Aravindan Neelakandan clarifies his positive relationship with Rajiv Malhotra

Posted here is the exchange between Aravindan Neelakandan and Rajiv Malhotra which took place so that the air could be cleared on what Maria Wirth on twitter insinuated with the following tweet.

Maria Wirth: just wondering @RajivMessage,u say "My book Breaking India.." Wud it not be fair 2 say "Our book"with Neelakandan as Co-author? @arvindneela

Well, the background to the above tweet was this tweet from Rajiv Malhotra

My book 'Breaking India' now ranks No. 1 on Amazon under International Relations: http://www.amazon.in/gp/bestsellers/books/1318179031/ref=zg_bs_nav_b_2_1318176031 …

That led Aravindan Neelakandan to issue these two tweets earlier today to clarify

@Sshankara @RajivMessage "does not want to work with u anymore" is WRONG. Working on BI has been a good learning experience.

@Sshankara @RajivMessage @mariawirth1 'doesn't want to work' is WRONG. Coauthoring BI has been a good learning experience.

Here is Aravindan Neelakandan's complete response to the above tweets along with Rajiv Malhotra's comments.

[Rajiv: Maria Wirth (angry because of some unrelated issue I had with her work some time back) has tried to create tension between me and Aravindan Neelakandan on twitter. Aravindan not only rejected her presumption on twitter, but also sent this post as a clarification of his position. He re-joined this egroup after a gap, in order to post this. I encouraged him to do so. Though the main purpose is to clarify the issue of our mutual relationship, Aravindan also takes this opportunity to disagree with my positions of certain unrelated topics - theism/atheism, Subramanian Swamy, and plagiarism by Sanyal. I give my responses below in highlight. Welcome back Aravindan.]

Let me state categorically that when we started the BI project I was not intended to be coauthor and was a research assistant with Infinity. It was Sri. Rajiv Malhotra who voluntarily offered me to be the co-author. [Rajiv: I did this towards the very end when the book was nearing completion; Aravindan at first said he did not deserve it, but later accepted.] It was a graceful gesture and am thankful for that.

I value his original scholarship, its depth and new insight. I do have my differences of opinion with him. But that does not in anyway diminish my respect and administration for him.  

Being an atheist myself I find his criticism of Darwinism ill-founded and have openly expressed my criticism of his saying 'intelligent design' being influenced by Hinduism. As a person who has been working in the field of environment and organic agriculture for more than a decade, I can say that Darwin is profoundly right and only Dharmic religions have the capacity to integrate Darwin in their worldview. Intelligent Design is a camouflage for creationism and the involution Swami Vivekananda talks about including the intelligence being involuted to expand as existence has more in sync with David Bohm's implicate order than the 'intelligent design'.
[Rajiv: 

• Aravindan is certainly entitled to his position as an atheist. 
• My views on Darwin mirror what Sri Aurobindo wrote, which is a much more detailed position than Vivekananda. This is explained in some of my writings - the importance of involution-evolution process, and not the one-way evolution by Darwin. So Darwin is incomplete, as there is no upward feedback loop, which is also important in systems theory. 
• Many Judeo-Christian digesters are now borrowing this Hindu tenet to bridge the gap between "science and religion", a gap that never existed between dharma and science. Bohm himself was learning these ideas from his extensive dialogs with J. Krishnamurti and others from the dharma traditions. 
• I feel Aravindan has seen both sides of the debate mainly through Western proxies (like Darwin, Bohm Intelligent Design), none of which properly capture the dharma position on the matter. This is a separate issue I am happy to debate in a suitable forum.]

In my personal opinion he is a bit over anxious about people plagiarizing his works. I also feel he sometimes goes overboard on this account as in the case of Sanjeev Sanyal. Perhaps because he has had a few bad experiences in the past, and hence this anxiety over his works being plagiarized. I am afraid this attitude may actually be an impediment in his vision of building an institution and intellectual movement that will live for generations to come.
[Rajiv: Since Aravindan was not a member of this egroup, he is probably unfamiliar with the details written in: message 8655 (thread), message 8679 (Chronology of my interactions with SS since 2013 over my work), message 8700 and message 8761. As a good scholar, Aravindan knows the importance of studying the background evidence before passing judgment. SS has since then accepted this account and issued an acknowledgment. Plagiarism is a problem of dharmic ethics; of nurturing team work to create robust schools of thought and not random sporadic one-off blogs here and there; of encouraging hard work and discouraging the fast-food mentality of quickly jumping ahead present in many of our fellow Indians.]

I also find his endorsement of/association with Subramanian Swamy problematic, as in my personal opinion SS is also engaged in playing up the Brahmin vs Non-Brahmin binary in Tamil Nadu, apart from being pro-Chinese and pro-Sri Lankan against the Tamil-Hindu interest. Subramanian Swami's accusation of RSS in Coimbatore bomb blast in 1998 is something that has hurt me deeply as a Swayamsevak. [Rajiv: We agree to disagree on Dr. Swamy. I may not agree with 100% of issues with him. or anyone else for that matter. But I base my overall support seeing the big picture dynamics of the kurukshetra, and not get distracted by every instance and every stand of someone. I respect his tapas, long term persistence, ability to stick neck out and take risks, continue even when not rewarded formally...]    

But these are issues that do not affect my respect for his ingenious presentation of Indic Dharma, his hard work and intellectual integrity in fighting for the Dharmic-Indic civilization. He could well have chosen a happy retirement with occasional sideline charity towards Dharma. But that he plunged right into the center of the fire is something for which we as Hindus are indebted to him whether one agrees with him or not in all his stands. I will always feel it a honor to be invited to coauthor the sequel of 'Breaking India'. As a Tamil Hindu I specially feel indebted to him because 'Breaking India' had really stopped a grand plan of Christian appropriation in Tamil Nadu. Had he not come into the picture at best a few articles would have been written on the net and would have been used merely to gain some brownie points in the internet debates but only a field-worker knows what kind of effect 'Breaking India' had achieved in Tamil Nadu and the kind of awareness it had created. For this too we need to be thankful to him.

[Rajiv: I want to thank Aravindan for being more than a scholar, but also a true friend. We developed mutual interest in each other's personal well-being. That is important to bear in mind. Disagreeing on scholarly matters is not the end of a relationship.]

RMF Summary: Week of January 3 - 9, 2013

This first thread has a lot of deep discussion and will be covered in depth in a separate post.
January 3 (continuing discussion)
Re: Sanskrit Dictionary : Amarakosha and MW dictionary Comparison
Dhirendra is just mouthing off statements randomly without offering any explanations for his claims. (1) To protect the wild-life is modern times Scientific...
 
January 4 (continuing discussion)
History of India recommendation
Please suggest a one or maximum two volume history of India ( in English) for a Westerner who knows very little of India. Thanks in advance!...

We continue to list books cited by contributors. Follow the original thread in the e-Group or see last week's post for more references. There is also a discussion with 'Dhirendra' in this thread (as in the previous thread).

Umesh:
Veer Savarkar's book, 'Six Glorious Epochs Of Indian History'  is a commentary "not a history in its academic sense”on the significant events and periods in our national life, taking a broad survey of the growth and survival of our Hindu race. In a way this attempt of Savarkar has been singular, barring few honorable exceptions.
The general trend of the Histories, written, read and taught in schools and colleges have been one of eulogizing the foreigners ...

Surya:

History Of Ancient India (portraits Of A Nation), 1/e

 By Kapur, Kamlesh, Published: December, 2010

Book description:

The history of India has been written and rewritten several times, each time with a different context. Historical narratives act as a powerful vehicle of culture and tradition from generation to generation. Therefore it is essential to give an authentic narrative of India's past using all the new evidence which has surfaced through archaeological excavation in the Indus-Sarasvati region. Researches in the field of ecology, natural history and genetics have given us enough pointers enabling us to write a fairly accurate history of Ancient India. This book ties up all this new evidence with the internal evidence from the literary sources....

[Passing on Author's clarification:
The book covers the time frame from 7th Millennia B.C. to 1000 A.D....]
 
Jaideep:
K. D. Sethna's "Ancient India in a new light". This is history of India from the remotest references to Prithu Vainya (Megasthenes' Dionysus), upto the Guptas and Satvahanas.

