This is the latest in our series of blogs dealing with the problem of digestion of Hinduism, which is quite different from both inclusivism and conversion to Abrahamic faiths. For example, in Kerala, the digestion of many aspects of Hinduism in general, and the festival of Onam, in particular have been covered in the last few days. This post is part of the discussion on Phil Goldberg's 'American Veda' has been shown to be an example of this problem. You can find Part-1 of the current discussion here. However, many Hindus live in denial for a variety of reasons. You can find the first set of posts in 2012 on Goldberg's American Veda: Analysis-2 that summarizes the first set of feedback on AV is here, and Analysis-1, is the very first summary, where AV was introduced to the forum, and shows Goldberg's attempted defence of his work.
There are several other dicussions of 'digestion' in the forum that can be accessed by clicking the keyword. Another external blog that was among the very first to comment on AV is the 'Digesting Veda blog'.
For those who want to get the full details on digestion of Hinduism, the links (total of 9 posts) provided above can be traversed in the following order:
1. Familiarize yourself with digestion activities in Kerala
2. Understand how digestion differs from both inclusivism and conversion
3. American Veda: start with the DigestingVeda blog
4. Then read Analysis-1 and Analysis-2
5. Read Part-1 and Part-2 of the current discussion on how American Veda is being supported by Hindu intellectuals (this one and the previous one)
6. Examine other discussions of digestion in the forum.
7. Don't stop there! Blog, discuss and educate others about this serious problem.
In Part-2 of our current discussion below, we examine the foreword and contents of Phil Goldberg's book 'American Veda' shared in this blog, and then see how Hindu intellectuals respond to it.
Inside the 'American Veda' - celebration of uturners
Subra shares: "...
Just the first 25 pages. We can see the shoddy scholarship, the Sanskrit
mistranslations being used to set the stage for digestion, the
reductionism, and the justification for digestion. Once this is done,
the remaining chapters celebrates one u-turner after another..."
Rajiv responds:
"Thanks for a good analysis. People who are in doubt should read the analysis:
It
is sad how many so-called supporters of our cause failed to understand
digestion at work, and went around proudly promoting the author. One
such man called me... to say: "What if we get him to state he is against the Aryan theory and against missionaries"?
I told this man he does not understand digestion. It is not about being
against missionaries, being against Aryan theory, and so forth.
If
a thief is taking your assets and digesting them by characterizing them
as belonging to others, does it help you because he praises your home,
expresses anger at some of your opponents, etc and other unrelated
things.
THE DIGESTER LOVES WHAT HE IS DIGESTING OTHERWISE HE WONT DIGEST IT. Why am I unable to get this across???
These
people among us are so STUPID and ignorant of our own history where we
have seen so many westerners support us, praise us, etc precisely to
dupe such IDIOTS. By now we ought to have no more fools but sadly we do.
I
am confident I can get a statement from Witzel opposing missionaries.
In fact he told me as such in person many years ago. But is that the
issue???
Can Hinduism be rescued by a bandwagon of fools, who are
easily swayed, lazy to read and understand issues, and in awe of
someone supporting them with glamor.
I hope people who have promoted his works will now do penance by promoting the link above with greater enthusiasm."
Aditya has a useful suggestion:
"... Does anyone want in this group want to write an "alternative" review for
AV on Amazon with a mention of "Being Different" as a book to read?
... for someone who has [read the book], this would be
one small step in the right direction."
css shares feedback from another person who disagreed that 'American Veda is digestion'. Please read the details in the forum. We only provide a gist of the arguments here:
1. He acknowledges the impact of Indian spirituality on America
2. He is not working on behalf of missionaries
3. He is not a practitioner in the Ken Wilber mould
4. Sloppy scholarship does not prove digestion
Rajiv comment: The above looks at DIRECT digestion only. Does not
understand the subtlety and multi layered processes at work. This
simplistic view is quiet common and hence I know my work is cut out for
me.
