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RMF Summary: Week of December 10 - 16, 2012
December 11
Have you interacted with Indian Christian Theologians in India
Dear Mr. Malhotra: I wonder if you have engaged Indian Christian theologians either in India or outside the same way you have interacted with Caucasian Christian theologians.
December 14
December 15 (New Post)
Have you interacted with Indian Christian Theologians in India
Dear Mr. Malhotra: I wonder if you have engaged Indian Christian theologians either in India or outside the same way you have interacted with Caucasian Christian theologians.
Can you elaborate on your interactions with them?
Rajiv's response:
"Please see my debate with the Indian Christian pastor held at Princeton University:
Make sure you see all the videos to get a good impression of what happened, and why these folks ran away. The attendees felt that their canned positions (taught by their seminaries) did not hold, up which frustrated them. "
Make sure you see all the videos to get a good impression of what happened, and why these folks ran away. The attendees felt that their canned positions (taught by their seminaries) did not hold, up which frustrated them. "
(This is yet another occasion where the opposition runs away without completing the debate with Rajiv).
Arun adds:
"As a follow-up, please read this essay in the Infinity Foundation website,It is about Svadhyaya, by Makarand Paranjpe. These kinds of efforts, like Svadhyaya, Ekal Vidyalaya movement, that are the
answer to the gentleman in the "unfortunate incident" piece of the video."
answer to the gentleman in the "unfortunate incident" piece of the video."
December 12 (continuing thread from December 4)
Subra responds:
"Vibha:
1. thanks for taking the time to respond. The Hindu society offered mutual respect, but the reception from the other side ranged from tolerating to outright rejection. hence temporary.
2. Since u mentioned Jinnah, here's a related hypothesis. Take Pakistan. There is a case to be made that a main reason Pakistan has not totally collapsed despite the incredible pressures they are subject to is because of the residual 'anti-fragile DNA' of Dharmic integral unity they retain, not their new-found Islamic history-centrism or western secularism. Every major split, be it in Baluchistan or East Pakistan is a crack in their fragile synthetic unity forcibly superimposed on original IU. Even today, we can see the sporadic attempts there to use the Bandhu principle to regrow what was lost, even if unconsciously (via Hindu dance, music, etc). If this hypothesis is true, the violent extermination of the Dharmic culture in East & west pakistan will result in a loss of this precious DNA and considerably weaken the bonds in their society."
1. thanks for taking the time to respond. The Hindu society offered mutual respect, but the reception from the other side ranged from tolerating to outright rejection. hence temporary.
2. Since u mentioned Jinnah, here's a related hypothesis. Take Pakistan. There is a case to be made that a main reason Pakistan has not totally collapsed despite the incredible pressures they are subject to is because of the residual 'anti-fragile DNA' of Dharmic integral unity they retain, not their new-found Islamic history-centrism or western secularism. Every major split, be it in Baluchistan or East Pakistan is a crack in their fragile synthetic unity forcibly superimposed on original IU. Even today, we can see the sporadic attempts there to use the Bandhu principle to regrow what was lost, even if unconsciously (via Hindu dance, music, etc). If this hypothesis is true, the violent extermination of the Dharmic culture in East & west pakistan will result in a loss of this precious DNA and considerably weaken the bonds in their society."
December 14 (New Thread)
self-confidence
Maria posts:
Maria posts:
"Recently I met an American pastor (Presbyterian) who mentioned an interesting incident:
some church in US, (I believe it was Baptist) had declared that Jews dont have the grace of God because they dont believe in Jesus. His own Church called for a meeting and there they made a declaration that Jews have direct access to God and dont need to go via Jesus. It came in the local newspaper. In his town there are a few Jewish families. He was called by the most prominent of the Jews, usually an amiable fellow. When he reached his shop, the pastor got blasted: Who do you think you people are? You have no business to make a declaration like this. We know we have direct access to God, we dont need your certificate. The pastor told me that actually he thought the Jews would be pleased nothing of this sort.