In the first part, it shows that the Puranic Chronology is fully consistent internally as well as with the writings of Al Beruni, Megasthenes, Hiuen Tsang, etc. It also critiques the modern chronology placing the Mauryas in 300 BC and puts Guptas there instead...

... PPS: As far as the history of the Rigvedic period goes, please also read Shrikant Talageri's "The Rigveda and the Avesta: The final Evidence", 2008. And please read it cover to cover....

Carpentier adds:
"...In the light of a recent Nat Geo genetic survey which traces the ancestry of many North Indians to Central Asia, there is now a claim that it "proves" that Aryans did indeed come from Central Asia (after getting there from Africa) and came to India, presumably bearing the Vedas and Brahmanism with them. This is of course a wild telescoping of dates as it assumes that the "Aryans" came to India around the usually bandied about date of 1500 BC, when in fact Central Asian migrants might have come some 50 000 years ago, assuming that they did not go the other way and migrate from India to Central Asia. This shows how much people tend to stick to established ideas once they have decided that anything that contradicts them is inspired by "Hindutvadi" communal and chauvinistic religious notions" 

January 4 (continuing discussion from January 3)
Swami Vivekananda becomes Masculine Nationalist
The author is trying to connect recent sexual crimes to Hindu nationalism. Taking the aggression out of masculinity Sanjay Srivastava (Professor of Sociology...  

E-group owner posts links to responses to this article published in 'The Hindu'
Moderator's Note: Multiple posts combined:]

Ram shares:

A reply by Shri.Aravindan Neelakandan [Co-Author with Rajiv of "Breaking India"] on CentreRightIndia 

Desh shares his take:
http://www.drishtikone.com/gobbledygook-analysts-reverse-hatred-and-targeting-culture-will-not-solve-indias-rape-problem/
 
[also recommend Sandeep Balakrishna's response on sandeepweb].


Sandeep posts:
More views on women by Swami Vivekananda can be found in Nivedita's book "The Master as I saw him" [this seems to be the full text]

 "... He held with unfaltering strength, that the freedom to refrain from marriage, if she wished, ought to be considered as a natural right of woman. A child, whose exclusive leaning to the devotional life was already strongly marked before she was twelve, had once appealed to him for protection against proposals of alliance that were being made by her family. And he, by using his influence with her father, and suggesting increased dowers for the younger daughters, had been successful in aiding her. Years had gone by. but she was still faithful to the life she had adopted, with its long hours of silence and retirement; and all her younger sisters were now wedded. To force such a spirit into marriage would in his eyes have been a desecration....

    The Swami was not unaware of the existence of social problems, in connection with marriage, in all parts of the world. "These unruly women," he exclaims, in the course of a lecture in the West, "from whose minds the words 'bear and forbear' are gone for ever " He could admit, also, when continuance in a marriage would involve treachery to the future of humanity, that separation was the highest and bravest course for husband or wife to take. In India he would constantly point out that Oriental and Occidental ideals needed to be refreshed by one another. He never attacked social institutions as such, holding always that they had grown up out of a desire to avoid some evil which their critic was possibly too headstrong to perceive. But he was not blind to the over-swing of the pendulum, in one direction or the other..."

Ravindra shares:
"There is an age old festival, called Madana Trayodashi, that does for women what Kadva-Choth does for men. The festival for one reason or other has been forgotten in most parts.

On this day husband prepares scented waters with which he would bathe his wife followed by Pooja..." 


Vanita questions:
"Don't you think Western/Eastern is another binary divide. Does it not make sense to think in terms of what is good for us at this time within the overall context that we are exposed.  I think we are now exposed to many more multinational and multicultural issues that transcend our colonial baggage in to day's shrinking world. "

Rajiv's comment:
"The above attitude is well addressed in BD. Please read it first. Its a moron attitude of cop out, laziness, tamas - in the name of lofty "we are all one" - so you dont have to understand the choices or worldview and their tradeoffs. Enough has been written/said in response already. Please read that, and THEN we can spend time taking it further."


Kundan responds to Vanita (so well written, it's tough to excerpt, but will try)
""Being Different" and "being the radical opposite of the other" are two different things. The former comes from an extensive exploration of the cosmology of different worldviews and systems; the latter comes from a simplistic portrayal of an epistemology that has not transcended binary divides.

The Indian world view transcends and integrates binaries. The western worldview (sans the experiences of some mystics who were persecuted and not allowed to come into the mainstream by the Church) is embedded in many different binaries like spirit/matter, body/soul, mind/matter, God/world, mind/body, subject/object, etc. Even postmodernism (which incidentally has been massively influenced by Buddhism and Vedanta, though not explicitly acknowledged) that challenges some of these binaries ultimately end up in promoting and espousing subtler binaries.

When I write the above, I am espousing a prominent difference between the Indian and the Western civilization. If I were stating things like rational west/intuitive east, Cartesian West/Wholistic East, I would have been operating under the western cosmology and epistemology that has not transcended binaries--... When we speak of our difference, being mindful of the space that goes beyond the binaries, we liberate ourselves from the ill effects of an orinetalist exercise and do not operate in the same framework that we are critiquing.... "

[thanks to Sunthar for his efforts in the thread below. He also also compiled Rajiv Malhotra's works, which will be perma-linked on this site soon]

January 5

Chinese Non Translatables
..."There are more than 35,000 Chinese words or phrases that cannot be properly translated into the English language. Words like yin and yang, kungfu and fengshui. Add to this another 35,000 Sanskrit terminology, mainly from India. Words like buddha, bodhisattva and guru."

Different people in different times and different places, think and discover different things. That was bad news for Germany, so Leibniz and Hegel urged the Germans to use only German already established concepts and annotate them with "chinese" or "indian". This way, the world looked and felt to the Germans as if it was German. Hence the idea, that ONE
civilization can replace all others and will never miss a thing.

Language hegemony: It's shengren, stupid!
By Thorsten Pattberg, China Daily, November 25, 2011

If you are an American or European, chances are you've never heard about shengren, minzhu and wenming. If one day you promote them, you might even be accused of cultural treason. That's because they are Chinese concepts.

They are often conveniently translated as "philosophers", "democracy" and "civilization". But they are none of those. They are something else. Something the West lacks. And since foreign concepts were irritating for most Westerners, they were quickly removed from the books and records in the past and, if possible, from the history of the world dominated by the West. In fact, German philosopher G.W.F. Hegel once remarked that the East plays no part in the formation of
the history of thought.....

Rajiv's comment: 

The author of the article below, Thorsten Pattberg, was introduced to me via Sunthar. We then sent Thorsten a gift copy of BD. Thorsten wrote... "After having read your excellent work "Being Different", I immediately had to
change text passages of my "East-West dichotomy" and included you as one of the most influential promoters of Eastern thought. A new edition will be published by Beijing Foreign Language Press in March 2013. The FLP is a very prominent publisher in China. May I kindly ask you for a "blurb" for my book? A blurb, according to the FLP, is a brief statement of three sentences or so which comments on my book in a positive way."

I sent him a blurb for his book as requested. He also wrote the following to Sunther: "I will feature 'Being Different' on my little website, and help to spread the word."

... No wonder my critics at AAR ignored this issue although its so loud and clear in the book."

January 5

North America's only Chair of Hindu Studies collapses
Rajiv shares some bad news:

T.S. Rukmani had the distinction of occupying the Chair of Hindu Studies at Concordia University in Montreal, which was the only permanent academic chair specifically designated for Hinduism in north america. Its donor community had insisted in a practicing Hindu scholar as occupant, and provisions were made for this up front.

Now that Prof. Rukmani has retired (and I just chatted with her a few minutes ago), things have fallen apart. The university has reclassified it as a "line appointment" to be made under normal "university policies". This is jargon for saying that their own selection committee will select whosoever they choose. The Hindu community gets sidelined and reduced to the role of "adviser" which is not binding and is merely appeasement to try and get more money.

Numerous other chairs have fallen prey to similar destinies, after the initial appointment retires ...  Typically, they get hoodwinked because of their own weakness - to impress the whites, to get their names in prominent announcements, to boost their stature as "leaders" who are working for "the good of Hinduism".

