RMF Summary: Week of February 3 - 9, 2013

The forum turned two! Congratulations to all participants and thanks to Rajiv ji
 
February 4 (continuing discussion from February 3)
''We need to study western ‘White’ culture on our own terms'

Dear Rajiv-ji, This refers to your recent blog post titled *'**' We need to study western ‘White’ culture on our own terms' ... Manish responds to a previous comment: "... Hindus, IMHO, have only two options at the current juncture in our history --- congregate or perish ! Stark, simple. It is only at these congregations that we shall be able to assert our collective identity with full confidence. ....If it means changing our millenia old habit of non-congregation, then we must change that habit. It has been done --- by the Arya Samajis, for instance. It won't be easy, for sure, but giving up is not an option. Btw, you have highlighted a very interesting difference b/w the Hindu communities of Canada and US..." Rajiv comment: "But this also requires competent, selfless leadership. Otherwise the "congregation", is misled as we often find today. The leadership job description demands solid knowledge of the global discourse kurukshetra, which I must say very, very few leaders have. They are too busy inside the organization playing personal politics to impress and climb up. Most individuals I know lack the ability to do concentrated intellectual work over a long term to produce breakthrough results. .... they are tamasic-rajasic combo. Just look at some recent fund raising campaigns going on - sucking in millions of dollars of the community with hype and promises, but these leaders have zero experience to actually do anything like this. They wasted their lives in useless pursuits and back slapping each other with mutual congratulations. Now in their late years they are desperate to show some result. So its easy for them to appropriate some slogans, one liners, slick Powerpoints. But that is hollow. In other words, our community lacks a solid leadership training institution. I mean at the level of IIMs where they could learn the skills to be on the world stage representing dharma."  Anila shares an Indo-Canadian perspective: ".... I must indicate that while America does operate more like a melting pot and Canada is more like a "mosaic" there is still no comparison to the level of self-confidence and strength of identity seen in other immigrant cultures, especially amongst us second generation youngsters born here in North America. Growing up in Canada, in spite of the occasional cultural shows, festivals and get-togethers with fellow Indian families that I attended, there was a sense of isolation from the friends I had in school and the manner in which they lived their lives. In my younger years, I often found myself (and many youth) feeling that the expectations of Indian standards of culture, tradition and morality were being imposed upon us and alienating us from the remaining youngsters. It took me some years of growth to finally learn what it was that my parents were trying to teach me, and the realization came most powerfully when I finally engaged with peers who were proud of their culture (select students from India or students who were brought up here but were lucky enough to have been taught from a young age about the details of culture history). ....it is also important to create spaces for youth to learn about their past, learn about their religious background and also be given the freedom to debate issues with one another. ...This freedom to question, to understand all aspects of life on this planet by seeking truth, is the very essence of Hindu philosophy (and I will go so far as to indicate that it is not as powerfully prescribed in other cultures or religions). ....Simply being in a community with families whose parents were from the same motherland is not enough to inspire pride and true understanding of culture. It is important that youngsters learn the basics of Hindu philosophy, and learn their history, so that they can teach the next generations of our diaspora and be proud of who they are in spite of the fact they are not like the others they interact with daily. And from what I am seeing more and more, the need for this kind of education lies not only here, but also in India....."  February 3 Prashanth: "Hi Was wondering if the group has come across this piece of news about our national security advisor's assertion in Munich. I am just wondering if Rajivji's influence is hitting South Block already Rajiv comment: He was at the closed door meeting at Indian International Center where they discussed "Breaking India", chaired by former Foreign Secretary, Kanwal Sibal. BTW, the new jacket of BI has the endorsement by Kanwal Sibal which is a very important statement. See: http://www.breakingindia.com/new-book-cover/"  Srinath says: "... Abrahamic religions eliminate competition from native (non history centric) spiritualities by digesting them as well - when genocide is either impractical or the value added by digesting the prey is higher than its total elimination.  