PhilG valorizes digesters - he himself does not have to be one. Every
digester has a coterie of cheerleaders supporting him, building is brand
value, legitimizing him. These cheerleaders might not be smart enough
to do the heavy thinking like a digester. They are his support team.
PhilG is such a cheerleader. Wilber and Keating are examples of top tier
digesters that PhilG celebrates. Good analogies are:
- most sepoys merely suck up to another thinker and hence build brand
credibility for a major thinker and are not capable of doing this
thinking themselves.
- People in Indian media are supporting X but not doing the nasty things
personally that X does. Yet we oppose such media persons. They are part
of the entourage of X that makes X important.
The problem .... is that he has not read Keating or Wilber,
for example...What he sees is PhilG praising these folks in ways that
seem reasonable. This is why incomplete knowledge is dangerous... I have separate
volumes in the pipeline on each of these men, along with many others.
The history of PhilG work with me... (Read the original and complete information in the forum).
...
5) When the book came out I was shocked. He took all my info on the uturners and made them look like heroes.
This inverts my thesis. He celebrates the process that I consider a
problem...
6) ...PG's book has a couple of pages on me. I am
depicted as someone who complains about uturns. He is dismissive of my
complaint. He includes me to be able to say "I have already factored
what Malhotra has to say". This is a tactic to dispose of a serious
issue without properly dealing with it.
....point on PG criticizing missionaries is simply
irrelevant. It further shows shallowness of understanding this theater.
...Witzel also opposes proselytizers, and so do most
western scholars we fight - Doniger, et al. By the standards of
sophisticated western scholars, proselytizing is crude, old fashion,
meant for extreme right wing christianity. These folks are liberal left
wing and hence anti-proselytizing.
....As I said
before: People who digest from the liberal left wing side are not
proselytizers or in support of them. For instance, Wilber is too
sophisticated to operate at the evangelism level. Nor are any of the
neuro-scientists and cognitive scientists appropriating Hindu and
Buddhist ideas and practices. ... understand
the complexity of liberal/leftist ideas of dharma and not try to collapse
all western approaches as proselytizing. (For one thing Jews are not
christians or proselytizers and yet many of them are digesters!)
It is sad that while I must invest years of rigor to get one book at a
time out, there are "supporters" who cant wait. .... On limited knowledge they align
themselves with the very same digesters I spend all my time
investigating."
Showing posts with label Father Keating. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Father Keating. Show all posts
Please understand digestion!
This is another brief but important discussion on digestion initiated by Rajiv Malhotra in October 2013. Here is the link to the original thread on the forum. The forum has discussed this important issue several times, and you can find those forum discussions summarized via this search. What is remarkable about this particular post are the names named and specific instances of digestion with evidence provided. Question remains and must be asked: what do we as Indians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and Sikhs do about this digestion and appropriation?
"This example is what digestion of advaita into Christianity does"
Rajiv comments on this particular online article "Dharma in the Christian West" (working link thanks to Bhagwan) that on the surface appears to celebrate Hinduism in the west, but in reality, is yet another example of digestion.
"Most naive Hindus would go about celebrating that this Christian has shown great love for our tradition. It turns out that Father Keating (in the pic)
(link source: http://theinterfaithobserver.org)
is the prime digestor of maharishi Mahesh Yogi's TM and various other Hindu things into what he calls Christian Centering Prayer that has spread into a few hundred centers across. Plans are now to export it into India where it will become a rage among upper strata Anglicied Indians who will feel they are now sophisticated by adopting this American invention.
This is the sort of stuff in the book American Veda that has so many Indians jumping up and down in glee. Ditto with Lisa Miller's article and a hundred other examples.
Please understand digestion!!!"
Maria responds:
"... it is not surprising to meet parishioners in [Episcopal] congregation who attend yoga classes or belong to a Tibetan Buddhist sangha.". Then, neither real epicospalian, nor good yoga practiotioners, nor truely tibetans! Unfortunately, this is the tendency in the west, which is dragging or trying to drag the whole world with them.