I say this because history keeps repeating itself. I have been giving lectures on this problem since the mid 1990s, trying to offer my services free of charge as consultant to negotiate long term agreements that will withstand, and to ensure the right appointments are made...

... But this has nothing with with what ought to matter: The ability to produce game-changing discourse that challenges the incumbent positions and incumbent power structures in ways that will invariably be unpopular. That would require competence, creativity and courage beyond the local leaders. The university side is far stronger intellectually, in negotiation sophistication, and most of all, they understand this weakness of our local leaders.  They know how to play "good cops".

The rest, as they say, is history (repeating itself). So dont get fooled each time you come across yet another group that pops up and makes grandiose announcements. "

January 7

Oh No! We ended up with Synthetic Unity!  

Nitin shares:

Interesting blog on huffington post. Looks like this NY Times best seller author has read the Integral vs Synthetic unity of BD.

... We believe, first, that we are separate from God (if we believe in God at all). Our Deity, we are told, separated us from Him when the world was created, because of the unworthiness of our species...

Second, we believe we are separate from each other. Generally, we use a softer word. We are individuals, we say. And so, in the cultures of the world's western nations especially, it is our individual rights that have become paramount....

Third, we believe we are separate from life itself ....

Has anyone noticed that the systems emerging from these beliefs are not working? Not our political systems, not our economic systems, not our ecological systems, not our educational systems, not our social systems, and not our spiritual systems. None of them have produced the outcomes for which we have been yearning.

Actually, it's worse. They have all produced exactly the opposite..."

RMF Summary: Week of April 11 - 17, 2011

April 11

Fw: Amartya Sen : The Dangerous Delusion Re: Warren Buffet and Bill Gates interference with our educational system, there is the interference of people like Amartya Sen, who will be heading Nalanda,... April 12 USHA Reception for Rajiv Malhotraji - Author of Breaking India (image linked from vivekyothi blogspot) April 16 US Money funds foreign NGO's Lessons for the Indians April 16 When a Minority is not a minority Aravindan Neelakandan: This is one of the vital provocations of the book. Here we have an example of how Indian communities become pawns in the hands of power structures remote-controlled by transnational entities like Catholic church. As expected the news provider here does not explore the ground level dynamics. Living in the eye of the storm, so as to say, there are further complicated patterns. There is a high level of dissent among Catholic fishermen community who increasingly feel that they are being kept captive by the Catholic Church. ... The three south Indian districts of Tamil Nadu (two of which are coastal and hence of strategic importance) are reaping sound political power harvests for the Church/churches thanks to the seeds sown and field work done for two hundred years. April 17 Another 'Breaking India' scenario becoming a reality: and its scary Aravindan Neelakandan: The last chapter of the book explores strange local nexuses between foreign controlled forces in India even when those who control these forces may be fighting bitter forces at global level. The book gives many examples. For example, right wing American evangelical organizations supporting Maoist insurgencies, Jihadhi forces getting support from Church backed NGOs etc. An US based evangelist (Vishal Mangalwadhi) lauds Maoists for their 'Jihad against Animism and Hinduism'. (p.383) National Council of Churches of Nepal (NCCN) became a key ally of Maoists in helping them form government (p.388)The book also discusses Maoist-ULFA-ISI nexus (p.389-90) ... April 17 Fw: request Vijaya Rajiva: url for my article ' Breaking India: Some Reflections' published in Haindava Keralam.      April 17 My salute to Shri Rajiv Malhotra and Shri Aravindan Neelakandan Respected Members of the Group, Jai Hind & Namashkar. To be honest, I have NOT fully gone through the Magnum Opus by Shri Rajiv Malhotra and Shri Aravindan...

RMF Summary: Week of March 29 - April 4, 2011

March 29

Commentary on Breaking India on Indian Realist *Authors of the just released book *Breaking India *allege that Christian organizations are engaged in a divisive program to expand in countries like India ... Here is the link. March 29 Asian Studies Review paper on Rajiv Malhotra in 'Mythology Wars' A draft of McComas Taylor's paper on Rajiv Malhotra in 'Mythology Wars' can be seen here [pdf]. This thread elicited a lot of responses, with Taylor's work generally receiving a lot of rotten tomatoes. Karigar was the first to comment on the contents: "..The 30+ page paper seems like a scholarly trivialisation of the critiques offered to Wendy & her childrens' works. The author essentially contradicts himself, when he titles his tract "Mythology Wars", thereby classifying the subject under discussion (Hindu texts & practices) as "mythology", and then proceeding to defend western academia for creating fresh overlays of mythology on top of traditional "mythology"..." N.S.Rajaram does not beat around the bush and gets to the point: "The author also makes no mention of the fact that Indology including what its present day practitioners are putting out is steeped in racism. In language and spirit it is similar to the anti-semitic literature of the Nazi era. I plan to do a couple of columns on it highlighting both the racism and the anti-science of these Indologists. I will not engage in their kind of abusive, pornographic language but it will be no holds barred. Western Indology must be destroyed." Meanwhile, Koenraad Elst adds: " ..Taylor never really addresses the truth claims in the Hindu criticism of the truth claims by Wendy c.s. Thus, Vishal and Venkat's "fault-finding" with Courtright's Sanskrit translations does not question his integrity as a scholar (though that has been done too, but on other grounds), but his *competence*. Views, which in Taylor's view are outside the scope of criticism, are inevitably related to data, and it makes a big difference if an academic is shown to have no proper command of the data. V & V have also dug up virile Ganesha references from the literature that completely refute Courtright's limp image of Ganesha. So, before  psychologizing the critics, Taylor ought to have acknowledged that they have proven Courtright's thesis *wrong*. If people insist on maintaining a thesis demonstrated to be wrong, one might start looking for psychological motives... ... most Westerners don't care one way or the other, and this includes many India-watchers and most of the old Orientalists, to whom, in their study in Vienna or Leiden, Hinduism was just a museum object on a par with ancient Greek religion. Courtright's book is of just that type ... ... It is like the Christian missionaries: when I was asked, during a lecture at Balagangadhara's conference on Religion in India (Jan. 2009), why the missionaries are out to destroy Hinduism, I had to answer in truth: "Because they love you." With their limited knowledge, they believe that by converting you, they are freeing you from evil spirits and opening the road to salvation for you .... ... Subjectively, their love for Hindus (though not for Hinduism) is genuine and heartfelt. At the same time, its objective quality is indeed best summed up in Vishal's spot-on quip that "Wendy saying she loves Hinduism is like a pedophile saying he loves childen". Vjiaya Rajiva has the final word in this thread: "The Hindu diaspora is concerned with the effect this type of garbage has on their children. One of the books, I believe it is Courtright's work, is not just being delicately discussed in the genteel halls of the academy. It was being used as the basis of a textbook for children. Secondly, although both Jewish and Christian authors have attacked their tradition, none of this is brought out to the schools, where the tradition is held up as pious and righteous thinking. Clearly a double standard where the Hindu faith is concerned."   April 1 Iain Buchanan - The Role of Evangelicals in U.S. Imperialism Iain Buchanan - The Role of Evangelicals in U.S. Imperialism from TV Multiversity on Vimeo. Iain Buchanan's presentation on 'Unholy Crusaders: The Role of Evangelicals in US Imperialism' at the International Meeting on Resisting Hegemony held 2-5 August 2010 in Penang, Malaysia. April 1 Breaking India: Fire works start at Tamil Net world In a discussion about the latest book on Gandhi, I introduce 'Breaking India'to the group members. I show how people like Jaffrelot have tried to depict Gandhi in a bad light and how 'Breaking India' shows such deconstruction of Indian culture and state icons is an institutional activity in the west in order to depict Indian culture as inherently deficient or flawed seeking western intervention. (http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=13680) Kumar reacts: He states that the book has distorted the facts. It has slandered the Berkeley Tamil chair. He denies any Western influence or support. (http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=13757) He also produces the related portion from the book. I respond: I give the full context as well as the related citations. Comparing Thiruvachagam with Mormon scriptures by one of these 'professors' who adorned the Tamil chair, the Telugu chair of the South Asian Studies of the University being given to a declared evangelist etc. are also mentioned by me in the passing. Puncturing George Hart who has been paraded by Dravidianists as a great authority on Tamil literature, reallys hurt their agenda. http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=13821