Even their violent methods are a brute form of digestion .... Digestion infuses new life and ideas into a parasitic host which is non self-sustaining and over time would have collapsed under its own weight of dogma - existence of other creative civilizations allow the conflict to be externalized, offering outlets for frustrations and channelizing rebellious tendencies towards conquest (death in battle etc. incentivized by core requirements of host survival/expansion). "  [egroup commentators react to Rajiv's MSNBC discussion] February 4 Recording of my MSNBC television interview Vish: While all around congratulations are in order, I look forward to the day when I can watch RM make it into a Dinesh D'Souza or a Bill Moyer panel on National TV. ... I don't know this for a fact, but I wonder if Moyer would ever constitute a panel that might share something like"Now, lets ask what our Hindus or Buddhists or Sikh friends might have to say about this?" Girish: Great ! You cleared mentioned the reason why Bobby converted..... Gopal: ....fantastic to see you putting forward the perspective so lucidly. That is the need today.A Hindu voice on mainstream media. A voice that is clear, that is balanced, that holds itself on firm ground and is not lost in the confusion of the society. The choice of words are profound and deep, for example, "Every thing about Jindal is white except the color of his skin"  You stood as one amongst equals on national TV. ...  On your next trip to Toronto we should get you onto "The agenda" by Steve Paikin. That is one the intellectually strong programme's on Canadian networks. Kushal: ...a great sense of pride for me to see you there. you made some vital points. February 4 Germany scholar is in Chennai for doing interviews on BI I received the following email. Those in Chennai might want to follow up with the individual directly and then let us know what happens. Note his dravidian interests. Only some competent persons should do this. As preparation, study his research goals, who else he is meeting, his professor's past publications, etc. My name is Bjorn [] and I am a research assistant and PhD student [] at the Institute [] in Germany. In order to collect data for a research project on ‘westernization’ as one aspect of globalization I am going to interview representatives of political, especially dravidian, parties in Chennai. I am interested in Tamil Nadu's party’s and party member’s personal opinions about all kinds of influences western countries have on India in general and Tamil Nadu in particular. Because your book Breaking India is currently a very inspiring source for my view on the Dravidian movement .."  February 5 subra shares: "Kareem Abdul Jabbar, NBA legend and African American, reverses the gaze, analyzes western monoculture, and encounters air-resistance..." February 6 Prashanth posts: God Loves Uganda" is a film that was part of the official selection of the prestigious sundance film festival. "God Loves Uganda explores the role of the American evangelical movement in Uganda, where American missionaries have been credited with both creating schools and hospitals and promoting dangerous religious bigotry. ...attempt the radical task of eliminating "sexual sin" and converting Ugandans to fundamentalist Christianity." February 7 One of the UTurn patterns: An example Rajiv Malhotra posts: "One of several patterns of Uturns is when the scholar takes Hindu contributions to the West, and reclassifies them as "Asian" or something broader, in order to dilute the Hindu origins. Example: In the mid 1990s, Infinity Foundation gave a grant to a Western scholar of Hinduism who specializes in music. His proposal was to travel to European museums and see if the oldest musical instruments in Europe were of Indian origin or had been influenced from India. He was to use this physical evidence combined with text based evidence that early European music was influenced by the raga, and Indian instruments influenced European ones. We gave this grant with great enthusiasm. But then nothing came out of it since almost 2 decades. Recently I got the following disappointing status: "After submitting the project several times for publication, it has been rejected by many good publishers on various grounds. I always try to get it into a "university press" if possible. I have since reworked the concept into a broader spectrum of "Indo-Iranian Contributions or Influences on the West" which has now some prospective takers.  