.... what I clearly saw is the danger of this tendency....and the evidence of this digestion....so many wolves under the skin of lambs, as they say.... Most of the people are not aware of what they are doing by being so "fusion", but what it is behind this, I feel, is a "fishing of souls" (harvesting, like they say), but I would say fishing because they throw a fish hook, the hook of sameness, and fishes go running for it.
I found it dangerous because this way of presenting the things aims to/ and may attract to:
- hindus/dharmics with no very clear ideas and concepts in their minds: they can be brought to the "sameness" point. And from there to conversion, there is only one step.
- disappointed christians who have ran towards new-age movements looking for traces of sort-of spirituality
It is another threat different from the mainstream christians. But another threat, even more dangerous because of the "common points" that they squeeze to get from a barren land to present it as "see! we also have a profound philosophy!".
What to do? ... what about us, anonymous people, who don´t have any position of influence? "
Rajiv the follows up in a separate thread.
"It is important to be able to understand the celebration of digestion at work in writings such as this article from an influential interfaith journal, and other writings related to it. It praises Father Keating, but Keating has digested Transcendental Meditation into Christian Centering Prayer after he personally and his benedictine monks from Massachusetts learned TM from Maharishi in the 1970s. (I have a tape recording of Keating's speeches thanking Maharishi for teaching something not found in Christianity - thanks to a friend who was present at the time.) Now Keating's movement teaches it as core Christianity and the history of this is traced from a Christian text called "The cloud of unknowing" all the way back to Jesus.
The article then locates that "similar" things to Hindu non-dualism had already existed in certain medieval Christian mystics. But two key points are conveniently missed:
First, these so-called Christian mystical teachings need a great deal of creativity for connecting the dots to make them non-dual without internal contradictions.
Second, these obscure mystics were rejected by Christianity at their time and thereafter, and only recently got excavated after Hinduism's influence, and hoisted up as a way to dilute and digest Hinduism.
It then goes on to explain that "Jesus is the exemplar of non-dual consciousness", citing reinterpretations of the Bible to support the claim.
Please note that these are the stages of UTurns: From praise, to various degrees of digestion. This is why J. Krishnamurti has vanished from the scene as his ideas simply got digested. RK Mission in USA is largely consisting of old folks, because their meditation which had made them attractive to westerners some decades back is not digested into church sermons and programs thanks to people like Keating. Tantra is being digested into various forms of psychology and clinical therapy. Yoga become Christian Yoga. Vipassna becomes Mindfulness Meditation trademarked by jon-Kabat Zinn and turned into "Western medical breakthroughs". And so on - this is a very long list.
Here's what my own work has entailed:
The first frontier in the 1990s was to point out the blatant Hinduphobia that was/is in the academy/media. At first our very own Hindu leaders did not understand this or want to understand it, as it was disruptive and inconvenient to them. But under consistent pressure from the Hindu public, now there are many persons protesting against Hinduphobia, and its top advocates face opposition from Hindus unlike before.
The second frontier was sharpened in "Breaking India", namely, that India is being subverted systematically by a combination of forces that see its dharmic foundation as the problem to eliminate. Initially people told me this message was too sensational. I had to settle for a small, unknown publisher. But today it is a best-seller as people have made their own observations and realized that these things are indeed happening right now.
The third frontier was BEING DIFFERENT's message that there is something IRREDUCIBLY DIFFERENT we must recognize and not negotiate away, and that this is the foundation for any identity, education, interfaith work or public posturing.
Now we must tackle the fourth frontier: Here we have large numbers of our "leaders" going around promoting books, speakers, scholars, who praise Hinduism the way the tiger praises the deer he has invited to dinner. If you read the above article, its pro-digestion nuance should be clear though subtly presented. This article is meant to make people like us appreciate that the West has "adopted" the East - much like the pagan symbols, ideas, practices got adopted into Christianity. Full of praise for Hinduism's non-duality but also making clear that it is now becoming part and parcel of the Biblical history centrism."