RMF Summary: Week of March 22-28, 2011

March 22

Another example for chpt 8 - Kalai Kaviri [Chpt 8 discusses numerous ways by which inculturation is being used to dupe naive Hindus into slipping into Christianity without knowing it. The appropriation of Hindu bharatnatyam dance to propagate Christianity is given as one example. Below is another.] Kalai Kaviri was founded by a Jesuit priest by name Fr. S.M. George in 1977 at Tiruchirappalli in the Southern part of India... ... no Christian family came forward to support him as dance was considered profane.... ... Kalai Kaviri brought out ‘Yesu Kaaviyam’ the poetical life history of the Jesus Christ written by the famous Tamil film lyricist Kannadasan... ... many tourists from various countries, Catholic fraternity in particular started showing interest in Kalai Kaviri visiting the institution. With such rapid growth, Kalai Kaviri inaugurated the full-time Bharathanatyam diploma course ... ... Inspired by the art forms fostered in the Hindu temples, Kalai Kaviri choreographed Indian classical and semi-classical dances on liturgical themes and presented them during the masses. Such performances were acclaimed to by the Christian community the world over as something unique and the first of its kind.... ... In 1999, Kalai Kaviri introduced Post-graduate degree courses in Bharathanatyam and music... Rakesh asks: "Frankly, what is wrong with this? Afterall, Rukmini Arundale, had to recuperate Bharata Natyam from a Devadasi art form which was looked down upon, and make it respectable for most Hindus. In fact Hindus should appropriate western art forms to propogate their culture. Imagine providing an intellectual back bone to the traditional African and Latin American faiths by incorporating the Peruvian Inca Sun God as Surya Narayana and Krishna and Kali as the Black Pride Divinities. It is better to make Hinduism an inclusive, global faith..."  Response to Rakesh's post: [Inclusiveness is not the same thin as appropriation for the sake of deception.] Inclusiveness is sharing the same platform with another idea or culture with equal diginity. What Kalai Kaviri is doing is not what Rukmini Arundale did. Inclusivism is not appropriating other culture and practices. Interpreting the Peruvian and African gods and godesses as Hindu gods and goddess would be appropriation. However, researching about similarities and differences is a different matter altogether. [What is being criticized is INCULTURATION which is a very defined Church strategy to assimilate "portions" of the target culture in order to make Christianity more easily accepted. It is their entry strategy. This is not what genuine inclusiveness means. When Ravana came dressed like a sadhu, he was not practicing inclusiveness.]] Another commentator states: "Christian inculturation camouflages and conceals its real tentions and does not come with benign intentions." March 22 Look at who is coming to educate Indians!! ARTICLE IN INDIAN EXPRESS After Beijing, University of Chicago plans centre in Delhi A prestigious university, with a well-established academic reputation for... March 23 Varna and Caste (jati): What Vedic Literature says - article Vedic Literature Says Caste by Birth is Unjust By Stephen Knapp (Sri Nandanandana dasa)             ...We all know that the Vedic system of Varnashrama has been mentioned in the Vedic literature in many places. But it seems that many people still don't understand how it was meant to be implemented. It is not because of Varnashrama, but because of this misunderstanding of what it really is that has caused so many of India's social problems. This article contains many quotes from Vedic shastra to clarify what the Varnashrama or caste system is actually supposed to be... March 24 USCIRF Reports an Analysis (Chapter 15) Aravindan Neelakandan: Chapter 15 of 'Breaking India' deals with the US Government's direct involvement in Indian society and polity. The book shows how the US Commission on International Religious Freedom is one such tool for intervention.(Pages 271 to 283) The book shows how every one in the commission has been handpicked to serve the agenda of US political interests. They are also people with strong global evangelical ambitions. For example its past commissioners include Eliot Abrams, undersecretary of state for President Ronald Reagan and notorious for his role in the Iran-Contra Affair. Another key commissioner of USCIRF Richard Land was named by TIME magazine as one of the twenty five most influential evangelicals in America... A. Neelakandan then responded to a question from a commentator: //In the first part, you will notice a question referring to the "brahmanical" system of "enforcing" varna. Is that historically true? That is, did brahmins actively "enforce" varna, or did they just strictly "observe" it?// Yesterday a well known Marxist writer interviewed me for his blog on 'Breaking India'. If you know Tamil please go through the audio interview. The interview precisely touches upon this question. [Here is the mp3 version of the Tamil interview]. http://marudhang.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_21.html Varna system could not have been enforced by any particular community. Those communities that wielded political, financial powers along with those who were considered the authorities of Dharma should have created this over a long period of time and with enormous regional variations. It was a social contract at its best and it had its ills and merits. March 24 Re: N.S. Rajaram's column on human rights hypocrisy The following column on 'Human rights Madness' appeared in the latest issue of Newsgram. March 24 Re: Who educates Indian MP's - guess ?-- who is to blame?  N. S. Rajaram: Why blame them? They are just filing the vacuum left by Hindu 'thinkers' or 'non-thinkers'. For over a decade myself and others have been urging the Sangh organizations to set up some bona fide think tanks devoted to education, economics and especially national security. They need to be staffed by outside scholars of proven track record. But what do they do? They coin some Sanskrit term like Bauddhik Sangh, Itihasa Samiti, Vedic mathematics, etc and put people with no qualifications beyond Sangh association. Sangh organizations have saddled themselves with the debilitating dogma tha answers are to be found by going back to an imaginary Vedic past. This revivalist attitude hangs like an albtross around the necks (and brains) of Sangh thinkers, and they are sinking deeper into the morass. So why blame the Ford Foundation if they are filling the vacuum left by Hindu 'bauddhiks'? March 25 Dark side of giving: The rise of philanthro-capitalism This article was forwarded by my friend Prashanth Vaidyaraj. It notes from the economic stand point the truth of how philanthropic money is being used to not... March 25 Wickileaks: US Ambassador monitored Dalit tensions secretly Please note that this is ""This record is a partial extract of the original cable. The full text of the original cable is not available... March 26 Christians launch political party in Tamil Nadu Varna and jati (caste) we have already covered lengthy and useful debates on this topic and this thread continues the analysis. Here is the link to the previous discussion. Vijaya Rajiva: Comment on Dr. Elst's observation that Jati and Hinduism have been associated for at least two thousand years: Jati has been wrongly translated as 'caste' since the Portuguese did so based on their erroneous theory of different races existing in India. There were a variety of ethnicities in ancient India, but not different races. Jati arose out of the shrenis (guilds) out of economic necessity, the need for specialisation for producing the goods for both trade and domestic consumption. It is generally assumed that shrenis did not exist in the early Vedic period, although some scholars seem to think that there were the beginnings of shrenis in that time frame. Certainly by the post Vedic period they existed and the loose social formations of the period became crystallised into Jatis... Dr. Aravindan Neelakandan responded to Vijaya Rajiva. I've carried more detailed excerpts since Dr. Neelakandan cited a short story of Isaac Asimov as a reference in his response :)    //I disagree with your implicit statement that Jati and Hinduism are actually intertwined. In that regard you and Dr.Elst seem to be in agreement!// No. Exactly opposite is the case. Perhaps the following statement of mine has been misunderstood: //So Jaathi is as inherently intertwined with Hinduism as much as birth-based institutions of Europe are inherently intertwined with Christian theology.// Now the birth-based multi-layered institutions of pre-modern Europe were supported by Christian theologians and law-makers. This does not make Christianity, in the eyes of modern scholars, a supporter of this system. However with Hinduism different yard sticks are used. An essentialist argument is put forth to say that Hinduism is intertwined with Jaathi. This is simply not the complete picture and is a distorted picture of history. In this connection, with regard to the evolution of untouchability, one of the best insights on the subject is in an unexpected realm. I suggest the science fiction short story "Strikebreaker," by Isaac Asimov, in "Anthropology Through Science Fiction", (Ed. Carol Mason, Martin Harry Green- berg, and Patricia Warrick, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1974)Unfortunately I lost my copy of this wonderful collection.:( In the related discussion, Asimov states that caste system evolves in a society with limited resources and limited mobility... ...Veracity of this speculation by the good doctor of science fiction, can be further validated by the fact that pre-Modern Europe also had defiled trades and ritual notions of purity and untouchability. It is not just an accident that not many works or literature can be found on this subject in the Western curriculum. The one rare book I came across in this regard is "Defiled Trades and Social Outcasts: Honor and Ritual Pollution in Early Modern Germany" by Kathy Stuart (Cambridge University Press 2006)... [I found a free and legal archived pdf link to Kathy Stuart's work here] ... So we need not justify or label Jaathi as an uniquely Indic phenomenon. But what one finds unique as an Indian is this: There is not a single instance of mass movement in Christendom that spoke for these voiceless people of dishonorable trades. ... So caste system can evolve anywhere given the appropriate social conditions. In India it became rigid with colonial resource drain. In Europe it withered away with enormous inflow of capital and resources ... ... I also think those who want to somehow preserve the Jaathi and project it in a positive light often fail to see the dark alchemy that this system is undergoing in India....  ... Here let me again quote 'Breaking India' which deals more objectively the situation and the pros and cons of Jaathi. This is from Chapter 5 of the book and is under the sub-heading "Building on Max Muller's work": Prior to colonialism, the jati-varna system in India had little, if anything, to do with race, ethnicity, or genetics. It was better understood as a set of distinctions based on traditional or inherited social status derived from work roles... ... Max Müller, who was largely responsible for entrenching the racial framework for studying jati, had his own evangelical motive. In his view, caste: which has hitherto proved an impediment to conversion of the Hindus, may in future became one of the most powerful engines for the conversion...  ... Today Jaathi has become an important and effective tool for community evangelism. So those who bat for it should take this worrying aspect into consideration. [there were some followup responses, but for brevity, we will stop here. Readers can click the RMF link and read the discussion in its entirety] March 28 Princeton Univ, March 31: My debate with prominent Indian Christian Rajiv Malhotra: On March 31, Princeton Univ will hold a discussion/debate on my book, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines." The response to my talk will be given by the Rev. Dr. Nehemiah Thompson. He is the Pastor at Wesley United Methodist Church, as well as General Secretary, National Association of Asian American Christians in the USA. He is a well-known leader for Dalit activism before the UN, US Government in Washington, Indian Embassy, and media.