The new framework takes us back to Zoroastrianism's influence on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as the very pronounced musical influences (and chant) upon all three, etc. ...." Most of our "dharma" activists dishing out grants would be awestruck to hear him play sitar, impressed that he gives lectures on Indian music at prestigious places. It depends upon how high you raise the standard. I find this shift from Indian to Indo-Iranian unacceptable. In other words, raga gets classified somehow as Zoroastrian and hence its spread to the West is easier to sell to publishers. I have written by disappointment quite candidly." Gene posts: "You could change the world if you were to present the Hindu Concept of Kundalini to America in strictly scientific terms.  One strong supporter ... Dr. Karan Singh, M.P. He would be 100% behind you in this cause." Rajiv comment: No. Its already been highly digested precisely because of these so-called "scientific" terms. The tendency has been to use the pretext of science to de-contextualize the categories, and thus prepare them to get re-contextualized (i.e. digested). That's what I am exposing in my work on digestion. Regarding Dr. Karan Singh: I have known him personally and admire many qualities in him. But political ambitions turns into political correctness and this can compromise a person's ability to take a strong stand for dharma. To be specific: Disappointed at the way under his watch Auroville has been turned over to leaders who are rapidly facilitating it to get digested into the belly of Ken Wilber via various suction mechanisms at work there." tvikhanas responds:  "I have noticed this pattern several times too, from mathematics to yoga. If West wants to deny precise credit, all it has to do is claim in a very reasonable and enlightened manner that cultures x, y, z apart from India too had these ideas in one form or the other. The implication would be there is nothing special in India's discovery and West can rightly claim it is "humanity's" discovery. We see this happening big time when it is claimed that native Americans had "spirituality", Africans had "spirituality", Chinese Taoists had "spirituality" etc. It goes without saying that the superior whites also had "spirituality" and Indian "spirituality" is up for grabs without due acknowledgement. The same is happening when Yogis are lumped with shamans/medicine men, "higher consciousness" is bandied about as if it is an obvious thing that every one, including the West, knew about. Huxley's Perennial Philosophy is the classic example of this strategy to appropriate Indic thought/techniques. But when it comes to West's discoveries the standards for drawing comparisons suddenly become very stringent. This "everyone in every age had it" has the effect of taking Indians away from their authentic tradition to a low grade mishmash created by third rate academic charlatans. Ground fact is that there is simply no comparison between Indic traditions and any other culture. The "spirituality" label, while convenient in certain contexts, can hardly do justice to the reality." Rajiv comment: Well said. February 7 infinitestars shares: .....Good talk by Mr Jay Lakhani but he also seem to be having the same problem like many hindus have ie everything is the same. Please watch this video esp between 34:40----37:25 February 8 Is there a secular ayurveda: Cultural Issues in Bringing Ayurveda to Venkat shares: A highly relevant article as the author discusses the perils of secular ayurveda... The author concludes that "Sanskritization and Inculturation must go hand in hand, as we read both the text of the Ayurvedic classics, our only source of authority and authenticity, and the text of the current life situation." Introduction Transplanting Ayurveda to the West raises a number of significant cutural issues. An ancient, indigenous indian art, Ayurveda has evolved within a specific cultural and religious milieu. The cultural context of a country such as the USA is in many ways the polar opposite of this milieu. How can we transplant Ayurveda to this culture without doing violence either to the integrity of the teachings or to the cultural bias of our students and patients? In this paper, rather than attempting to provide answers, we will highlight some of the issues as well as suggesting a conceptual frame within which to understand the ways in which we may choose to make this adaptation. What Happens When Cultures Meet? Jesuit missionaries, engaged for the last four hundred years in bringing Catholicism to different lands, have described two different dynamics at play in the meeting of cultures.The first is Inculturation...."