It made me think about the Hindu approach. I feel it has to be on many levels. The academic one is no doubt very important, and also is a street response, when one meets Christians or priests in India. Not everyone is an intellectual and some solid self-confidence regarding Hinduism may put proselytizers in place. In my own way, whenever I meet Christians, for example auto/ taxi driver, I ask them not to believe when Christians tell him that Hinduism is bad. And I surprise them by telling, that I consider it the best of all..."
some church in US, (I believe it was Baptist) had declared that Jews dont have the grace of God because they dont believe in Jesus. His own Church called for a meeting and there they made a declaration that Jews have direct access to God and dont need to go via Jesus. It came in the local newspaper. In his town there are a few Jewish families. He was called by the most prominent of the Jews, usually an amiable fellow. When he reached his shop, the pastor got blasted: Who do you think you people are? You have no business to make a declaration like this. We know we have direct access to God, we dont need your certificate. The pastor told me that actually he thought the Jews would be pleased nothing of this sort.
It made me think about the Hindu approach. I feel it has to be on many levels. The academic one is no doubt very important, and also is a street response, when one meets Christians or priests in India. Not everyone is an intellectual and some solid self-confidence regarding Hinduism may put proselytizers in place. In my own way, whenever I meet Christians, for example auto/ taxi driver, I ask them not to believe when Christians tell him that Hinduism is bad. And I surprise them by telling, that I consider it the best of all..."
December 14
Devendra shares an update on another upcoming milestone:
"As some of you may know,Hindi version of Shri Rajiv Malhotra's pioneer
book,'Being Different' will be published in a few months. The English
version was a best seller,and has churned thought process of readers who
delved into this treatise that contains many original and
thought-provoking ideas,which came after a long research and 'manthan'
process of almost two decades.
Here is the help I am requesting from you (actually,you will be helping your own culture and tradition with your constructive help):
1. What will be the most fitting title in Hindi for 'Being Different' - An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism".
2. What can you do to make the Hindi version of Being Different one of the best Hindi books ever published. Please indicate -
a. The number of copies you will buy.
b. Endorsements for the book from prominent people you can obtain (by the end of January, 2013)
c. Publicity launch you can organize in your town - if you live in Bharat. Later on, we will also need people to organize lecture tours of Shri Malhotra in USA and Canada to promote and sell the Hindi version. Shri Malhotra speaks very well in Hindi.
Please also start writing and informing others about this ground-breaking book being published in Hindi. Your help will go a long way in popularising and establishing the ideas of this modern-day Vivekananda to help save our civilization. This book offers the best defence of our culture,and if we can expose Bhartiya population to the ideas contain in the book,the pseudo-secularism and stockholm syndrome will be replaced with genuine pride and trust in our own civilization."
Here is the help I am requesting from you (actually,you will be helping your own culture and tradition with your constructive help):
1. What will be the most fitting title in Hindi for 'Being Different' - An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism".
2. What can you do to make the Hindi version of Being Different one of the best Hindi books ever published. Please indicate -
a. The number of copies you will buy.
b. Endorsements for the book from prominent people you can obtain (by the end of January, 2013)
c. Publicity launch you can organize in your town - if you live in Bharat. Later on, we will also need people to organize lecture tours of Shri Malhotra in USA and Canada to promote and sell the Hindi version. Shri Malhotra speaks very well in Hindi.
Please also start writing and informing others about this ground-breaking book being published in Hindi. Your help will go a long way in popularising and establishing the ideas of this modern-day Vivekananda to help save our civilization. This book offers the best defence of our culture,and if we can expose Bhartiya population to the ideas contain in the book,the pseudo-secularism and stockholm syndrome will be replaced with genuine pride and trust in our own civilization."
[RMF Moderator's Note: Ideas/leads on "Being Different" Hindi Version,
like the enthusiastic response below, should in future be sent directly
to Devendra Singh ji at devendra60@... .]
There were many responses with various titles suggested. Please visit the thread, and post your own preference there! It is a celebration.