March

RMF Summary of a Single Discussion on Jati - March 17, 2011

There was an interesting debate on 'Tribe' and 'Caste' in March 2011 that is worth a more detailed summary. This post covers that discussion. Here's the link to the original thread:

Fw: Tribe and caste(jati) .The discussion was initiated by Dr. Vijaya Rajiva as a response to Dr. Koenraad Elst (probably continuing from a discussion earlier in March 2011). Not surprisingly, this is by far among the most vigorously debated issues in the early life of the forum that was devoted to topics covered in the book 'Breaking India'. Topics in this summary cover caste, race, Aryan Invasion Theory (debunked), Untouchability and its origins, birth-based discrimination, etc. " Tribe and jati are both endogamous, but the jati is integrated with the shreni (guild) and the tribe is not. Dear Dr. Elst, Strictly speaking those Hindus who believe that Hinduism has nothing to do with caste or untouchability are right. There was no untouchability in the Vedic period and the Jati(caste) is related to the development of Shreni (guild), which is a post Vedic phenomenon. How the socio-economic entity the Jati (caste) is related to the later Hindu scriptures is an interesting question and worth some investigation." This assertion was questioned by a commentator 'Rakesh': "I think this is a convenient argument, that undermines our credibility. We embrace the post-vedic, non-vedic Bhakti and Yoga, as they are positives. But when some one talks about a negative we run back to vedic times to say we are spotless on caste. A mature approach would be to accept that Hinduism is not perfect and so what ?" Rajiv Malhotra noted: "Chapter 5 of the book [BI] is on Lord Risley's work in the thriving discipline called Race Science in which Europeans were applying Dardins new theory of evolution of species to human races, and colonialists were specially interested in figuring out each of the races being ruled by them. Risley's personal hatred for Indians is well established and his very explicit work on Race Science. His was an ethnologist compiling field data to support these theories. His method consisted of measuring skulls .... ...None of this says anything about Vedic culture being perfect or otherwise. It merely says that these constructs we got used to are Eurocentric and were downloaded as Apps to colonize Indians." K. Venkat presented a very long and detailed response on an earlier post by Dr. Elst on 'Chandalas'. Only excerpts are included here and the reader is urged to read this in its entirety in the original thread: "On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:52 AM, Koenraad Elst wrote: "Chandella looks like it is derived from the related tribal ethnonyms Gond/Kond/Kandh. So does, probably, Chandâla. Ptolemy mentions the Kandaloi as an Indian tribe. In Wendy Doniger's Manu Smrti translation, Chandâla is given a literal interpretation, "the 'fierce' untouchables", which may well be how Manu himself understood the term." KV: There is a significant danger in making etymological guesses. Chandela and Chandala need not be, and are not, related in any way. The Chandella Rajputs who flourished towards the end of the first millennium would not have proudly advertised their name had it been associated with chandala. Just to give a counter example, *Chandola* is a surname often used by brahmins in the north. It would be silly to argue that this too is related to chandalas. The Chandalas are not an untouchable jati ... ...  One must look for asprsya or teenda (Tamil) for untouchability. One does not find them until the 12th century CE. Race, jati, and tribe are all inter-related. They are all rooted in genetics and that is why one finds unique funerary and wedding rites, culinary customs, and dialect often related with each of these constructs.... ...  If you want to find a bone marrow or heart or tissue donor, your highest likelihood of success is within your own jati. All of these underscore the need for a reasonable discussion on jati unconstrained by western prejudices and ignorance... " ... Untouchability is a late entrant into Hindu society. It was the result of colonization. But the single most factor (there are others --- but later on that) that sustained untouchability is the lack of hygiene. As some jatis fell into economic despair as a result of colonial subjugation they also slowly fell into unhygienic ways. In the pre-modern world, Hindus shared common wells for bathing etc so hygiene was paramount. A jati that did not live up to the social standards of hygiene were treated as untouchables. This ensured that India did not suffer epidemics like Europe did. So, untouchability is not some "upper caste" ploy against "lower castes." It was a natural social defense against epidemics... ... Sri Narayana Guru, the Ezhava-born Hindu saint, insisted on the need for his followers to remain very hygienic. Ezhavas followed his advice. I understand the need to let go western constructs on race and caste and support articulating these form the Hindu point of view. My only caution is that we do not throw science out in the process. " Karigar cautions against western 1:1 mapping of Indic categories:  "I'd submit that the Indic categories (Jaati, Varna, kula, gotra, et al) and Western categories ( race, tribe, 'caste', 'ethnic group') may have certain strong correspondences, that may be, but it is certainly no One-on-One. Much overlaps, & even more does not. The trajectories of Indian civilization/society have enough uniqueness to warrant this." N.S shares some interesting empirical/statistical results from genetic studies: " ... scanning significant chunks of the genome (not just one chromosome) has now become quite affordable and some hobbyists (who are technically well equipped) are doing selective admixture analyses. One such effort (by a hobbyist, Zack Ajmal) is http://www.harappadna.org/ and you can see the results for the first 50 participants (I am #41). Essentially every single person who is Indian (or Bangladeshi and perhaps most Pakistanis), regardless of caste weighs most on the "south-asian" component (which is presumably an amalgamation of ancient south and north indian components going back tens of thousands of years). Every single person who is clearly not Indian (eg. Iranian or Iraqi) does not load much on the southasian component. The nonIndians are easily distinguishable from the Indians (defining an Indian as one with 2 Indian parents)..." BNA recommends a book: "Dear SriRam - Your observation is very good. One must read the book "Journey of Man" by Spencer Wells - A National Geographic research work. This is available in India also and in Amazon. He has studied all races around the world ..." NS responds to one of BNA's assertions: "... Hi Bala, Your characterization of single male line shared by Indians is likely incorrect as are the observation re female lines and relevance of the Puranas reference; there is no reason to restrict ancestry analysis to the Y chromosome (for the male line) or mitochondrial DNA (female line). It is very tempting to project our current belief systems onto emerging data which really don't need to have any respect for them a priori. That Puranas are a respected and important part of our traditions does not make them an all purpose oracle.... "  Seshadri presents a different point of view: "I cannot understand this preoccupation with genome based identity fixing. Is it eugenics in its modern form. Or scientific Racism. The socalled research methods and sampling strategies and selectivity in assumptions and paradigms - all are intractable.... " NS responded to Seshadri with: "...   