Debate: Holy Spirit is not the same as Shakti or Kundalini

This riveting discussion surrounding a debate on: Shakti and Kundalini and its erroneous equivalence to 'Holy spirit', took place in June-July 2011. This was an online debate between Rajiv Malhotra and Francis Clooney, a Jesuit Catholic priest and a professor of Harvard, who is also knowledgeable about Hindu texts and visits India frequently. This debate started off well enough before Clooney suddenly dropped out of the debate and did not return despite Rajiv's request.[He's not the first and probably will not be the last person to debate Rajiv and suddenly vacate the stage]. We carry both sides of the debate and summarize impressions from RMF contributors. 

Some key reasons why very important voices of Christianity have stealthily appropriated fundamental concepts of Hinduism rather than openly borrow from it, become apparent after you read this thread.

On Beliefnet.com: 'Holy Spirit is not the same as Shakti or Kundalini

This is an important thread and will be excerpted in depth in this post that was initiated by a post by Rajiv Malhotra on this subject in beliefnet.com 
Rajiv's article is typically well-researched and factual, and ideally, must be read in full before following the rest of the discussion. Only the concluding remarks from his article in Beliefnet is carried here.

"... Many Westerners have appropriated aspects of the Hindu Goddess to address issues within Christianity, in particular its patriarchy, institutions, weak ecological base and absence of yoga. While this is laudable, great care must be taken that core Hindu notions such as Shakti are not imported as mere "add-ons." Dissecting the tradition into separate parts and digesting them selectively distorts the source. Shakti cannot be domesticated.

The authentic acceptance of Shakti and kundalini by Christians is much more daunting and would entail rejecting centuries of Church inquisition against pluralistic manifestations of the divine. It would involve reinventing Christianity with the Goddess accessible directly as the Supreme Being. This would rekindle memories of paganism, polytheism and chaos. "

We begin by carrying the opening remarks of Rajiv nearly intact:
"... It refutes the trend among many westerners whose tantra guru led them to shakti/kundalini experience, but who later want to abandon dharma and re-interpret it as something within Judeo-Christianity. Many gurus started to sell to such followers the notion that shakti/kundalini = Holy Spirit of Christianity. This means you can pluck what you need from Hinduism, reject the source, and in the process boost Christianity's appeal. Hinduism ends up in a museum just like the old pagan religions from which many "useful" things got appropriated by Christianity before those faiths got destroyed brutally.

An entirely new Christian theology has emerged that emphasizes Holy Spirit using this appropriation from Hinduism. It started among a fringe element of speculative thinkers who simultaneously had a guru. But it has penetrated into the Christian mainstream theologians gradually. Along the way, the champions of this wave have discarded Hinduism ever more forcefully and reinvented a whole new approach to seeing the Bible and the feminine in it.

This article is a summary of a longer argument that appears in my forthcoming book this fall. I hope gurus will stop selling out, as that distorts our tradition while also misinforming westerners who later suffer internal conflicts."

Ram Ohri comments:
"...Very few among them have any knowledge about 'dharma', and most of them are ignorant about the fate which is likely to befall the next generation of Hindus. In that sense they are followers of 'Charvak' believing in enjoying life to the
last dreg."

Rajiv Malhotra adds:
"....Francis Clooney (a Harvard Prof. and a Jesuit theologian) in direct response to my blog ... has called for an open discussion on the subject. I have posted a comment under his article accepting his challenging and asking him to arrange a level forum. I have also written to America Magazine to see if they wish to carry this debate at their site.

I hope such a debate materializes as it would help both traditions to clear the mis-perceptions that are out there..." [Here are the links to Rajiv's blog, and  Francis Clooney's article

Sutapas shares findings:
"Some interesting info on the origins of Christian ‘Demonology’ in Origen which I was just editing in one of my chapters. May be of interest in your debate.

I’ve also pasted a paragraph on William Blake’s views on such energies within us [not mentioned here is that Blake also read first English translation of Bhagavad Gita by Williams in 1785].

Rather like Emmanuel Swedenborg, J.H.M. Whiteman in his final book Universal Theology focuses on mystical encounters with ‘Co-Minds’, semi-autonomous elements of the complex nexus making up our individual psyches. Many Biblical references to groups, tribes, angels etc. actually refer to such perennial mystical realizations as in the Fathers and Relatives of the Vedas and Upanishads [UT]. These Co-Minds correspond to Jung’s autonomous ‘complexes’ which were called ‘demons’ by the early Church [P&M].

