Example of Inculturation: Christian Bharatanatyam

This post summarizes two threads in October 2011 that had a lively discussion on Leela Samson's attempts to de-Hinduize Kalakshetra and Bharatanatyam, the origins of Bharatanatyam, as well as a followup on Carnatic Music.
 
Response to Indian dancer upset at my critique of Christian Bharatna

After the recent highly successful book event in Houston, the organizers received an email from a dancer in Houston about an upcoming performance by Leela Samson's students. When someone sent the Breaking India excerpt about Leela Samson to this dancer, she replied that Breaking India had "resurrected the scandal" against Leela Sampson 4 years after Sampson's supporters had declared it "a dead issue or a non issue". Since it was a private letter forwarded to me for a response, I will not name the person. The letter claimed that the "attacks against Leela Sampson" in 2007 were the work of one man based on "some internal 'politics' and innuendos" within the dance academy. It went on to say that "the dance community of India strongly supported Leela Samson and discredited Nadar's accusations as scurrilous religion-based comments." The protestor proudly asserts: "I am a dancer, from Chennai, and to me, the Kalakshetra is a 'shrine' to art built by Rukmini Devi..." 

I agree with her on the prestigious dance academy being a shrine. I disagree with her on what that entails. To understand the syndrome we are dealing with, it is important to first understand the strategy known as inculturation and its colonizing influences upon a growing number of Indian dancers, such as this protestor. What this dancer feels is precisely the result of inculturation - namely, to de-Hinduize the tradition in such a manner that it is welcomed by the practitioners who begin to see this shift as a kind of modernization and globalization program. The first stage is to diminish the dharmic metaphysical context by emptying the symbols of their deeper meanings, and this gets gradually secularized and eventually Christianized.

The students learn to perform across a wide range of improvisations  and stories depending on the given audience. From the most traditional to the most distant from tradition, there is a spectrum with the following stages:

1) very traditional Hindu

2) modern but still Hindu

3) use of Hindu symbols but without explaining their traditional meaning

4) symbols turned into decorations and generic spirituality, to be sprinkled  in for exotic/ethnic beauty

5) total secularization

6) Christian stories, but still using the traditional dance grammar, dress, gestures

7) dancing stories of protest against the tradition's "oppression" against women, Dalits, etc.

Ever since Christian institutions across India and the West started taking over Indian dance academies, they have been increasingly producing such students in the name of modernity. The performer will do different things before different audiences. This is sort of equivalent to what is called "al taqiyah" in Islam, namely, to be respectful to the majority culture and traditions for the time being.

Inculturation is at a highly advanced stage of perfection in India. It was started by the church first in Latin America and Africa to gradually convert tribes by infiltrating them gently with appropriation of their culture. The western trend of Christian Yoga is a part of the same syndrome. There are many such appropriations that confuse Indians into thinking it is a complement to them. I deal with this partly in my forthcoming book "Being Different", and in greater detail in my subsequent "U-Turn Theory".

What I would greatly appreciate from Leela Sampson's academy is a clear statement of policy on inculturation and secularization of Bharatnatyam: Does she claim that this dance can be performed either as Hindu form or as non Hindu form? Does she believe that our postmodern era makes it easier (and hence desirable) to teach and learn dance that is "liberated" from Hinduism? Does she feel that Bharatnatyam is separable from its underlying metaphysics - a metaphysics that my book "Being Different" shows to be incompatible with the fundamental metaphysics of Abrahamic religions?

In other words, let us get Sampson's clear position on what is the relationship between (i) Hinduism and Natya Shastra and (ii) Natya Shastra and Bharatnatyam.....

But she is unlikely to do any such deep introspection. Her final sentence in the letter clarifies her escapist mindset: "It is a heavy book with disturbing writings. I'd rather spend time studying Vedanta..." This interpretation of Vedanta as an escape from whatever one finds "disturbing" and "heavy" is one of the symptoms of what I have called the Moron Smriti. But that is the topic of yet another book and I won't go further into it here."

 FL shares:

"
Bharatnatyam dance Anita Rathnam says "nothing is interesting in the Ramayana for me"

Phd degree in Women's Studies from Mother Teresa University! That explains it all.

http://www.narthaki.com/info/intervw/intrv109f.html"

Manas responds

">>This interpretation of Vedanta as an escape from whatever one finds "disturbing" and "heavy" is one of the symptoms of what I have called the Moron Smriti. <<

Couldn't agree more. While dharma allows one the freedom of interpretation within what the tradition grants, many Hindus have come to associate dharma with pusillanimity, inaction and escapism. In other words, we should make all compromises while others should be granted all exceptions at whatever cost. Then they justify this using all sorts of outrageous non-arguments as we just saw."

 

Rajiv adds a clarification. This  provides an important distinction between how Bharatanatyam should be practiced, and emphasizing Hinduism's pluralistic tradition.

 

"This topic has entered other lists and there are some misunderstandings I wish to clear. Someone is distorting my position to claim that I am upset when Judeo-Christian persons perform bharatnatyam. THIS IS NOT MY POSITION.

If a Judeo-Christian person does the dance AUTHENTICALLY as per Hindu Natya Shastra that would be fine.
But many Christians have difficulty doing it this way, because it conflicts with their Christian indoctrination - worship of "false gods" and "idols" and so forth. When a dancer performs a gesture, mantra or ritual to a Hindu deity, say Shiva or Ganesha, is that dancer feeling the deity as GOD? Or it is felt
internally as a "secular" or "cultural" symbol of "out of respect for our ancestors"? If the Christian dancer is clear and not self-deceptive that indeed the deity IS GOD then there is no issue - but then the padre in his/her church wont be happy.

There is NO problem with a person doing bharatnatyam regardless of his/her own faith. Thats not the issue. Lets not misrepresent the issue. Pls read what i wrote in my response yesterday. its about inculturation as a public program to
infiltrate hindus by deception."

 

Senthil has an important question:

"The bharata natyam was originally practiced by devadasis, who performed this art in the temple, in devotion to the god. Since devadasis had a share of income of the temple, she is independant, and hence only her devotion to god, was the
prime motivation for excelling in this art. Today, the bharatanatyam had been made audience centric, and the dancers had no permanent funding (i suppose). Which means, they are in an economic compulsion to attract audience, and this is diluting the art itself.

I would like to know the Rajiv's opinion on this.. Does he support commercialising of bharatanatya? Should we allow bharatanatyam dancers appeasing the audience, than devotion to the god?

We can see many instances, where people eulogise mixing bharatanatyam with western dance, and project that as a mark of liberalism..

While we should be aware of inculteration, we also should be aware of the fundamental root cause. the root cause, that bharat natya dancers have no survival funding, and left to fend for themselves.."

Rajiv's response:
"1) When the dance is not performed as spiritual sadhana, it is being secularized, which I find troubling. To understand why I am troubled: In my next book "Being Different", I explain secularism as seen from dharmic perspective, and I contrast it with dharma sapekshata - two different approaches to equal
treatment.

In the same manner, the spiritual meaning invested in the Eucharist ritual should not be secularized.

2) Secularizing is not the same thing as commercializing. They can and often do go together. But one can exist without the other, in which case commercializing by itself is not necessarily bad - if its a means to fund the tradition but each performer feels the inner process as sadhana."

George adds:

"Mr. Senthil has brought up a point that somehow seems to evade the Hindu collective memory for good. In any discussion of Indian classical arts, whether dance or music, the role of the devadasis, the holy women who evolved and carried these traditions through centuries, are promptly and conveniently forgotten. According to the Agamas, the temple ritual was incomplete without the involvement of the devadasi, something most Hindus seems to have forgotten, or deems beyond merit.