I do not see how knowing the facts about human evolution as best as current day science allows us is equivalent to endorsing eugenics. The genie is loose and there is no putting it back in the bottle. I think some basic forms of eugenics are universally endorsed by almost every one as when the fetus is scanned for genetic defects. I think it is safe to predict that less than 100 years from now, we'll have all sorts of medical procedures that operate via gene modifications ..." At this point in the thread, Dr Koenraad Elst commented on the origin of the word 'Arya' leading to five responses. We will summarize this sub-thread before returning to the original topic. Here is the link to the original sub-thread: " Someone here voiced the widespread opinion that "Arya" only means "noble". I venture to differ. While the term had no racial ("Nordic") or linguistic ("Indo-European") meaning, it did originally have an ethnic meaning. On this, invasionist linguist JP Mallory and anti-invasionist historian Shrikant Talageri agree. At least, it has a relative ethnic meaning, not designating a particular nation, but being used by several Indo-European nations (viz. Anatolians, Iranians and Paurava Indians) in the sense of "compatriot", "one of us". This term, in India, then evolved to "one who shares the civilizational norms of the Vedic Paurava tribes", "Veda-abiding", "civilized". And thence "noble"." Rajiv Malhotra added: "The famous "Four Noble Truths" that define Buddhism are called the Four Arya Truths in the original Sanskrit. Clearly, Buddha did not refer to the truths of a specific race. His further description of what these truths consist of has nothing to do race at all. Hence, I reject that Arya = race. Many Sanskrit terms are very contextual in meaning. Hence a literal translation into one normative meaning (a common tendency among Westerners) is reductionist " N. S. Rajaram spoke about South Indian practices: "It [Arya] was and still is used by South Indian groups identifying oneself as 'civilized'. Most recently, 'eedigaas' a community traditionally associated with harvesting toddy from palm trees changed their designation to 'arya eedigaas'. Of course Chettiars call themselves Arya Vaishyas. " Come added: "Throughout the world, many people if not most have called themselves "the best" in their respective languages (.i.e the Franks, the Ewins, the Heruli in the West, the Han in China etc...) to affirm their distinctiveness and superiority over their neighbours. That can hardly be equated to race..." Karigar noted: " As the book clearly sees, & shows it's readers, the "aryan" issue currently is a swampy one where discussions can just get bogged down, as some discussions here are..." This concludes the summary on the "Arya" subthread and return to the main topic on Tribe/Jati/Caste.   Koenraad Est commented on Israeli genetic studies: "The one country and community way ahead of everyone else is Israel and the Jews. Genetic data have been used to prove that Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Oriental Jews are biologically much closer related to one another than to their respective Central/East-European, West-Mediterranean and Arab neighbours. Less conveniently, these also show that the Palestinians are likewise close relatives, and the closest are the Kurds, ... ... In evolutionary psychology, we see the beginnings of a comeback of genetic explanations of caste coupled with IQ. Richard Lynn & Tatu Vanhanen in *IQ and the Wealth of Nations*, Michael H. Hart in *Understanding Human History* and Steve Sailer in his blog have claimed that the average IQ of Indians is quite low, like that of Arabs, higher than Africans but lower than Europeans and much lower than the IQ champions, Ashkenazi Jews and Northeast-Asians(Hitler disliked IQ tests because Jews came out too smart) .. Chitra responded to Elst: " Dr. Elst, I do enjoy your posts, even on the occasions when I disagree.  In this case it appears you are describing a line of thinking , not saying that you necessarily buy into it.  Still, this frog would like to briefly share the view from her personal lily-pad. As the parent of a now young adult daughter with autism, my personal experience confirms the following : 1. Yes, IQ means something. It ranks people on their ability to perform certain tests.  But it is no more an assurance of what people can do with it than having two arms and all one's fingers intact is a guarantee of becoming a future concert pianist.  The human is the most variable variable on the planet -- and each human is affected in turn by the humans surrounding him/her.  Natural endowments can be shaped for the better or worse by values, circumstances, economic hardship, emotional setbacks... "  Aravindan Neelakandan added: "'Breaking India', in its Appendix-A, has a comprehensive overview of how consistently attempts were made to fabricate a scientific authenticity to the racial framework that colonial milieu has evolved. It was interesting to see that the Western scholars often with limited data would come out with the conclusion that the foreign Aryans model has been upheld. But a larger and more detailed study of the population by Indian scholars proved the initial study wrong. But the scientific rebuttal by Indian scholars did not get the same media lime light that the initial limited unscientific study by western scholars... ....Jatis were dynamically moving in and out of the Varna space due to various socio-political, economic reasons... ...The book makes it clear that it is for social justice and affirmative action for the betterment of the marginalized sections of society. It points that the quicker we ease out the faultlines in our society with justice and through democratic means the better.... " Rina Mukherji comments on the origins of caste-based discrimination (in areas north of South India): "I do not know much about the dalits of southern India. But there are several experts who believe that discrimination along caste lines arose when Hindus who had converted to Buddhism came back into the Hindu fold. In eastern and northern India, Brahmins who returned back into Hinduism were put to work on funerary rites; and to this day, other Brahmins generally do not intermarry with them..." Venkat provides some stunning statistics: "1. The per capita crime rate against the Harijans is one fifteenth the per capita crime rate against non-Harijans. Contrast this with the apartheid prevalent against the blacks in America's churches or with the fact that one in nine black men in the age group of 25-35 is incarcerated ... Elst gave a good example of how genetic data has been used to almost eliminate Tay-Sachs among the Jews...  .... Aravindan is correct that each jati arose from the original tribal organization but the inference is that this makes jatis biological constructs. His other statement, drawing upon anthropological data, that some of the Harijans may have been priestly jatis who might have fallen due to real or imagined transgressions is well supported by traditions from these own jatis... ... Now to the controversy. It is true that nurture is as important as nature, but it is undeniable that genetics predisposes you with certain aptitudes... .... Yes, genetic data debunks Aryan invasion circa 1500-1900 BCE. But does it negate or support the possibility of Aryan invasion in an earlier period say 3000 BCE?"  Aravidan Neelakandan specifically responds to K. Venkat's important question on AIT in an earlier time period: "Yes. very definitely it does debunk 'Aryan Invasion' hypothesis even if its placed at 3000 or even 5000 BCE. Again I refer to Appendix-A of the book The study I am referring to for this was done in 2009 (published in Nature:) At the outset the paper seems to support Aryan Invasion model. And in fact a report in Times of India declared that this study supported racial basis of caste and linked it to 2009 session of the UN Human Rights Council at Geneva. However when the authors contacted one of the scientists involved in the project and sought details we were surprised. The ANI (Ancient North Indian) and ASI (Asian South Indian) genetic differences belong to what anthropologists call deep time... " ... Let me quote the words of one of the author of the 'Nature' paper here in full: "Our paper basically discards Aryan theory...." " Chitra goes to Venkat's post and questions him on his statement of Hygiene of certain Jatis: ".. Just curious -- is this something you came up with or is there some basis for this line of thinking?  How does one make a sweeping conclusion that a jati AS A WHOLE lacks a sense of hygiene and is therefore justifiably marginalized?  I ask because I know a fair amount of slobs both female and male who belong to my "caste" and scrupulous neatniks who do not..." Venkat responds to Chitra with two types of evidence to support his statement: " There are clear and unmistakeable references on which I made my inference. But one need not even go into literature and epigraphy and instead make observations on the ground. For example, ... ... Now to a few textual references that support my argument: [references include Manickavasakar, Abbe Dubois, Pawar, and Ziegenbalg] ... I did not say untouchability is justified today. But I would urge every member to look into the causative factors instead of emotionally blaming the so called upper castes. In the past, everyone shared public bathing places etc so hygiene was important. If a jati was not adhering to hygienic standards, its members posed a significant danger to spreading germs and epidemics to others. So, they were avoided. But I never said lack of hygiene was the only factor. There are clearly other factors that led to the ostracizing of an entire jati...