Origen, the first major Christian thinker studied under the same Ammonias Saccas who taught the great Plotinus [HC]. Von Franz tells us that Origen wrote that each of us is not One but Many. As long as we are sinners we have in us ‘herds of sheep’ and ‘birds of heaven’. These need to be integrated through the influence of Christ [P&M]. The role of ‘Christ’ here parallels the role of the so-called ‘Inner Self Helper’ in modern psychiatric studies of dissociative disorders which again seems equivalent to the Inner Light [O/OM].  Von Franz claims that the Monotheism of the Old Testament and the idea of Christ being the One Man required believers to confront the inner demons and animal souls....

... Freud actually secularized Jewish mysticism, stripping it of supernatural elements in his totally absurd but influential ‘Psychoanalysis’ [DB/RM] which posed fraudulently as a scientific psychology (see Chapter 5). Yahweh may be ‘ethical’ but his ethical code is that of a tribal wargod advocating genocide, hatred of outsiders, misogyny and countless acts of jealousy and violent rage! In the Gospel of John, Chapter 8 Jesus is said to have told his fellow Jews [UT]: You are of your father the devil ...He was a murderer from the beginning...and there is no truth in him.

In his essay, What India can Teach Us, Jung wrote that unlike the West, India had followed the other way of civilizing Man, the way without suppression, without violence. India embraced the whole man from top to bottom [JotE]..."

 Ravi shares his comments on Clooney's article:

" .. my supporting comment ..."

Chitra notes:
"What an excellent development. Fortunately, he doesnt seem like another Pat Robertson. I hope it happens, and that it remains cordial."

Rajiv's response:
"Clooney is extremely well educated in Hindu texts, teaches it with great passion and spends extensive visits for research in India. On a theoretical level he probably has more knowledge of Hinduism than most "activists" I come across. We
have shared the podium at Waves and we both felt that there ought to be more time to continue such conversations. That plenary event was at the invitation of Prof. Bal Ram Singh a few years ago and the audience felt good about it. These
are opportunities to educate our own people who tend to function very naively.

To compare Clooney with Pat Robertson is silly. I anticipate Clooney to bring strong arguments on how shakti-like principles might be found within Christianity. There is a discipline within Christian theology called Pneumatology, which is specifically the study of Holy Spirit. It has been around for centuries. Today's pneumatologists are sneaking in shakti-like principles (i.e. appropriations) sometimes after explicit comparisons with shakti and then gradually erasing these and claiming to be doing christian theology...

... Most members here probably dont know that Protestant theologians DO NOT want to appropriate Hindu philosophy and their approach is to reject it outright it. Catholicism is different, and its theologians have been busy appropriating for a century and i have a book planned for 2012 just on that issue...

... Clooney like all Jesuits is a Catholic theologian, a very
important one in the world today. Pat Robertson is a Protestant evangelist, and not a theologian at all. "

...This is why Clooney is taking my very brief blog on Holy Spirit so seriously. If left unchallenged, it could enable me to educate Hindus on this issue. That would make it tougher for Catholic theologians to do this appropriation.

I will constantly have to educate our folks on what the game board looks like, for they are too inbred and lack the basic knowledge to engage Christianity as serious intellectuals. I am sad to have to say this after 20 years of tireless efforts to get more people to do purva-paksha seriously."

Vish adds:
"Rajiv Malhotra's  position is absolutely correct. I have spent some personal and quality time, in the past, with Father Clooney during his sabbatical in Princeton, and have read many of his works on the Vedanta.  I am, to a certain extent, aware of the 'Vaasanas' (conditioned impressions) under which 'studies of the other' is made..
...  - He is very well acquainted with India, having spent time there and in having visited Jesuit schools and colleges (including St.Xaviers in Kolkatta about which this writer is acquainted)

- He does 'Praanayama' and prefers the new vogue photo of Christ, seated cross legged in a meditative pose.