The classical dance of the devadasi and the ganika went out of the temple and the royal palace for the first time for the privilege of the British, creating the English phrase "nautch girls", and simultaneously also bringing the devadasi institution into disrepute, especially among the English-educated, prudery-infected Indians. The role of the Christian missionaries in the campaign against devadasis is a subject that merits a separate research. With the devadasi system banned by the Madras Presidency and the temple privileges withdrawn (as Senthil has noted), the devadasis were literally on the street and forced into prostitution. The Indian classical arts, which until then, was the privilege of the dasis, were facing a real danger of extinction. If it were not for a few individuals who loved the arts, like E. Krishna Iyer of Madras, who supported the dance and music of the dasis, these arts would have disappeared. It was under these circumstances that Rukmini Devi started the Kalakshetra and redeemed a certain respectability for the arts and slowly girls from other communities began to trickle in. Even then, any dancer of repute took pains to trace or establish their lineage to one or the other of the famous devadasis.

What an irony that having failed to destroy the Hindu arts almost 100 years ago, the Christians are now taking over the very same institution that they campaigned against. There is nothing secular about this attempt by Christians - this is outright appropriation, another demo for Mr. Rajiv Malhotra's U-turn thesis of the scavenging Christians. 

Indian classical dance without its traditional Hindu theme is outright fraud, a violation of propriety and a blatant usurpation of intellectual and religious property."

 

Venkat adds:

"Arangettram, under the original devadasi system, was a sacred rite where the initiate danced in the temple. It was a dedication to the deity and not merely a performance for the visual pleasure of semi-literate audience. Virtually every modern Bharatanatyam dancer (rare exceptions apart) has no love for arts and is just a comercial performer or teacher. The late Tamil writer Sujata (Rangarajan) once wrote that many TamBrams learn Bharatanatyam just to marry an IAS or IIT-US settled groom. Later they become teachers to augment the income. It is just a commercial investment. They internalize every western bias. Recently, I was photographing a Bharatanatyam performance and thought that the use of talcum/rose powder by the dancer actually makes them look less than beautiful in photographs and blocks the natural shine resulting from the bounced flash light. When I asked the dance teacher about this, she replied that it is customary in Bharatanatyam to wear rose/talcum powder.

 

Talcum powder is customary?!!! Unlike the devadasis who were proud of their art and their darker skin shade, modern Bharatanatyam dancers hope that they look like whites or at least resemble them." 

 

 Senthil follows up:

"1) When someone funds the bharatanatyam, then doesnt it mean, they are in one or way, subjected to the individual fund givers?

2) And while we are discussing this issue, can we bring up its original purpose? ie, this dance is to be performed in temples rather than before audience, so that we can make it temple centric..

In future, if hindu temples are to be freed from government control, i would like to see such bharatanatyam and carnatic songs performed in every hindu temples...

Rajiv's response:
On 1: It depends on the donor's motive which could range from pure seva to the tradition all the way to selfish motive, and various stages in between.
On 2: Agreed. But easier said than done, for too many hindus today are a decadent lot." 

Ganesh shares:

"... ... those who were called Devadasis who became the pioneers of various dance forms, not just Bharatanatyam, but Kuchipodi, Kathakalli et al.

Sadly, thanks to Christian inculturation prostitutes are termed Devadasis for breaking up the harmony of a country.

http://www.mahavidya.ca/hindu-art-and-architecture/hindu-ritual-arts/the-devadas\
i/

Here's a very hollow article written by a member, National Commission for Women.
http://www.samarthbharat.com/devadasis.htm" 

Senthil adds:

"1. The devadasi community is still present in interior districts of Northern karnataka, and it seems the old system of devoting eldest girl child to temples is still in practice.. but the western media is projecting them as an oppression on women, and had been projecting them as institutionalised prostitution.. This is purely a mis-information...

2. The devadasis in tamilnadu may not want to display their identity, but those in karnataka are proud of their heritage. Please see the website  www.devadiga.com where they have grouped together as a community. We can use this website for any future debate on devadasi system..." 

Venk. shares:

"And now we have a carnatic singer glorifying Christian carnatic music.

The lady convent educated) needs to be educated on the devastating effects of inculturation.

Love Thy Neighbor
http://kaminidandapani.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/10/love-thy-neighbor.html

Plenty of fawning comments. Do add yours to bring some sanity in there.

The only comment made sense by a "Christian" (appended below). (Kamini responds but pathetica so.

Posted by: Dr Antony | October 09, 2010 at 10:24 PM

I understand you are an expert in Karnatic music and so I don't venture up on an argument with you. I am not an expert,and music is not my profession.But I seriously enjoy music, and I can never forgive self acclaimed singers,who cannot keep their pitch.It is very easy to recognize who has music in them.It wont take you more than few minutes.Do I have to tell you?

I think I have heard this priest in our local television
channel,where he made a devastating attempt to do a kacheri. He cannot say ten swaroms at a row. The only evidence I could see that he was a student of Yesudas was his beard. That is often a good disguise for ignorance.

I am a Christian. In the history of the Church in Kerala,I don't find any Karnatic music experts. Yesudas never tried that mistake,because he knows the traditions of Karnatic music.The Keerthanas are all praises of Hindu Gods,and it needs tremendous devotion for it to come out.It was not meant for Christian church recitals.Christians in India imitate many traditional styles,and incorporate them in to their practices. I have heard some of these poor attempts of praises to Mother Mary in Karnatic ragas,to my utter despair.  I always wanted to tell this priest to stick on to his job,and not to try to dirty the only pure tradition we keep in India.
By the way,did it really come from your heart?"

Subramanian disagrees:

"I do not agree with you Music is devotional. You should be happy that the christians are turning to be Indians rather than Christians Prayer is for one man's satisfaction. If I follow a different methods , it is up to me because GOD will not punish. If you do a mistake, it is elder's responsibility to correct and not to condemn Karnatic music is a tradition. Bharathiar wrote a lot of songs. The beauty in his songs are one can sing the same sond in different ragas. And the subject he chose is even political I wish you do not restrict music to one religion. please be happy that they are following us
In the name of music let them not kill the music. This is my prayer" 

Rakesh agrees wih Subramanian:

" By insisting everything is linked to Hindu religion, we are becoming an Apple in the fight versus google and microsoft
Better to have some elements of Hinduism that are seen as secular that will allow dialog with others. It is better that these traditions are 'appropriated' since they also are a bridge. As long as we hold our end of the bridge well, they will serve us
Which means, get to economic prosperity and patronize the arts" 

George responds to Subramanian & Rakesh:

"Long after Hindus and Bharatanatyam are gone and buried, with the earth and dharma destroyed and burnt, naive Hindus can find relief in the thought that there will be Christunatyam and Christians left to do the last tandava on the prophesied doomsday. I am not saying this because of any irrational hatred I nurse for Christians or Christianity - most of my relatives are still Christian, out of convenience or ignorance or arrogance. There is much evidence on my side if one cares to stick out his neck and look around.

Christmas and Easter were once pagan festivals in Europe around 1500 years ago, but none of the pagans remain to talk about them. How many people living on earth know that these were pagan festivals that had nothing to do with Christians or Jesus. The birthday of Jesus (Christmas) was celebrated by all early Christians on January 7th and is still celebrated by many Eastern Christians on that day. The date changed when the "faith" came to Europe....Now both festivals are patented and celebrated all over the earth by the Christians.

...Church liberalism is only a show for people living in the West, because otherwise they cannot wield the influence they still have, like having a seat at the UN and in all countries as diplomats. It was the fascist Mussolini who made Vatican a state. Inside the Indian churches, the Christians systematically tarnish the Hindu religion and on the outside, are taking over one Hindu institution after the other (like Kalakshetra). Many Christian orders have shed their white cassocks and wear saffron robes. Earlier they had shed their customary black for white cassocks when they found that Hindus ran away seeing the black outfit. The white cassock was adopted only for India."