"

... <Chitra's followup question> Is it conceivable that a jati that was marginalized for whatever reason and denied full participation in the mainstream would fall into economic difficulties that made the same level of hygiene difficult?

V: Very much yes. For example, the level of hygiene in refugee camps is appalling even though the same jatis had led a very hygienic existence earlier ...
 ... [In response to Chitra summoning Oscar Wilde]

Oscar Wilde summed up the human condition thus:

"All men are born equal -- but some are more equal than others."

V: Oscar Wilde can sometimes be witty but he is plain wrong and ignorant in this case. Bluntly put, all men are not born equal. This is a phony claim. We are all born with varying capabilities. Hinduism teaches that regardless of such differences everyone deserves to be treated with dignity....

... Since we are discussing untouchability here, please show me that it existed in the pre-Islamic period in Hindu society. We cannot sustain pet theories that have no basis in facts. If you look at inscriptions, the Paraiyah jati is a very dominant jati until the 13th century yet subsequently they fall into untouchability under colonial rule. This is why I will expect that those who claim that Hindu society is guilty of discriminating adduce proof for their beliefs... "

Aravindan Neelakandan commented on one of K.Venkat's references:
"I am afraid KV has misinterpreted the statement of Manichavasakar. This is a self-depreciating poetic statement which can not be taken as a proof of a 'report' of 'the head of the Pulaiya being infested with lice. Here is my informal translation of the statement in its context: .."

Aravindan Neelakandan also mentioned:
"Untouchable is a social space. Any community relegated to that space due to socio-political dynamics will naturally become unhygienic. So to argue untouchability is a result of hygienic factors (or even to argue that hygiene is one of the factors leading to untouchability) is a circular argument.

During the course of the research for this book we came across many genuine Dalit leaders who toil for their community. They are well aware of how forces from the West lure their leadership. They have seen their counterparts given air flights and international forums when they become willing partners in the game. Yet they have kept themselves away. But even these Dalit leaders have a strong grievance and doubt against us. To gain their confidence we had to have many sessions of heart to heart talks. We need to look at history and their notions of why they became untouchables from their point of view. We have attempted that in this book [Breaking India] ..."

Venkat further noted:
"... I want to make a clear distinction between jatis that fell into untouchability and jatis that faced the hostility of the rest of Hindu society. Only a very few jatis among the SC have ever been untouchable. Some of the most powerful jatis such as the Mahar were not untouchable but were seen by Hindu society with hostile eyes. One should ask why..."  

The thread ends with a commentator looking for textual references to Venkat's statement on Mahars.

RMF Summary: Week of March 15-21, 2011

March 15

Moving backwards - Yogesh Atyal

"Moving backwards"

The above article by former Principal Director of Social and Human Sciences, UNESCO, shows how the wars to claim "lower caste" privileges are fragementing India in violent ways ...

March 15

Berkeley's Tamil Chair (Breaking India, chapter 10)

One of the chapters in "Breaking India" discusses, in the context of Dravidian Academic-Activist Network Outside India, the role of the Berkeley Tamil Chair held by Professor George Hart. The book brings out many facts that Indians (Tamils and ardent Hindus in particular) have not been aware of:
- Hart has disseminated the Dravidian propaganda exemplifying the "cunning Brahmin responsible for all social evils."
- He has claimed that early Sangam literature was composed before Aryan influence had penetrated the South....

Another commentator adds: "...So powerful was Karunanidhi's clout over Tamil Nadu during the 90's that he even allowed shooting of films inside temples..."

March 15

Council on Foreign Relations promotes Timothy Samuel Shah's prejudiced works Rajiv Malhotra: I just got notified today that the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations is holding a worldwide conference call on March 29 to promote a new book that is innocently titled, "God's Century: Resurgent Religion and Global Politics." (http://books.wwnorton.com/books/Gods-Century/.) But what appears like objective and balanced scholarship has a long hostory of anti-Hindu bias and venom. Timothy Samuel Shah, one of the coauthors, is described in Breaking India (pages 243-5)... March 16 Re: Afro-Dalit Project Vijaya Rajiva adds : "Shri Loganadan should please watch the video below which at the end speaks of the Tevaram music in the first millennium." ... March 17 This debate below had 37 excellent comments, including discussions between noted scholars of Hinduism, and will be covered by a separate post. The link is provided below for completeness. Fw: Tribe and caste(jati) Tribe and jati are both endogamous, but the jati is integrated with the shreni (guild) and the tribe is not. Dear Dr. Elst, Strictly speaking those Hindus who... March 18  Re: Dalit/Dravidian identity in light of Rwanda's Hutu/Tutsi history N.S. Rajaram notes: " .... The terms, India, Hindu(ism), Hindi all are from Sindhu (the river), which is indeed a Samskrt word. Just like the word Asura becomes Ahura in Old Persian, Sindhu became Hindu. The word "Samskrtm" has direct meaning in Samskrt, whereas "Tamil" does not have meaning as-is in Tamil. Same goes for Dravid(ian) as well. Their sloppy etymological gymnastics is beyond silly when they desperately try to justify their claims..." The Afro-Dalit Movement Aravindan Neelakandan, co-author of 'Breaking India' makes some very important observations about the so-called Dravidian movement, which subsequently led to a brief discussion: ...of the important aspects of the book 'Breaking India' is its research into the new faultlines fabricated by Western scholars and their Indian collaborators. The Afro-Dalit movement is one example. Rajiv Malhotra discovered this in the office of an western academic where he saw the map of India balkanized into Dalitstan and other 'stans' which in turn set him in a quest to investigate who were behind this discourse. (The map is on the book's cover.) Those familiar with modern Tamil literature also know that various Dalit writings increasingly mimic American Blacks' writings. There is a well-organized attempt to shape Dalit experience as a variant of American Black experience, and to make them feel like slaves of other Indians.... This message was posted in the Afro-Dalit site, and an AD representative Clyde Winters responded thus: ".. There is nothing wrong with the Afro-Dalit Movement. You see many Dalits were sold into slavery during the Atlantic Slave Trade. As a result, Afro-Americans (AA) have a direct genetic and historical relationship with Dalits. AAs have recognized a relationship with the Dalits for years, beginning with W.E.B. DuBois and Malcolm X. Since the 1960's, with the creation of the Dalit Panthers, Dalits have been modeling there protest movement on AAs..." After a few excellent comments that call CW's bluff, A. Neelakandan came up with a scholarly rebuttal: "Indian Dalits do not have any special 'genetic relation' with African Americans any more than other Indians do. Dr.Ambedkar vehemently repudiates classifying Dalits as non-Aryans and Brahmins as Aryans. Modern genetics proves Ambedkar's thesis. (Please see: Appendix-A in the book). So the question arises: Whose frame of reference should we use to explain the Dalit experience? W.E.B.Dubois and Malcoim X, or Dr.Ambedkar, Ayyan Kali and Sri Narayana Guru ...?"     For brevity, we have only included excerpts. Read the original thread for the complete debate. March 21 "European Misappropriations of Sanskrit led to the Aryan Race Theory Please read my latest Huffington Post blog, "European Misappropriations of Sanskrit led to the Aryan Race Theory,"   Re: European obsession, not Indian-- read COLONIAL INDOLOGY N. S. Rajaram comments: "In the forthcoming series *A People's History of India, * I (as General Editor) will have a significant section on the evolution of Indian writing, tracing it to the Harappan and pre-Harappan of which a handful of examples are known. It is a fascinating story..." Rajiv Malhotra adds: "Dr.Rajaram wrote: "I strongly recommend Dilip K. Chakravarti's book ColonialIndology (Munshiram Manoharlal). It is heavy going but eye opening about how race and language were mixed up right from the start." I am glad to say that I have enjoyed knowing Prof. Chakravarti (CambridgeUniv.) for several years and we have shared ideas..."

