) March 9 No quota benefits after conversion: High Court No quota benefits after conversion... March 9 Re: Tribe and caaste (jati) Dear Dr. Elst, Here is the train of thought: Both tribes and Jati were endogamous, but the Jati was linked to the economic unit of the shreni(guild). Jati... March 10 Re: N.S. Rajaram on BREAKING INDIA by Malhotra and Neelakandan Distinguished scholar N.S. Rajaram notes: The Chicago based NEWSGRAM carried my article on the book Breaking India by Rajiv Malhotra and Aravindan Neelkandan. It can be found here. March 10 Plight of scavenger dalit communities Vijay Rajiva adds: Below is a relevant account of the position of the Bhangis. You may kindly read the attached pdf on present Dalit (Scavengers). Here's the dostoc link. March 10 N.S. Rajaram's press statement *March 11, 2011* ** Here is an advance copy of the statement being released to the media at 10:00 AM today (March 11). Here is an advance copy of the statement being released to the media at 10:00 AM today (March 11). The book Breaking India will also be presented at the meet. The opinions given below are my own though I have consulted the book. I take full reponsibility [sic] for it.  - N.S. Rajaram March 11, 2011: Statement to the media Meeting on conversions: Summary of Dr Navaratna Rajaram’s presentation: 1.       Christian churches and their affiliated organizations must be seen as multinational socio-political entities that have no spiritual or even religious content. 2.       Their officials like bishops, archbishops, etc are not spiritual leaders but bureaucrats appointed by their masters like the Vatican, Church of England, etc. They can call themselves His Holiness, but they are no more than appointed representatives of foreign multinational corporations.... March 11 Is there a gene that prevent us from falling apart even as we quarrel Link. Just as no Hindi movie can survive without a Comic Relief so no Indian discussion group can survive without some Intellectual Relief...   March 12 Dalit Freedom Network Below is an excerpt from "Breaking India" (pages 220 to 222) pertaining to Dalit Freedom Network (DFN): [BEGIN EXCERPT]: Dalit Freedom Network, based in Colorado, USA, is an example of a West-run organization that professes to champion Indian Dalit emancipation through policy advocacy in the power centers of the USA. March 13 Re; Tribe and caste (jati) N. S. Rajaram comments:  I agree wholeheartedly with Shri Aravindan Neelakandan's view that we should move quickly and resolutely to remove any lingering injustices towards the Dalits. Much has already been done by GOI, individuals, NGOs and the nationalist organisations. More can be done. We have to do it because it is our Dharma, not because the EU or other busy bodies are trying to tell us what is ethical behaviour... March 13 Arya Koenraad Elst comments: The use of Arya cognates in Hittite and Lycian (Anatolian) in the sense of compatriot, fellow citizen is given in standard textbooks of Indo-European linguistics, such as JP Mallory, and in the On-line Etymological Dictionary http://www.etymonline.com/ The same in Iranian is beyond dispute. Iran <= Airyanam Khshathra. In 2006, Tajikistan hosted the UNESCO-sponsored World Aryan Fair, or so, where Aryan in effect meant Iranian,...   Blogger's note (November 2012): The contributions from noted Indian scholars (aside from the authors of 'Breaking India' themselves) like NS Rajaram, Koenraad Elst, Vijay Rajiva, among others, to the initial  RMF debates are outstanding, and establish a certain level of rigor and burden of proof in the discussions apart from not shying away from naming some of the big problems that confront Hindu society in India, i.e. Dalit emancipation, and made a strong case (both based on Hindu texts as well as empirical evidence) for bringing them back into the Hindu fold, if its not too late ....