Venkat adds:

"I was curious to test how some of the Carnatic music practitioners perceive this misappropriation, or as George correctly called, Christian scavenging of Carnatic music. So, I called three practitioners (none a celebrity) who are also traditional Hindus who have brought up their children teaching them their mother tongue (Tamil). They all agreed with G's observations, and even though they had not heard about Rajiv Malhotra, were glad that he had taken this initiative. One of them was very sharp and is very familiar with the typical west-aping Hindus...He wanted Hindus to be prepared for the following counter:

 

"How is the Christian adaptation of Carnatic music different from Muthuswamy Dikshitar's adaptation of "English Notes" given that Western Classical music is Christian?"

 

He gave the response himself. There is nothing Christian about western classical music and by the time the historically verifiable religious scores were composed in the 15th century onwards, this system of music had been around for nearly a 1000 years. Its roots go back to the Klezmer (Jewish) and other diverse forms of European music, all pagan in nature. If any, there is no evidence that western classical music had any notations until the last six centuries or so. Dikshitar's father used to take him to concerts since India was colonized then. It was just a chance exposure, and all he did was adapt a few notes. He never attempted to appropriate a European tradition and claim it as ours.

 

In contrast, Indian classical music is very Hindu in nature as Pt. Ravishankar mentions in his work. One can go back 2000 years and find that it is not only codified but also the very same themes that are rendered now were rendered then too. A side note: he and I discussed an example - the great song Vatavaraiyai mattaakki which M S Subbulakshmi rendered in the 1940s but which had been written (with notations) by Ilango Adigal in the Silappadikaram in 170 CE. The theme centers around the Samudra manthan episode. So, our classical music has always been inseparable from the Hindu cultural and religious ethos. In contrast, Christian church posthumously canonized western classical music which itself is an act of Christian scavenging. He also mentioned that there is not even a question of Dikshitar absorbing any structural elements from western classical because Indian classical is far more advanced with microtones (ghamaka), whereas, as Menuhin remarked, western classical is far less nuanced as seen by the loss of the perfect fifth as a result of the faulty, and likely scavenged, staff notation that western classical uses.

 

Hope this input helps our speakers so that you are not caught off guard. I am not knowledgeable in music, and did not even fully understand everything this gentleman told, but others can surely put together better arguments based on these inputs...."

 

Mukund comments:

"Actually in all the religions of Abrahmic series you will find that they have NO MUSIC. No where in Christian or Jewish history any reference to singing or misic will be found."

 

Koenraad Elst responds:

"Singing and playing flute or harp is mentioned passim in the Bible many times. Most importantly, King David sang and danced in front of his people, part of the ritual role a Kind used to fulfil. Christianity has developed its own music early on combining Hebrew and Greek traditions and probably others besides. Like painting and sculpture, music was deemed enormously important in winning over the illiterate masses. ... Contrary to Islam where music had no legitimacy (in spite of secular peddler of "Sufi music"), Judaism and Christianity had a rich musical tradition of their own. Church musicians also pioneered musical literacy with Guido of Arezzo's note
system.

Whatever else is wrong with Christianity, a lack of music is not it....."

 

Venkat_h adds:

"Here is an instance of Hindus giving up Kathakali and Christians bringing it to life...

A Xtian touch to Kathakali
Thiruvananthapuram | Posted on Sep 19, 2011

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: One day, a few months ago, in a burst of inspiration, Fr Joy Chencheril wrote a long poem on the Christian Mass. While he was pondering over it, an idea struck him. ‘Why not make this poem into a kathakali drama?’ he thought.

“We Christians should promote kathakali, which is a dying art,” says Fr Joy, who belongs to the Missionary Congregation of the Blessed Sacrament. “Very few people care for it. Only foreigners come to see it. Not many temples organise kathakali performances during their annual fests.”

When he was a child growing up in Mannar, in Kottayam district, Fr Joy had attended many kathakali performances at nearby temples and had grown to love it. Hence, he decided he would do something about it.

He approached Radha Madhavan, who is a well-known attakatha writer. (An attakatha is a story running alongside a kathakali drama). “I was very enthusiastic,” says Radha. “I have a lot of respect for other religions.”

One of the reasons for the lack of popularity of kathakali is because the shlokas are in Sanskrit. But Radha and Fr Joy worked closely, over six months, to render the shlokas in Malayalam...." 

 

Michel Danino responds to Mukund:

"Let us not oversimplify, please. I don't know about Islam but prayers are chanted in Judaism, apart from other music
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_music). Christianity has a long tradition of music (see Gregorian chant as one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant). Much of Bach's music was sacred; Mozart and Beethoven composed masses and other sacred music. ... I am not aware of any injunction in Judaism or Christianity against music." 

George responds:

"Originally, music was looked down upon among Christians though there are some references to songs and hymns among early Christians. Musical instruments were anathema until the 7th century when pope Vitalian allowed the organ into the church (this is also a belief among Christians like everything
else). The reason for this prejudice was because the bible attributed the musical instruments to Cain's bloodline. Genesis 4:21* - *"And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who handle the harp and organ."
The puritans of England under Cromwell banished music from the church and this continued in the USA as well wherever the puritans were in power.

However, for Christians, music like everything else is a means to an end, which is capturing the world for Christ. They will contaminate every natural thing under the sun with their poison to achieve this end"

Raj shares:

"Michelji, many church historians and scholars have written about this. Instrumental music is forbidden in worship services, but vocals are allowed. Instrumental music may be allowed when not used for worship. I do totally agree with Georgeji that they will do and allow "anything" as long as they can get a few more people to convert. I do disagree with Mukundji's assertion.

Here are some references:

Instrumental Music in the New Testament Worship Service: link

Origin of Instrumental Music IN Christian Worship - M. C. Kurfees: link

Amazing History Of Instrumental Music: link

I had posted about this earlier as well: link

...."

N S Rajaram comments:

"Choral and instrumental are both part of Catholic service. It is the Protestants who were not as strong patrons of music as the Catholic church. Even a Lutheran like Bach wrote Catholic mass like the B Minor. Monteverdi, frescobalsi and many other Catholics wrote church music as did Mozart and Beethoven later-- both Catholics

 

     Bach was also the greatest composer for the organ. I am very familiar with the musical practice and history of the period having taken master classes in music history and performance. I also was assistant to a well-known music critic in London. Catholics have been lavish supporters of the arts. Luther and the Puritans objected to it.

... Some of the greatest music in the Western tradition was inspired by religion-- like Bach's St Matthew's Passion and the Mass in B Minor.

 

 It is not correct to say that in Hinduism the music is almost entirely sacred. There are many works like 'tillanas', 'javalis' and others that are secular. Even in the so-called 'sacred' music, greater part of the performance is taken up by secular activity"
 
Vishal has the last word in this fascinating thread:
" ... when India was shifting from Vedic music to classical music in the early centuries of the common era, there was opposition from both ends. In Kavya literature, we see protogonists of classical music ridiculing the chanters of Samaveda ...

 

So music does have a secular (non Dharma associated) content as stated by Dr Rajaram below. Yes, it cannot be denied that perhaps of all religious traditions, it is Hindu Dharma in which music is so well integrated with the practical as well as theoretical aspects of Dharma. I am not sure if any other major religious tradition can boast of a 'Music Theology' as Hindu Dharma does"

RMF Summary: Week of October 3 - 9, 2011

October 4

BEING DIFFERENT: First public talk at California conference a succes Within a week we hope to upload the video from my talk at the conference last weekend, where I was keynote speaker and gave an overview of the new book, BEING...