RMF Summary of a Single Discussion - March 15, 2011

This post is focused on summarizing the interesting and useful discussions generated within a single thread on the topics relating to inculturation, English colonial hand in creating the SC/ST list", Caliber of Hindu scholarship, Darwinism, etc. that included injputs from a host of well-known scholars including Rajiv Malhotra, BI co-author A. Neelakandan, K. Elst, and M. Danino, among others. We present excerpts from the original thread:

This thread was initiated by Dr. B. R. Patil who noted:
"Dear Rajiv:
I met you at IIC in Delhi and subsequently offered to organize a seminar there through CSD if a copy of your book is made available for key speakers. Let me know whether we can do what we planned to do then here.
I'm closely following your debate on SC/ST on which I did some research in 1971 at the University of Illinois. To my surprise I discovered then that SC/ST were listed meticulously by British Administrators for Vatican Church as soft targets
of conversion to Christianity as a part of their long standing plan of converting whole of India into Christianity in definite stages and phases prescribed to all missionaries working at all levels in writing..."



In response, Koenraad Elst commented:
"Please make these documents available to us. Without this, you enjoy little credibility, esp. after telling us that the greatest empire on earth acted as running-dog for the Vatican, with which the national Church of England was on hostile terms... "

Rajiv Malhotra followed up:
"Agreeing with Dr. Elst, I, too, would like to see credible evidence that the Vatican was behind the British, given that Vatican and Anglical Church had mutual tensions... "

However Venkat commented:
"Both Dr. Elst and Rajiv have made reasonable demands, and I think the best approach is for Dr. Patil to present the facts. I will make an observation and a suggetsion:

1. The tension between the Anglican church and the Vatican
notwithstanding the British government and the Vatican always collaborated just as the US did despite the tensions between the Protestant denominantions  and the Catholics... " [sic]

Kosla responded to Dr. Elst's remarks thus:
"Apropos Dr. Elst's admonition to Dr. patil:
Of course Dr. Patil should produce the documents. But all classes of professionals make numerous mistakes in there life but by and large their credibility is judged by how they conduct themselves throughout their life and not by one incident. His comment that the damage to the entire Hindu cause would be enormous, is even more egregious, because he is threatening to tar the entire Hindu community for the acts of a few... "

At this point, this thread branched off into two topics. The original one on SC/ST that was put on hold for a while as K. Elst foused on the"Caliber of Hindu Scholarship". Later, A. Neelakandan returned to the original topic here. We first go thru the new thread before returning to the original topic at the end of this post.

K. Elst commented on the Caliber of Hindu Scholarship and has some stinging criticism on the prevaling quality of discussions within Hindu ranks:
"Response to Kosla Vepa:

Hindus and Indian nationalists are already at a great disadvantage when it comes to credibility because of the sorry record of other Hindus and Indian nationalists before them. Along with anyone who associates with them. Even in circles where sympathy could be expected, my raising the issue of the Ayodhya evidence is often greeted with: "Ah, the PN Oak school?" Or my case against the AIT: "Ah, another Dr. Kalyanaraman?"

Because you only talk to captive and little-informed audiences, you simply have no idea how the outside world looks at the argumentation style of Hindu activists..."

Rajiv Malhotra partially agreed with K. Elst:
"I fully agree with KE on the poor caliber of much Hindu scholarship, its inbred nature, its lack of purva-paksha on the "others" in a rigorous manner. Many are too lazy and poorly read outside their formal professions and outside the classical spiritual literature. Not only are they lazy about doing original research, but also lazy about reading what someone else painstakingly wrote ...

But I disagree with KE that western mockery of Hindu scholarship is entirely justified...."

Sriram noted: "This is a more extreme form of the  "liberal" bias within American academia against "conservative" thought; replace liberal with West and conservative with Hindu.  Tribalism within scholar communities is fairly common and the ingroup does not often realize that they are making ad hominem attacks!    Jonathan Haidt made these observations recently  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html"

A USHA Headquarters representative followed up:
"Unfortunately, within the Hindu leadership in the diaspora and in India, there is a lack of respect for truth, logic and facts. I attended one event in India where a prominent and well-respected Hindu leader said that Bill Clinton is a Catholic. Of course the naive audience bought it. When I told him later that President Clinton had never been a Catholic and that he is a practising Baptist, the leader said, "does it make any difference?.. "

The remaining comments in this sub-thread largely agree with K.Elst's point of view about the sub-standard quality of Hindu scholarship. We end the summary of this sub-thread here. The thread can be read in its entirety within the yahoogroups site, and now return to the original question of "SC/ST" and the English colonial influence on the creation of the list.

A. Neelakandan opined on a particular sentence of K.Elst:
"//Also, the census masterminds had their own post-Christian
Darwinian reasons for categorizing the Indians into racial groups.//

The book examines the extent to which Darwinian theories and Biblical conceptualizations played a role in categorizing Indian communities, and the extent to which there was independent thinking. It is usual in Creationist
circles to blame Darwin's evolution for all post-Darwinian racial theories and exercises including the holocaust. Our research showed that as evolution theory started ascendancy in the scientific arena, an influential section of European
elite started using this theory in social realms. They misinterpreted Darwin's usage of the word 'races'...

.... contrary to what Dr. Elst states about the social Darwinian mindset of the census makers, it was not post-Christian or secular, but it simply reinforced the colonial and evangelical ideas of civilizing (= Christianizing) the heathen/inferior race.

The authors have not simply taken in the academically fashionable Western arguments like Darwinism shaping racism, but have gone the extra step to further investigate and show the complicated nature of ideas, intentions and forces
shaping the evolution of racial frameworks ...
"

K.Elst responded to A. Neelakandan thus:
"Response to Aravindan:
Of course Darwinism is a post-Christian development. It broke with fundamental Christian assumptions. It is a different matter that once post-Christian developments become accomplished facts, Christians adapt and try to make use of
them. Thus, the French revolution's notion of human rights was anathema to the Church till after WW2, yet today the missionaries use human-rights talk in their
campaign ... "

Srinivasan noted that "
--Abbe Dubois' book, Hindu Manners and Customs continues to remain in the must read in the Syllabus for Christian seminary Students."


Michel Danino responded to A. Neelakandan:
"Dear Aravindan,
Points well taken, though I feel that apart from the calculation you explain, the East India Co. did see intrinsic merit in Dubois's book (which seems obvious when you read it). It wouldn't have been reprinted so many times otherwise (and
Indian publishers continue to reprint it as though it was a fine work of scholarship!)
As regards De Nobili, do you have firm evidence that he composed the fake Ezourvedam? I thought it had been settled long ago that it wasn't he but French Jesuits of Pondicherry who did it... "


A. Neelakandan in turn responded to M. Danino on De Nobili as follows, while quoting the work of Sitaram Goel:
"'Breaking India' states: "Robert de Nobili the notorious Jesuit ...committed a fraud by claiming to have discovered what he termed as Fifth Veda, which would show entire Indian tradition to be corrupted subset of Christianity. It was
presented as the Jesus Veda and made popular by European Indologists." (p.108)

Whether Robert de Nobili personally fabricated the Christian Fifth Veda or whether he got a lesser French Jesuit to do it does not change the real issue here. The fact is that he propagated this fabrication with missionary zeal both
in India and in Europe. Historian Sita Ram Goel states:

"De Nobili composed several books and tracts. They were written in Sanskrit or Tamil but packed with Christian lore... "

Carpentier added:
"It is almost a tradition for Christian missionaries in many lands to use and appropriate native symbols, texts and stories to facilitate conversion by arguing that the native religions were anticipating the coming of the Saviour and were hence approximations of Christianity. " 

R. V further notes:
"But with the strategy of "acculturation" things seem to have come back again to (mis) appropriation and deceit by the Missionary conversion apparatus in India. A very large number of converted Indian men and women carry Hindu names .. "

This ends the thread. Aravindan Neelakandan corrects an original statement as follows:
"//The fact is that he propagated this fabrication with missionary zeal...//
This should read: The fact is that he propagated this fraudulent idea of the discovery of a Christian Fifth Veda with missionary zeal..."