Ashok asks:
"Am I the only one who gets anxious reading these messages?
Initially, I used to keenly await them and learned a lot. And I continue to do so. However, lately, I open these messages with some anxiety. The feeling of helplessness that one might feel while being swallowed up while paralysed but still conscious.
Is there nobody other than Rajivji fighting this? I'm sure the more learned in this group would know of what is being done to resist this digestion. If so, could we hear about some of that. For example, if there has been a response to this article, I would welcome seeing it..."
Rajiv comment:
"Thanks for your honest concerns. The fact is that most persons who feel they defend Hindu dharma are proud of being digested into the West. I dont want to name members here who invite and support authors and give funds to scholars who are in one of the following categories:
1) A digester
2) Praise other digesters, presenting it as "he loves Hinduism and took it to the West".
3) Understand the problem once I spend time to explain it to them. But WILL NOT FIGHT THE SYSTEM. I must end up doing the best I can to fight against mighty opponents.
Many of them in fact side with the other party in any dispute I might have..."
YB adds: "RK Mission in USA is largely consisting of old folks, because their meditation which had made them attractive to westerners some decades back is not digested into church sermons and programs thanks to people like Keating." Should it read....."now digested......."
Rajiv comment: yes, thanks.
"This example is what digestion of advaita into Christianity does"
Rajiv comments on this particular online article "Dharma in the Christian West" (working link thanks to Bhagwan) that on the surface appears to celebrate Hinduism in the west, but in reality, is yet another example of digestion.
"Most naive Hindus would go about celebrating that this Christian has shown great love for our tradition. It turns out that Father Keating (in the pic)
is the prime digestor of maharishi Mahesh Yogi's TM and various other Hindu things into what he calls Christian Centering Prayer that has spread into a few hundred centers across. Plans are now to export it into India where it will become a rage among upper strata Anglicied Indians who will feel they are now sophisticated by adopting this American invention.
This is the sort of stuff in the book American Veda that has so many Indians jumping up and down in glee. Ditto with Lisa Miller's article and a hundred other examples.
Please understand digestion!!!"
Maria responds:
"... it is not surprising to meet parishioners in [Episcopal] congregation who attend yoga classes or belong to a Tibetan Buddhist sangha.". Then, neither real epicospalian, nor good yoga practiotioners, nor truely tibetans! Unfortunately, this is the tendency in the west, which is dragging or trying to drag the whole world with them.
.... what I clearly saw is the danger of this tendency....and the evidence of this digestion....so many wolves under the skin of lambs, as they say.... Most of the people are not aware of what they are doing by being so "fusion", but what it is behind this, I feel, is a "fishing of souls" (harvesting, like they say), but I would say fishing because they throw a fish hook, the hook of sameness, and fishes go running for it.
I found it dangerous because this way of presenting the things aims to/ and may attract to:
- hindus/dharmics with no very clear ideas and concepts in their minds: they can be brought to the "sameness" point. And from there to conversion, there is only one step.
- disappointed christians who have ran towards new-age movements looking for traces of sort-of spirituality
It is another threat different from the mainstream christians. But another threat, even more dangerous because of the "common points" that they squeeze to get from a barren land to present it as "see! we also have a profound philosophy!".
What to do? ... what about us, anonymous people, who don´t have any position of influence? "
Rajiv the follows up in a separate thread.
"It is important to be able to understand the celebration of digestion at work in writings such as this article from an influential interfaith journal, and other writings related to it. It praises Father Keating, but Keating has digested Transcendental Meditation into Christian Centering Prayer after he personally and his benedictine monks from Massachusetts learned TM from Maharishi in the 1970s. (I have a tape recording of Keating's speeches thanking Maharishi for teaching something not found in Christianity - thanks to a friend who was present at the time.) Now Keating's movement teaches it as core Christianity and the history of this is traced from a Christian text called "The cloud of unknowing" all the way back to Jesus.