October 4

Christians launch political party in Tamilnadu (March 22, 2011) Christians in Tamil Nadu have launched a political party in the southern Indian state, where a legislative assembly poll is scheduled for...  October 4 Indian clergymen whistleblowers Prahalad: A couple of years ago, Sister Jesmi, a nun who retired as professor in a women’s college in... October 4 Ethanographic Intelligence - A possible tool for more divide & conve This link shows how Ethnographic intelligence, currently used as a counter terrorism mechanism can actually be used as an effective "divide and rule" strategy.... October 4 (This post received a lot of responses, involving a long discussion. We will try to summarize this in a separate post). Response to Indian dancer upset at my critique of Christian Bharatnatyam After the recent highly successful book event in Houston, the organizers received an email from a dancer in Houston about an upcoming performance by Leela...  followup thread Re: Response to Indian dancer upset at my critique of Christian Bhar [In response to Mukund Apte]: Let us not oversimplify, please. I don't know about Islam but prayers are chanted in Judaism, apart from other music...     October 4 Houston Seminar on Breaking India: September 11, 2011 - Audience Q & Sanjay: I am looking for a source for the quote from Narayana Murthy that Rajiv-ji mentions in the video. Ref. <quote> According to Narayana Murthy, when he was asked why Indians were so good in IT,rather than explain that we have a whole learning tradition, he said"Thanks for the British for teaching us Maths and Science." Rajiv responds: "I heard this in his talk in 2003 at the Bangalore conference organized jointly organized by Templeton and Infinity Foundation. I felt he was impressing the western guests. The "scientific debt to colonialism" is a common theme amongst many leftists. Gyan Prakash of Princeton has written a book on Indian science during the British period in which the direction of influence is onw-way from Europe to India as if the europeans learned nothing scientific from Indians. (Mr. Murthy has said that he was rooted as a leftist in his younger days but that he later turned into a capitalist. That kind of rejection of the left is for its economic model only, but it does not automatically involve embracing the dharma paradigm.) The key issue is: where lies the root of Indians' competence in science? The west claims to have invented the scientific method - a claim many Indians accept. Thats why I started the very ambitious project of doing 20 volumes on the History of Indian Science and Technology, of which 8 are published already. What is more troubling than a random remark is that Mr. Murthy's foundation has given a multi million dollar grant to bring out English translations of Indian classical works, and the editor in control is Sheldon Pollock. A brilliant Sanskritist no doubt, Pollock's interpretations have tilted towards things like: Aryan invasion theory, dalits being oppressed by sanskrit under brahmin control, etc. In some of the volumes of Indian classics which he did under a different series, such ideologies came through in various ways direct and indirect. For the same amount of money, Mr. Murthy could have re-ignited a whole India based Sanskrit scholarship and translation under the guidance of pandits. Of course, its his hard earned money and we respect his right to spend it howsoever he chooses. I am merely expressing my personal opinion on how I wish our tycoons would back their own civilization in the same manner as American tycoons helped build their civilizational foundations. The Rockefeller, Ford, Carnegie philanthropy did not go to foreign scholars to write American history. " October 5 Ref: FHRS Digest No.2305 - Rajiv Malhotra's Breaking India - posted Ref: FHRS Digest No.2305 Rajiv Malhotra's Breaking India - posted by Achintya Nath Sexena Oct,2. With reference to the remarks of Mr.Achintya Nath Saxena that Dalit and Dravidian movements are home grown, I can only say that the author is simply under informed about the genesis of separatist trends.   It seems Mr.Sexena has   turned a blind eye to the historical facts relating to the colossal role played by the imperial Govt. in creating a wedge and fanning hatred amongst the people of India.  Further, Mr.Sexena remarks regarding Smritis and oppression of lower castes by upper castes for centuries are nothing short of monomania.  For people of any evolved civilization/progressive nation, inheriting such a precious patrimony i.e., the  Vedic texts including original Manusmriti(without interpolations) would have been a matter of great pride.    However, it is quite astonishing to note that  certain sections of our own countrymen,  instead of digging the gems of Vedic truths in their original form by purging the extraneous matter, simply engage themselves in negating and condemning them without going into their depth..." October 5 Critique and salient points of Breaking India - Blog Venkat posts: Here is an worwhile blog which well summarizes breaking india. It is worth reading thru it. ... October 5 Explaining purva paksha to Hindu activists Rajiv Malhotra posts: "One or two Hindu activists in India who have no clue what this book is about have expressed concern simply on the basis that it has been endorsed by a variety of persons who are non-hindu, including christians, scientists who are atheists, etc. Such a statement comes from a closed mind which parrots simplistic statements that are already well known, and hence speaks to those already on their wavelength. They need to understand the traditional method of purva paksha debate with opponents. BEING DIFFERENT opens a new type of interfaith engagement than has existed today. It seek to (a) clarify dharma for those inside dharma, (b) invite open introspection from those who are in the undecided/confused middle, and (c) challenge those with certain metaphysical beliefs opposed to dharma. To achieve this goal, it defines dharma categories in clear, strong terms (i.e. categories that comprise whats "different and distinct" about dharma) and invites debate on our terms. It reverses the gaze upon the west using the dharmic lens, making us the observer of the other. Till now the terms on which debates took place were set by western metaphysical assumptions. Therefore, my project is to hold a series of debates, some live and some online as webinars, with various thinkers from diverse traditions. I already have serious interest from Hindu groups, some Christian theological centers, Buddhists, those in the scientific approach of religion without espousing any faith, etc. I want to expand this set of debates. The email from the critic who has not even seen the book says: "Why has the author sought and received endorsment from the evangelist Francis Clooney who is acitve in TN? Considering the previous book is about the church's agenda to break india I am surprised that Malhotra has sought Clooney's endorsement who has authored comparative religion books on mary worship and devi worship besides insidiously penetrating srivaishnava mathams seeking to be educated on srivaishnava philosophy. If the author wants endoirsements from evangelists then he diesnt need Hindus to read his book." I preciously started an online debate with Clooney challenging his view that Mary and devi worship can be interchanged. It did not go far because of his unavailability. With this book, I want and hope Clooney will organize a public event at Harvard (or somewhere) where my positions on how dharma DIFFERS from western religions can get a fair hearing. Therefore, his endorsement is a good sign and I appreciate his willingness to have such a conversations. Once a door is opened, one may have serious engagements in a tone of mutual respect and fairness. Of course, those Hindus who are insecure will not do this because they simply cannot do it. They have not done enough study and churning internally for a sufficient number of years, have not engaged in hundreds of serious intellectual encounters with opponents to be able to develop solid positions that they could confidently bring to the intellectual forums. They are secure only inside their small and relatively isolated cocoons and are afraid to speak in an open forum as equals. It is easier for them to shout than reason but this has only turned off many of our own youth and pushed them away. I am wanting to stick my neck out and face the "other" in the same spirit as our purva paksha tradition. Purva paksha REQUIRES the active participation of the opponent; otherwise it is a monologue and not a purva paksha. In the same fashion, if a Muslim scholar wants to debate me I am interested. All I ask for as a precondition is a fair forum and moderator. I intend to bring my own video camera to record so that nobody can edit a one-sided outcome. Most interfaith events I have seen have a pathetic Hindu presence. BEING DIFFERENT wants to shift the game by this very approach. It shocks and bothers many Hindus who get a drubbing in metaphysical debates, because their knowledge is limited go Hinduism only with a superficial knowledge of western religions and philosophies. BEING DIFFERENT gives extensive Hindu views on metaphysical issues concerning: Aristotle, Hegel, Christian ideas of original sin, redemption, salvation, Judaism's exclusiveness, misappropriations of Hindu dance/yoga and even Vedanta, the Hebraic/Hellenistic split, the science/religion split in