- Being a Ph.D. and a professor and Theologian, he takes his view of life, profession, and knowledge seriously...

- If its possible, I feel the young adults (college going or professional) who have been introduced to Hindu thoughts in their school going lives, such as the Arya Vidya Peetham in Saylorsburg or Chinmaya Mission in Boston/Cranberry NJ (both of whom carry mention in Harvard Web pages)  or the Hindu Students Council, should be encouraged to attend these debates. These are the future American-Hindu citizens to whom these things will matter..."

Rajiv adds a clarification to is response to Chitra:
"...My remarks at the end of Chitra's post were NOT intended to refer to her per se, but to the general state if affairs concerning our activists. I often append my general thoughts at the end of someone's post as a matter of convenience, because I see an opportunity to express myself. Just to clarify, I respect Chitra a lot; we go back many, many years and we are on the same page on such matters"

Rajiv also shares his comments posted at Clooney's article to give readers an idea of the significance of that thread:
"
Hello P.J. Johnson,

I am glad to hear your candid position, that many Christians DO espouse the kind of sameness I refer to. You go further and ask, in effect, whats wrong with doing that?

My first goal is to get Christians to come out as in your case and admit this appropriation. There is nothing wrong with the cross-fertilization of cultures and faiths. But why hide this? It might surprise you how many Christian who DO approrpiate shakti into Christianity are in denial mode and like to camouflage this. Why, I ask?

Why is it that Greek influences on Christianity since St. Augustine are so explicity acknowledged and the Greek sources honored, but the same is not true of Hindu sources that have been so influential in modern re-interpretations of Christianity?

In a book planned for 2012, I show that Hindu influences on Christian theology far exceed the Greek influences but that Hindu sources have to be erased as something embarassing to Christianity, or as somehow making the appropriated element suspicious.

The Greeks were also heathens and infidels, hence that should not be the basis for hiding Hindu influences. My analysis goes deeper and locates the REASON for Christians wanting to distance themselves from Hindu sources after learning so much from them ..."



Rajiv posted excerpts from a response of Mr. Johnson. For Hindus who are used to open debating and sharing since times immemorial, the information in this comment can be stunning:
"Below is an excerpt from one PJ Johnston's comment, in which he responds to my question: Why must Christians who appropriate from Hinduism hide their sources rather than respect them with honor:

"Speaking entirely from personal experience, I think there are a lot of reasons why individual Christians who borrow from Hinduism or other religions might avoid publicizing the fact.  ... I was already the organizer of a small interfaith prayer group, and we had a Yahoo group and a website that documented our projects.  Someone associated with the community discovered the website, was deeply scandalized by the fact that we borrowed from other religions and admitted doing so, and printed a thick file of material from the website and circulated it to several bishops on the seminary Board of Trustees, which began a heresy investigation and put pressure on the seminary dean to remove me as a student ...  the head of the alumni association was the former parish priest of my academic advisor at the University of Chicago, which would have meant that the seminary would have sacrificed a significant amount of money in lost donations).  ... after which I received anonymous death threats, had Indian iconography stolen out of my prayer stall, and became an absolute pariah.  ... but this effectively destroyed my hope of livelihood as a mainstream Anglican priest and forced me to go back into Ph.D. studies. The financial, spiritual, and psychological costs associated with being open about interfaith borrowing were more than one could expect a rational person to accept, and if I were a rational person at all (instead of an unreasonably stubborn survivor of childhood bullying with a serious problem with giving into injustice) I would not have been willing to pay them."
 

Ravi shares more links:
"Please see links ... Thinly veiled appropriation? I'm inclined to think so.

But the keypoint is how seriously Catholic seminaries (among many many other Christian educational institutions) take their "purvapaksha".  This site is from them, though not very obvious immediately. A Fr. Vensus George there has done (extremely detailed) comparisons between Vedanta & western thought (Shankara vs Heidegger, etc etc, eg :    ). I've spent time reading the whole Advaita explanation in detail, & would invite scholars here to refute his understanding if they could..."