The article then locates that "similar" things to Hindu non-dualism had already existed in certain medieval Christian mystics. But two key points are conveniently missed:
First, these so-called Christian mystical teachings need a great deal of creativity for connecting the dots to make them non-dual without internal contradictions.
Second, these obscure mystics were rejected by Christianity at their time and thereafter, and only recently got excavated after Hinduism's influence, and hoisted up as a way to dilute and digest Hinduism.
It then goes on to explain that "Jesus is the exemplar of non-dual consciousness", citing reinterpretations of the Bible to support the claim.
Please note that these are the stages of UTurns: From praise, to various degrees of digestion. This is why J. Krishnamurti has vanished from the scene as his ideas simply got digested. RK Mission in USA is largely consisting of old folks, because their meditation which had made them attractive to westerners some decades back is not digested into church sermons and programs thanks to people like Keating. Tantra is being digested into various forms of psychology and clinical therapy. Yoga become Christian Yoga. Vipassna becomes Mindfulness Meditation trademarked by jon-Kabat Zinn and turned into "Western medical breakthroughs". And so on - this is a very long list.
Here's what my own work has entailed:
The first frontier in the 1990s was to point out the blatant Hinduphobia that was/is in the academy/media. At first our very own Hindu leaders did not understand this or want to understand it, as it was disruptive and inconvenient to them. But under consistent pressure from the Hindu public, now there are many persons protesting against Hinduphobia, and its top advocates face opposition from Hindus unlike before.
The second frontier was sharpened in "Breaking India", namely, that India is being subverted systematically by a combination of forces that see its dharmic foundation as the problem to eliminate. Initially people told me this message was too sensational. I had to settle for a small, unknown publisher. But today it is a best-seller as people have made their own observations and realized that these things are indeed happening right now.
The third frontier was BEING DIFFERENT's message that there is something IRREDUCIBLY DIFFERENT we must recognize and not negotiate away, and that this is the foundation for any identity, education, interfaith work or public posturing.
Now we must tackle the fourth frontier: Here we have large numbers of our "leaders" going around promoting books, speakers, scholars, who praise Hinduism the way the tiger praises the deer he has invited to dinner. If you read the above article, its pro-digestion nuance should be clear though subtly presented. This article is meant to make people like us appreciate that the West has "adopted" the East - much like the pagan symbols, ideas, practices got adopted into Christianity. Full of praise for Hinduism's non-duality but also making clear that it is now becoming part and parcel of the Biblical history centrism."
Ashok asks:
"Am I the only one who gets anxious reading these messages?
Initially, I used to keenly await them and learned a lot. And I continue to do so. However, lately, I open these messages with some anxiety. The feeling of helplessness that one might feel while being swallowed up while paralysed but still conscious.
Is there nobody other than Rajivji fighting this? I'm sure the more learned in this group would know of what is being done to resist this digestion. If so, could we hear about some of that. For example, if there has been a response to this article, I would welcome seeing it..."
Rajiv comment:
"Thanks for your honest concerns. The fact is that most persons who feel they defend Hindu dharma are proud of being digested into the West. I dont want to name members here who invite and support authors and give funds to scholars who are in one of the following categories:
1) A digester
2) Praise other digesters, presenting it as "he loves Hinduism and took it to the West".
3) Understand the problem once I spend time to explain it to them. But WILL NOT FIGHT THE SYSTEM. I must end up doing the best I can to fight against mighty opponents.
Many of them in fact side with the other party in any dispute I might have..."
YB adds: "RK Mission in USA is largely consisting of old folks, because their meditation which had made them attractive to westerners some decades back is not digested into church sermons and programs thanks to people like Keating." Should it read....."now digested......."
Rajiv comment: yes, thanks.
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