the west, among several others. It is a delight to interact in the spirit of purva paksha on such matters with those in other faiths. I hope to educate more Hindus on how to do this without fear of getting a thrashing. The west has systematically studied Indian civilization for centuries (incl. debating hindu scholars) and have built armies of scholars who can debate any issue from their point of view. It is time we level the playing field by encouraging our folks to reverse the gaze - which is what BEING DIFFERENT does." October 6 Nick Sutton - oxford center for Hindu studies Please view the link below for a perfect example of a eurocentric academic who is holding forth on Hindus. He plays the game of giving all negative information... October 6 Ayudha Puja & Vidyarambham Inculturation Hindu or Christian, for Kerala Kids It's Vidyarambham http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=118169 Kasargod: Ayudha Puja Held at Our Lady of... October 6 Punjab overwhelmed by Christian missionaries - Jesus as Satguru, Chu ** I wonder what explanation the weak Hndus who glorify Christian yoga, bharatnatyam, karnatik music et al will now use for Christian satsang and Jesus as... October 7 A Shankaracharya on Islam Dear All,  Please see this video as an example of all that Malhotraji has been warning about October 8 Response to Vishal Mangalwadi's attack on "Breaking India" its princ Rajiv Malhotra [and Aravindan Neelakandan] share: In his review of the book `Breaking India', [see 1] Vishal Mangalwadi makes numerous attacks on book and on my personally. Being a prominent world class jet set evangelist serving the foreign nexuses, he gets extensive coverage in the book and it is not surprising that he would hit back through such a rant. My co-author and I are issuing the following rejoinder to Mangalwadi's review: Response to Vishal Mangalwadi's attack on 'Breaking India' and its principle author Mangalwadi eulogizes `Mosaic Ethnology' thus: "Mosaic Ethnology) assumes that our human race originated from one pair of parents. Initially everyone spoke the same language. Linguistic and racial divisions arose after Noah. The authors are right in saying that from the 17th to the early 20th century it was not secular rationalism but the Bible that inspired and directed Europe's intellectual vitality, including Indological studies. Hinduism and Islam had been in India for centuries but neither of those faiths stimulated their followers to study India, its languages, history, people, or natural resources as the Bible inspired Europeans." Mangalwadi perhaps did not read the book properly for he misses the point entirely. From the 17th to 20th century it was not the Biblical view alone that shaped European mindset but also colonial expansion, renaissance driven enlightenment which actually has its roots in the rediscovery of the pre-Christian pagan philosophical and scientific legacy and identity crisis driven by all these factors – which was forging the European worldview. What Mangalwadi boasts as `Europe's intellectual vitality' was actually responsible for the justification of the most cruel and most commercialized slavery establishment in the history of humanity namely trans-Atlantic slave trade.  It was the Hamitic Myth of the Bible that justified slave trade and all its cruelty. For example the nineteenth century American best seller `Slavery as its Relates to the Negro or the African Race' (1843)  elaborated on the Biblical scene of Noah cursing Ham's progeny into slavery and cursed the Blacks should remain as `both in times of peace and war a despised, degraded and oppressed race.'  As late as 1895 Biblical mythology was trumped up in defense of slavery as in the writings of Troup Taylor, a devout Christian who in a very popular track explained that the entire `Negro' race `was adapted to a destiny suited only to an inferior race.' The countless evidences can be multiplied and one can read some of them in a very detailed manner in the book (for example pp. 40-41). Mangalwadi exhibits his arrogant ignorance when he states that Hinduism and Islam never stimulated their followers to study India, its languages, history, people, or natural resources as the Bible inspired Europeans. In reality it was the Hindu mathematics which was transmitted to Europe by Islamic scholars which started the very European renaissance. And modern linguistics including computational linguistics owes its origin and development to Panini and Kerala mathematicians as well as logicians. The only additional input that Europeans added was the racial categorization which visited upon humanity some of its worst scourges in history in the form of Nazi holocaust and Rwandan genocide. And this distinctly European contribution, which Mangalwadi claims as having Biblical roots, is neither scientific nor very flattering to Christianity as a religion. Again Mangalwadi errs when he states that it was Bible through European colonialism that made India a nation-state in the modern sense. In fact the idea of Indian nation state defies the European idea of nation-state which was based on rigid monocultural identity. As B.R.Ambedkar the chief architect of Indian constitution has pointed out in an elaborate discussion that the integrity of India is based more on its spiritual culture rather than the colonial infrastructural frameworks that the British created for their own interest. From the beginning Indian unity has been based on its respect and acceptance of pluralism – something that the modern West including US is trying hard to come to terms with and which is resisted by fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and his ideological clone Mangalwadi. Mangalwadi claims that the "missionaries embraced, loved, and served the racially different "lower" castes and Dravidians." But documented evidence suggests that missionaries only saw the impoverished social conditions of the `lower' castes and the fabricated Dravidian race identity as opportunities for conversion rather than showing on them genuine love and respect for their culture. For example the book documents how Caldwell considered Dravidians as inherently endowed with `the density of their ignorance' which he laments is the `chief obstacle to their evangelization'. So much for love and respect that missionaries have for the fellow human being! He states that "The oppressed do hate their oppressors, but that privilege is not available to Christians..." How does he explain the centuries of Christian oppression - from the times of Roman imperialism, to the genocides of Native Americans, the slavery of Africans, and colonization of Asians? Even today, American civic society is highly divided along race lines. The churches are almost entirely segregated - Blacks, Hispanics, Koreans, Indians and Whites each have own separate churches. Before wagging the finger at others and exporting "solutions", US based evangelists like Mangalwadi should work on solving Christianity's internal problems at home..." Rajiv follows up: "Mangalwadi champions the missionaries are helping the labor class in India. Below is a counter example of the devastation they cause, this example sent to me by someone named Bharat Nair. It shows their role in plagiarizing India's manufacturing advantages in order to help the industrial revolution in Europe: For example, see Cotton: The Biography of a Revolutionary Fiber By Stephen Yafa p.30)  "As for the Indian methods of  "animalizing" cotton [i.e. giving cotton the texture similar to animal skins], they remained mysterious to most European printers until much later than might be expected - for seventy years after the arrival of chintz. Ironically, it was a man of the cloth, Jesuit Father Coeurdoux, who betrayed these fiercely guarded secrets. In 1742 the French cleric took advantage of his missionary posting on the Coromandel coast to gain the trust of Indian master dyers whom he had converted to Catholicism. They confided their secret pricess to him with an understanding that he would never reveal it. Coeurdoux immediately gave a detailed description in a step-by-step letter published in France. In a blink, three thousand years of clandestine artisan practice became public knowledge."     This is the same priest described in Ananda Ranga Pillai's description of the destruction of Vedapuri Iswaran temple in Pondicherry" October 8 "Ecstasy, possession, and spiritual realization: Yoga of Dance" Udaya shares: "....Christ repackaged for Hindus? Christ who is at heart only a Hindu? Hindu Christ for the whole world? Since its inception in 1988, Shobana Jeyasingh Dance Company has worked throughout the United Kingdom and internationally, producing and touring dance works by its artistic director and choreographer, Shobana Jeyasingh. Each year, the company engages with up to 30,000 people through performances and a range of education projects. Shobana Jeyasingh is acclaimed for her pioneering work in choreography. She deploys her South Asian roots to create work that is uniquely British. The dance itself is ground-breaking and contemporary in style but draws on many traditional forms and influences such as Ballet or Bharata Natyam, a centuries-old Asian classical dance form. This produces a language of movement with which people from all cultures can identify..." October 9 'BORNEO TRIBE PRACTICES ITS OWN KIND OF HINDUISM' - NYT Subject: "BORNEO TRIBE PRACTICES ITS OWN KIND OF HINDUISM" - NYT Date: Monday, September 26, 2011, 7:37 AM ...