This definition of "gadfly" from wikipedia will be useful to while reading the next comment:
"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions, or just being an irritant."

Rajiv shares is disappointment at Francis Clooney suddenly choosing to drop out of the debate:
"I have posted the following comment at Francis Clooney's blog in America Magazine:

I am disappointed that Clooney has run away after posting this blog in response to mine. My letter to the magazine editor got no response. Clooney wrote back declining my offer to publicly discuss the issues concerning false comparisons of Holy Spirit and Shakti. I persisted, and he has written back praising me, saying that calling me a gadfly was in the same vein as Socrates was a gadfly.

Clooney is a very controversial figure among Hindus, but despite that I have always enjoyed our frank discussions over many years. To many Hindus, he is a Vatican spy and subversive, wanting to befriend Hindus in the same manner as the infamous Robert de Nobili, and for similar motives. This is Catholic inculturation at its greatest heights. To others he is a gadfly on Hinduism who has used naive Hindus to boost his reputation, and thus get himself a prestitious post at Harvard,
where, ironically, he is seen as an expert on Hinduism. He now mentors many other scholars on Hinduism...

...I dont think this hit-and-run is in the interest of advancing our mutual learning or that of readers. i have requested that he return to the table. Let us celebrate the differences between our respective faiths with mutual respect" 

Madhukar adds:
"This is not just the problem in America it is also in India. When one challenges the statements and practices of Christianity and their missionary zeal in public they hide themselves from the challenges. No wonder. "

Excerpts from a response by George who does not take kindly to Clooney's hit-and-run:
"... takes up, among other things, the costume of a gadfly only to deceive people. His chief assignment from Vatican is to cannibalize Hinduism, like they did many other traditions in the past... Clooney is never known to have debated anybody who knows anything about the subject to be debated. ... In his line of work, Clooney explores and scrutinizes points in Hinduism worthwhile to be plagiarized and transfer them to Jesus Christ and then summarize these in a supposedly scholarly work..."

Mary is not thrilled by George's comments:
"The post by George is a shocking ad hominem. I'm surprised that such fact-free vitriol would be allowed to sully what is otherwise tempered and
judicious exchange..

I was raised a Catholic and am quite familiar with teachings about the Holy Spirit. When I first read Rajiv's published article on Shakti, I observed several errors in understanding and history about the Holy Spirit. I mentally noted to myself that pre-publication, the article would have benefitted from a
collegial review by someone well-versed in the theology in question ..."

Rajiv's response:
"I wont comment on the allegations against George - he can do that.

But in the same post Mary mixes up an ad hominem against me for writing the article on Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with George.

She dismisses it as filled with errors, but fails to give a single argument in support of such a sweeping statement. This is illogical. Being raised in a religion does not necessarily make one an expert in it. In fact, most popular ideas of a religion are what some folks want to sell, and much that is true gets blocked. Today, much that is taught in Catholicism is appropriated from various sources over time, and then the sources blocked/erased...  I have hired more
than one product of Princeton Theological Seminary, one of the best in the world, precisely to find mistakes and suggest better alternatives... I find it troubling to have my work dismissed flippantly with no reason cited or backup provided whatsoever"

George responds to Mary:
"Ms. Mary, I didn't have you in mind personally when I mentioned "fools of other persuasions" being taken for a ride by Clooney. I am sorry if I gave you a rude shock. [Many] people get fooled by the seeming "tempered and judicious"
exchange.

However, if one removes the wool of faith over one's eyes, one will begin to see what I mean about Clooney and one day thank me for pointing out the facts. I've never heard of a Jesuit who seemed what he really is.

You can check this out yourself: ask Fr. F. X. Clooney why doesn't he participate in a debate with Rajiv Malhotra "

Bhakthi comments on U-turns:
"After 36 years in ISKCON, I know of very few members who U-turned back to their Judao-Christian roots. Many, however, either having left their commitment to Vaisnava-dharma, or even while ostensibly remaining within it,
have UTurned into postmodern relativism."