RMF Summary: Week of July 18 - 24, 2011

July 18

Communal Violence Bill Friends, The Communal Violence Bill is a dangerous, divisive bill. If it becomes law the fall out will be serious. One cannot discuss anything about the...

July 20

Dalit Human Rights Movements in Ayiroor village The following email was received from someone named Salam: I used to comment regularly around 2003-2005 while you were writing in Sulekha.com on the...

July 20 Book Review in Kumudam Jyothisham 22/7/11 After persistent efforts f Srinivasan reports: "Kumudam Jyothisham, 22.8.2011, a reputed Tamil weekly magazine, has published a half page book review of 'Breaking India'.This magazine has a reach of some one lakh plus subscribers. Many may wonder why a Astrology magazine? The editor of the magazine, Shri A.M.Rajagoplan over the years, has been writing consistently editorials in national issues..." This laudable effort attracted a lot of positive feedback. July 21 The Leela Samson Scandal - Extract from "Breaking India"   Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines,"... The thread below produced a lot of discussion. We will try to cover this in a separate thread. July 21 On Beliefnet.com: 'Holy Spirit is not the same as Shakti or Kundalini http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/Articles/Holy-Spirit-is-not-the\ -same-as-Shakti-or-Kundalini.aspx?p=1 ... " July 21 Inculturation - a strategy document I recently came across a document by one Fr Alfred Maravilla. This prompted me to quickly trawl through the thread in this Group on inculturation to see if any... July 21 Review in Amar Ujala influential Hindu paper http://tinyurl.com/3vuwd2a <http://tinyurl.com/3vuwd2a> or http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QOIlTnZobVhCXMvgzIp0vFpdf_ycGtU2f2tVkjB9DGd\ ... followup link: Re: Review in Amar Ujala influential Hindu paper - link access issue Try alternate link below to read the amar ujala article: www.gayatri.info/amarujala.pdf Rajiv: even better, if file gets uploaded to the www.BreakingIndia.com... July 21 Hillary boosts Leela Sampson http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/22211910/Kathakali-for-Hillary.html <http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/22211910/Kathakali-for-Hillary.html> Was her visit purely... July 23 More Money than God Chitra shares:  I urge you to read this excellent New York Times book review ( details below) that I hesitate to copy here in its entirety because it runs seven pages long. ... It is precisely these kinds of books that must be made available in India to mobilize grassroots awareness to counter the growing infestation of missionaries.  They provide invaluable validation to Indian writers saying the same things. The Victim Brigade that paints opposition to proselytization as originating from unhinged "Hindutvawadis"  will find it harder to counter facts documented by authors named Janet and Jason...   July 24  {Breaking India} 2005: NY Conf. on Re-imagining Hinduism Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines," Amaryllis... July 24 Soft conversion in the name of rural development in Chattisgarh Ganesh shares: Christian aid launches solar lighting for the rural poor in Chattisgarh. ...   July 24 Breaking India in Spiritual Discourse Lecture Title: The Importance of India to Krishna Devotees URL: http://www.bvks.com/2011/07/the-importance-of-india-to-krishna-devotees/ There is a very nice...

RMF Summary: Week of November 22-28, 2012

Nov 23 [New Thread]

U-Turn example: Meditation experiences in Buddhism and Catholicism Chandramouli shares another case of U-Turn: " Becoming a Tibetan Buddhist nun is not a typical life choice for a child of an Italian Catholic police officer from Brooklyn, New York. Nevertheless, in February of 1988 I knelt in front of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala, India, as he cut a few locks of my hair (the rest had already been shaved), symbolizing my renunciation of lay life. I lived in the vows of a Buddhist nun for a year, in the course of spending two years living in Buddhist monasteries in Nepal and India. Including my years of lay practice, I spent twenty years of my adult life practicing Buddhism, before returning to the Catholicism into which I had been born and baptized... ...Over the years, I have found that much of what I learned about and experienced of Buddhist meditation during those years enriches my prayer life as a Christian.... " Nov 24 White Hindus - Sarma on Huff Post Deepak Sarma, Associate Professor at Case Western and list administrator for RISA, has published an article on  Huffington Post entitled "White Hindu Converts: Mimicry or Mockery?" In addition to the comments below, it occurs to me that he is employing classic techniques of demonization, in an attempt to engender doubt about the validity of an entire swath of Hindu practitioners, both in themselves and in Indian-born and diaspora Hindus... Below find several of my responses. I'm sure I'll be contributing more, as I have experienced racism in Nepali temples.... ..."Deepak Sarma, who got his Ph.D. under Wendy Doniger, and is the moderator of the RISA-l discussion, chastised Antonio De Nicolas for supporting the petition and sent him warnings to stop further posts that criticized RISA members.... .... see his current and very crude rant against non-Indian Hindus as racist and anti-Hindu, and in the service of a Christian agenda opposing any acceptance of Dharma traditions. The only other possibility that I can imagine for his screed is that he would be in the service of Indian nationalists. Many, many westerners have embraced Hindu beliefs and practices, and live their lives accordingly. Manish responds: "... given that Sarma comes from the Wendy Doninger pack of hyenas, it isn't surprising that he slips in an offensively contrived conclusion, disguised as a question, in the midst of innocuous and sensible-sounding stuff. So, he slips in an insinuation (the text in red) even as he pretends to make saner comments before or after it.  Thus, in Sarma's warped Doningerised mind, everyone is forever a prisoner of their own religious history..." Another thread follows up on this HP post: Two Responses to Sarma's HuffPost "White Hindu Converts: Mimicry or Two very thoughtful columns have been published in response to Deepak Sarma's Huffington Post article, "White Hindu Converts: Mimicry or Mockery?" The earlier... The earlier has been written by Amod Lele, entitled "In Defense of White Hindu Converts." ..The second column is "Mimicry, mockery or mumukṣutva? A response to Deepak Sarma," by Jeffery D. Long, who earlier raised multiple criticisms and questions in the comments section of the HP article,.. November 25 The Kalavantulu of Coastal Andhra Pradesh Dear Friends, One of my friends who just completed a course on classical Indian music at IIT Gandhinagar sent me the paper I have attached with this mail, 'Memory and the Recovery of Identity : Living Histories and the Kalavantulu of Coastal Andhra Pradesh' by Davesh Soneji. It forms a part of his book, 'Unfinished Gestures: Devadasis, Memory, and Modernity in South India'. Davesh Soneji is the Associate Professor of South Asian Religions at McGill University ... ... The paper makes for a very informative read and there were several times while reading it when I was reminded of Rajiv ji's work in "Breaking India" with regard to the colonial discrediting of the devadasi culture and it's art forms, and the later purging of Hindu motifs in Bharatnatyam by the likes of Leela Samson.... Here a YT video link [the uploader has prevented embedding, so I can't preview it here, sorry.]   Kavita responds: "Thank you for sharing this valuable information Sumantgaaru. Kalavantulu left behind a legacy and this dance form is now called VILASINI NATYAM. It has been painstakingly revived from its death throes (due to the unjust Devadasi Act) by Guru Padmashree Swapnasundari gaaru..." Sumant comments: "Thank you so much for your mail !  The videos were brilliant ! The perfect combination of music and dance had such a harmony to it...." [We take moment to silently remember the victims of the Nov 26 terrorist attack on Mumbai, as well as the many heroes that day revealed. Om Shanti.] Nov 26 (Mumbai) Evangelical Tycoon Gul Kripalani takes center-stage at 26/11 event  Ravi comments: *(Mumbai) Evangelical Tycoon Gul Kripalani takes center-stage at 26/11 Memorial Event* See last page of today's Rediff article: ...    .... More details about Gul Kripalani here: 'Christian businessmen must talk about Jesus' | The Christian ... www.christianmessenger.in/‘christian-businessmen-must-talk-about-j... Dec 30, 2010 – Gul Kripalani: Talk about Jesus in marketplace. By Pallavi Bhattacharya. IT took Gul Kripalani, a Sindhi businessman, a while to see the hand of... Nov 26 Life of Pi - lessons for Hindus Arun posts: Equal-equal Hindus might feel encouraged by the attention paid to that idea in Ang Lee's visually magnificent movie, "The Life Of Pi". A sampling of Christian reviews of the movie should open their eyes. Here is a fairly comprehensive one. Here is a quote from the post above, from the Christian Broadcasting Network: "While Christian audiences will be thrilled with the amount of onscreen time devoted to the cause of Christ and what it means to believe, they will also be quite disappointed as Islam and Hinduism receive equal representation." You should read the above just to glimpse the Protestant venom against Catholics! Let alone Hindus.   Venkat presents a passage for the related book: "I am not sure if the below passage from the book "Life of Pi" is told in the movie. Its worth reading. v http://hindus.livejournal.com/77001.html On Hinduism - from "Life of Pi" I am currently reading "Life of Pi", a novel by Yann Martel. While reading it I came across a passage which captures beautifully the essence of Hinduism and what it means to be a Hindu. I could relate to it so well that I couldn't resist reproducing it here. So here it goes: "But religion is more than rite and ritual. There is what the rite and ritual stand for. Here too I am a Hindu. The universe makes sense to me through Hindu eyes. There is Brahman, the world soul, the sustaining frame upon which is woven warp and weft, the cloth of being, with all its decorative elements of space and time. There is Brahman nirguna, without qualities, which lies beyond understanding, beyond approach; with our poor words we sew a suit for it - One, Truth, Unity, Absolute, Ultimate Reality, Ground of Being - and try to make it fit, but Brahman nirguna always bursts the seams. We are left speechless. But there is also the Brahman saguna, with qualities, where the suit fits. Now we call it Shiva, Krishna, Shakti, Ganesha we can approach it with some understanding; we can discern certain attributes - loving, merciful, frightening - and we feel the gentle pull of relationship..."    Vedam posts a review by a RMF member: "... In one scene, after Pi barely escapes the tiger's attack, stranded on a makeshift raft, reasons as only a Hindu would - that the tiger's nature is to kill and eat - for that is his Karma. Unencumbered by a philosophy that would put man in charge of all animals (thus in a position to decide the tiger's fate), Pi proceeds to do the unthinkable for a vegetarian - catch a fish, and kill it, to feed the tiger, despite the knowledge that keeping the tiger alive is suicidal for Pi: there could not be a better implicit message of duty/dharma. His breakdown at killing a fish is an explicit ode to the Dharmic credo of ahimsa. The trails and tribulations that follow with forlorn Christian and Islamic messages are perhaps the author's attempt to seek the divine from a syncretized viewpoint that is only possible in a Hindu, and would have monotheists squirming in their seats..."  Dvai adds: "My nine year old nephew analyzed pi as follows after having watched the movie --Pi represents the bridge between divinity and the individual soul...the circle representing the universe and the diameter the individual. It was interesting to see a movie evoke such questioning in one so young. Personally I found the novel a tad tedious. Also I found the attempts at religious syncretism a bit cliched..." Carpentier comments: "The film is a wonderful allegoric epic. The tiger is the ahankara while Pi is the infinite, nameless Brahman that is one with the universe and hence indestructible. The floating island on which he lands is the universe of matter, life giving during the day, deadly at night (prabhava-pralaya) in which the soul is entrapped. The boat is the physical body which takes the Self and its ego across the ocean of Maya-Samsara..." Western Universalism and Top-N lists shivadeepa1 posted: Exhibit 1: Foreign Policy magazine came out with a list of top-100 global thinkers recently.  It is an interesting exercise to go thru this list to see who's in and out, and their rank. Thanks to BD, we can start to see patterns. This list is from a western p.o.v, but it implicitly claims to speak for the globe, and most readers are conditioned to accept this at face value ... ... Exhibit 2: TIME came up with its top 100 novels of 'all time' but comes with a specific cut-off date :) ... Exhibit 3: Every school kid in India [at least in the 70s-80s] was indoctrinated with the "Top-7 list of the wonders of the ancient world"  ...Generations of Indian children were taught that that there were no wonders worth mentioning in ancient India (or in neo-India except the Mughal Taj), or South-east Asia or South America, but remarkably, we all bunched together around the middle-east and Mediterranean... Rajiv Malhotra responded: "Rajiv comment: A very important post. People should ponder and add substantive comments. Same also applies to international awards, institutions, laws, aesthetics, etc. WU is normative across civic society, with the exception of pop culture which is not where power resides. See my two videos on lectures at india international center in 2005. I explain the difference between pop culture and deep culture. The latter is where WU resides." Arun notes: "...It is our educational system's defect to elevate the ancient Greek list to something other than a fact about ancient Greece. As far as I know, we have no surviving travelogues from ancient India, and so we do not have ancient Indian opinion on ancient wonders." November 27 [Continuing thread from Nov 22] Request for RigVeda and Shiva translation/interpretation of involuti Rajiv Malhotra posts: Rig Veda: Aghamarshana rishi experienced the process of involution and described it in Rig Veda ( X.190.1-X.190.3). These verses speak in a very riddled manner of involution. And then of the movement of descent and ascent (samvatsara) and consequentely the alteration of light and darkness (ahoratrani) ordained by the ruler of Time. Then it speaks of the creation of the sun and moon, heaven, the intermediate world and then the world of svar, the heaven of descending light. Can someone find out a good translation/interpretation that I could cite to show the earliest sources for involution? Shiv-Sutras: Unmesha and nimesha are the terms used to describe involution and evolution. I need an expert interpretation of the text in this regard. This concept is the very foundation of Ken Wilber's claim to originality in his Integral Theory. He got this from Sri Aurobindo but denies it. I discovered that Sri Aurobindo got it from Swami Vivekananda  Kannan responds: "I can only hint at some pointers which may be pursued and tried. The concept of involution is very evident in what is called bhuta-shuddhi where the Gross Elements are "dissolved" into the Subtle Elements. Thus