Rajiv has the last word in this discussion as he responds to BV: 
".. What I explained in ou[r] chat when we met in
Princeton was a small bit of it.

Uturn does not necessarily return the person back to his/her original faith or identity. In fact that is very rare. In most cases of uturn, the person seeks some other western identity, or even defines a new original one, or remains in what I call stage-2 where "there is no identity at all" or there is  everything is the same" identity.

Uturn process does not end with the individual. It continues through others who follow in that person's footsteps, taking it further. So while the primary uturner might not go back to a western religion, his/her followers/readers/students later on DO take that dharmic appropriated material and re-frame it into explicitly western history. I cite numerous examples of
these multi-generational trajectories."

Hence, individual uturns are just one kind in my model. There are two other kinds, one of which is the uturn of a SCHOOL OF THOUGHT OR LINEAGE."
 
 

RMF Summary: Week of July 18 - 24, 2011

July 18

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July 20

Dalit Human Rights Movements in Ayiroor village The following email was received from someone named Salam: I used to comment regularly around 2003-2005 while you were writing in Sulekha.com on the...

July 20 Book Review in Kumudam Jyothisham 22/7/11 After persistent efforts f Srinivasan reports: "Kumudam Jyothisham, 22.8.2011, a reputed Tamil weekly magazine, has published a half page book review of 'Breaking India'.This magazine has a reach of some one lakh plus subscribers. Many may wonder why a Astrology magazine? The editor of the magazine, Shri A.M.Rajagoplan over the years, has been writing consistently editorials in national issues..." This laudable effort attracted a lot of positive feedback. July 21 The Leela Samson Scandal - Extract from "Breaking India"   Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines,"... The thread below produced a lot of discussion. We will try to cover this in a separate thread. July 21 On Beliefnet.com: 'Holy Spirit is not the same as Shakti or Kundalini http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/Articles/Holy-Spirit-is-not-the\ -same-as-Shakti-or-Kundalini.aspx?p=1 ... " July 21 Inculturation - a strategy document I recently came across a document by one Fr Alfred Maravilla. This prompted me to quickly trawl through the thread in this Group on inculturation to see if any... July 21 Review in Amar Ujala influential Hindu paper http://tinyurl.com/3vuwd2a <http://tinyurl.com/3vuwd2a> or http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QOIlTnZobVhCXMvgzIp0vFpdf_ycGtU2f2tVkjB9DGd\ ... followup link: Re: Review in Amar Ujala influential Hindu paper - link access issue Try alternate link below to read the amar ujala article: www.gayatri.info/amarujala.pdf Rajiv: even better, if file gets uploaded to the www.BreakingIndia.com... July 21 Hillary boosts Leela Sampson http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/22211910/Kathakali-for-Hillary.html <http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/22211910/Kathakali-for-Hillary.html> Was her visit purely... July 23 More Money than God Chitra shares:  I urge you to read this excellent New York Times book review ( details below) that I hesitate to copy here in its entirety because it runs seven pages long. ... It is precisely these kinds of books that must be made available in India to mobilize grassroots awareness to counter the growing infestation of missionaries.  They provide invaluable validation to Indian writers saying the same things. The Victim Brigade that paints opposition to proselytization as originating from unhinged "Hindutvawadis"  will find it harder to counter facts documented by authors named Janet and Jason...   July 24  {Breaking India} 2005: NY Conf. on Re-imagining Hinduism Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines," Amaryllis... July 24 Soft conversion in the name of rural development in Chattisgarh Ganesh shares: Christian aid launches solar lighting for the rural poor in Chattisgarh. ...   July 24 Breaking India in Spiritual Discourse Lecture Title: The Importance of India to Krishna Devotees URL: http://www.bvks.com/2011/07/the-importance-of-india-to-krishna-devotees/ There is a very nice...