prthvi, the grossest, is dissolved into ap (subtler than that), which is next dissolved into tejas, and so on. The Sankhyan order is followed here. Hence after aakaasha, we have successive dissolutions into manas, ahamkaara, mahat (same as buddhi), prakrti (also called mulaprakrti/avyakta/pradhaana). And then finally into purusha/paramapurusha...." Murthy adds: "Dear Rajivji, having no immediate time to research fully into the subject, I just refer you, as others have done, to some pointers. Adishankara's Panchikarana is a compendium on the subject. The Vedas detail the subject in the Upanishads; in particular, the BrihadaaraNyaka and the Chandogya; which are exposited - again - by Adishankara..." Kesava comments: "..I thought Aghamarshana Suktam is from Krishna Yajurveda - Taittriya. I practice Aghamarshana Suktam during snanacharna, especially in tirtha sthala. I dont know if Yajur vedic suktam is different from that in Rig. Though I do not classify myself in "expert" group, I would like to point out what I understood from the purohita who taught me this suktam..." Jaideep comments: "Regarding your question on Rigveda, the best place to look for an authentic interpretation is the Sayana Bhasya, so I am giving below, the Bhaasya on the Aghamarshana Sookta along with my word-to-word translation. Dr. H. N. Bhat, who is a Sanskrit Scholar at IFP (cc'ed), very kindly helped me in the translation.." Rajiv Malhotra thanks those who responded with concrete help: "I thank the few persons who provided solid information. This has been very useful..." Chittaranjan adds: "..Evolution and involution of the tattvas are the very basis of creation and dissolution in both Samkhya and Vedanta. The principle on which evolution and involution are based is called `satkaryavada': the doctrine of the pre-existence of the effect in the cause. In the schools of Vedanta that hold Brahman to be the material cause of the universe,..." Vish posts: "...RV ( X.190.1-X.190.3) speaks of Cosmic creations  of layers from subtle to gross. (Harvard calls it a Cosmogonic hymn). (1) Here is a translation that I found on the internet, which literally appears correct: From blazing Ardor [of Purusha?], Cosmic Order came and Truth; from thence was born the obscure night; from thence the Ocean with its billowing waves. [x.190.1].." This thread below is a really important one because it talks about an event that brings together Rajiv Malhotra and other leaders of various decentralized institutions of Hinduism under one roof to discuss some really critical issues. We plan to cover this thread in-depth in a separate post. November 28 [continuing from last week] Very successful Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha, Ahmedabad I just returned from India after attending the Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha's 5th Bi-annual Conference in Ahmedabad. I was fortunate to be invited to deliver a... November 28 [Continuing thread from November 22] Angana Chatterji hosted at Harvard by Michael Witzel In Breaking India, Rajiv & Aravindan write about some US academics who produce literature with questionable funding that could aid in the disintegration of... Bhattacharya_S provides a brilliant, and extremely detailed investigative report on the activities of Angana, her husband Shapiro, and Fai over the last decade. We carry only some excerpts here [click the link to the original thread if you are interested in the complete details]: "...What is most confusing and troubling about the ongoing Angana Chatterji story is the continued backing and support she receives from top levels of U.S. government and academia. However, her relationship with Directorate of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI)/Pakistani government agent Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai, as well as Fai’s own bizarre story are instructive in understanding Chatterji's status in such circles. Chapter 14 of Breaking India describes how Chatterji called for foreign intervention while providing testimony regarding events in Orissa before a U.S. Congressional committee investigating international human rights in 2008. The Congressional committee was chaired by Congressmen Trent Franks and Joe Pitts. BI identifies Trent Franks as a strong proponent of U.S. intervention in India regarding caste/human rights issues, and as a board member of Dalit Freedom Network (DFN), while Joe Pitts, a Christian fundamentalist, is described as a fierce critic of India’s anti-conversion laws with a pro-Pakistani bent. Congressman Pitts has also worked with Congressman Rick Santorum in promoting DFN, which, as discussed at length in BI, is essentially a front for Christian evangelical interests... ...Despite U.S. lawmakers claims that they did not know of Fai’s ISI/Pakistani government links, he was a naturalized U.S. citizen and very much a political ‘insider’ in America. His Washington-based Kashmir American Council (KAC), founded in 1990 and located a few blocks away from the White House, regularly drew Pakistani dignitaries as well as U.S. scholars and powerful Congressmen to its various events, while Fai’s wife (a Chinese Muslim) worked for the U.S. government’s Environmental Protection Agency. In 2005, Fai reportedly received the Republican Senatorial Medal of Freedom, and in 2007 he was given the American Spirit Medal, both from the U.S. National Republican Senatorial Committee. Fai himself was reportedly frequently invited to United Nations (UN) conferences during this period,.. ... in 2004, Joe Pitts introduced a bill before Congress that supported Pakistani interests in Kashmir, and called for U.S. intervention in the region. Shockingly, the bill was reportedly introduced only a few days after Pitts received a financial contribution from Fai’s KAC. Pitts has long been involved in Pakistani issues, and even traveled to Pakistan to meet personally with president at the time Pervez Musharraf in 2002 (as well as on earlier occasions). Pitts, a self-proclaimed “champion of Pakistan”, has served as Chairman of the Congressional Pakistan Caucus, created to safeguard Pakistani interests (Dan Burton has also held this post). Inexplicably however, Pitts has served simultaneously on both Congressional India and Pakistan caucuses, which some suggest was to help ease passage of pro-Pakistan (and anti-India) legislation... ... The picture that seems to emerge is that the ISI/Pakistani government arranged for Fai to testify before U.S. Congressional committees presided over and/or containing pro-Pakistani members such as Dan Burton. Fai’s ‘expert testimony’ was either directly prepared or approved by the ISI/Pakistan. And in turn, based at least in part on Fai’s testimony (and while they received money from the ISI/Pakistan), Burton, Joe Pitts (and perhaps others) continually pushed for Pakistani interests in Kashmir at the upper levels of U.S. government.... ...Surprisingly, after investigation and trial, in March 2012, Fai was sentenced to only 2 years in jail, for charges related to his attempts to cover up his association with the ISI/Pakistan and for tax violations. This punishment seems like a slap on the wrist for what appears to be a decades-long infiltration... ... However, her removal from CIIS was not for any connection to Fai, but rather for academic misconduct. Many likely assumed that Chatterji’s dismissal was related to her link to Fai, especially since news of her suspension coincided with details of Fai’s arrest (and his contacts in academia and government) becoming public. However, it now appears that her association with Fai was either ignored, not investigated, or not reported on. And amazingly, she turned up again this year (2012) in March at a U.S. Congressional committee hearing to testify about human rights in South Asia, where she provided predictably biased, distorted, anti-Hindu/anti-India testimony regarding Kashmir, religious conversion/Orissa, the 2002 Gujarat riots, and other topics... ... The transcript (and video) of the 2012 hearing contains an almost laughable exchange between Congressman Pitts and Chatterji during which, in the space of a few sentences, they effectively attempt to clear one another of any wrongdoing regarding their associations with Fai and the ISI/Pakistani government... ... Throughout the 2012 Congressional hearing, however, Congressmen Pitts and Franks make no effort to disguise their own pro-Christian and anti-Hindu biases, which are easily detected in the wording of their questions (to Chatterji and others). Chatterji is of course more than willing to indulge...  .... Noting her consistently anti-Hindu and anti-India stand, and her proximity to Fai, The Hindu American Foundation lodged a complaint against Angana Chatterji's involvement in the March 2012 Congressional hearing, in which the group even cited evidence pointing to her direct contact with Pakistan/ISI ... ... It is astounding that Chatterji continues to be regarded as a credible expert on human rights in India, but this only speaks to the biases of those who purport to ‘investigate’ human rights. She is still apparently in the good graces of the top levels of U.S. government, while in academia, she appears to have gotten some form of a promotion, moving from CIIS to the higher profile (and much wealthier) institution... .... At the time of their suspension, the two were the only full-time faculty members in the department in which they were found to have created and cultivated a bizarre, cult-like environment among students. The couple also frequently gave grades to students arbitrarily, based on non-existent work. Importantly, Shapiro himself has also been an invitee/speaker at Fai's Kashmir conferences, and a vocal critic of India's policy in Kashmir... .... Shapiro and Chatterji's student cult would thus apparently mobilize to actively demonstrate against the Indian government. The shadowy husband and wife duo have no doubt been instrumental in turning CIIS from an institution founded to promote the teachings of Sri Aurobindo to one in which anti-India propaganda and rhetoric is preached (discussed in BI).... ... Chatterji even apparently first met Fai at CIIS in 2003, when she claims he visited the university where she was teaching to give a talk [http://tlhrc.house.gov/docs/transcripts/03-21-2012_South_Asia.pdf , see page 48]... ... In this regard its notable how the whole Fai affair was dramatically downplayed by U.S. media, despite the profound, far-reaching implications of the saga. There are hardly any detailed reports on the internet among top newspapers, and information is always incomplete. For instance, there is little or no mention of the apparently close and long-standing relationship between Fai and the U.N./international human rights community, and it is extremely difficult to find any information about this aspect of his subterfuge... ... The issues discussed in this post may be appreciated in broader contexts of anti-India nexuses and strategies discussed in BI. Figures 11.5, and the various diagrams in Chapters 13 and 14 of BI (as well as the text of these Chapters) are particularly useful in understanding ties between ‘liberal’ left-wing academicians and 'conservative' right-wing Christian evangelical elements, who are seemingly at odds over a variety of issues, but united in their staunch anti-Hindu and anti-India stand. (Note: I referred to a number of articles on the web in writing this post that I did not mention. If anyone is interested in references, I'll be glad to provide them.) " Sumant posts:  I was sent the link below [from 2011] that discusses issues that have come up on this thread, and indeed on many other similar threads in the past. The author of the blog lists "Breaking India" first amongst his favourite sites. Not sure if he is already a member of this forum. Abhimanyu [Nice name!] adds: "I am a part of this forum and have learnt quite a lot from the information shared by Mr. Malhotra and others on this forum.  I am thankful to Mr. Malhotra and some of the other Hindu leaders for inspiring youth like me to create blogs exposing the nexus of Indian Communists/Christian Missionaries/Islamists around the world..."   .