December 15 (New Post)
Rajiv's new blog on FirstPost.
Kajal posts:
Kajal posts:
Please read Rajiv's blog on FirstPost (an Indian blog). This is the 3rd blog on FirstPost. This one reiterates Rajiv's demands for rhetorical changes in inter-faith dialogue. Ironically, Condoleezza Rice seems to have picked up the "mutual respect" terminology, though we are unsure she appreciate all the implications. For words can precede behavior and nothing less than respect (as opposed to tolerance) should suffice for Hindus participating in inter-faith meetings.
Surya responds:
" Such egalitarian thinking of Swami Vivekananda is often wasted on Christian apologists (for example, Ravi Zacharias) who essentially argue that falsehood cannot claim for mutual respect along with truth. They argue as follows:
Claim 1: All religions have truth claims which are exclusive. Even ultra-inclusive Bahai faith excludes the exclusivists.
Maria adds:
Rajiv's response:
"An important point is made above. I was planning to write a
eulogy of Pt. Ravi Shankar emphasizing that he was the quintessential non-digestible Indian. Due to my own backlog of work,I could not do so. ... My concern (and prediction) is that after his death we will see sitar digested into a subset of western string instruments. What will also be lost will be raga, as that form will get reduced to normative/orderly music in the Western sense. I allude to raga differences in the Order and Chaos chapter. Because Ravi Shankar embodied the improvisation principle of raga, he was not digestible into western music. After him, I doubt there is another personality with this clarity and courage. Ravi Shankar did not care that Beatles were far more famous and rich in money than he; he insisted that they comply as his students with all the traditions of Indian music - no drugs, no smoking, remove shoes, no alcohol, touch guru's feet before the class, sarasvati vandana, etc. "
Surya responds:
" Such egalitarian thinking of Swami Vivekananda is often wasted on Christian apologists (for example, Ravi Zacharias) who essentially argue that falsehood cannot claim for mutual respect along with truth. They argue as follows:
Claim 1: All religions have truth claims which are exclusive. Even ultra-inclusive Bahai faith excludes the exclusivists.
Argument:
For any religion to have a claim of distinctness, it needs to have
truth claims in it that is incompatible with the other religion that it
is compared to. If it did not, it would merely be a subset.
Claim 2:
Since religions have truth claims which make them mutually
incompatible, therefore at most one of them can be true. In fact, it is
even logically possible that all of them are false.
Argument: law of excluded-middle
Claim 3: Only Christianity is the true religion.
Argument:
Historical evidence shows that Jesus resurrected after crucifixion.
This is proof for his divinity. Christianity is the only religion that
can offer proof for its truth claims. Therefore, those claims are
true. Therefore, Christianity is a true religion.
From
claims 2 and 3, all other religions are false. One cannot be required
to accept false claims. Thus, Christian position of exclusivism is
justified with evidence. Why should they show respect for claims that
oppose the truth?
Unless comments of Swami
Vivekananda are backed up with an argument that invalidates the argument
above, the idea of mutual respect will have no reception on the other
side.."
Maria adds:
"Surya, You are right that egalitarian thinking is wasted on Christian fundamentalists, who stick to the fundamentals, but less and less people are enamoured by these fundamentals, and thats where Hindus can have influence. The Time article quotes some fundamentalists, but also asks Is Bell's Christianity "less judgmental, more fluid, open to questioning
the most ancient of assumptions” on an inexorable rise? And ends on a positive note with a quote of Bell: something new is in the air.
... And nowadays, where physics has gone so far as to imply that history has no standing in absolute truth, what prevents Hindus/ Indian tradition to claim that they are the only ones who do not depend on historical figures but on enquiry,
analysis and intuitive insight by persons who have purified their means of perception and who show how others can come to the same experience and therefore have the best approach/ chance to discover what is really true about us and the universe.."
the most ancient of assumptions” on an inexorable rise? And ends on a positive note with a quote of Bell: something new is in the air.
... And nowadays, where physics has gone so far as to imply that history has no standing in absolute truth, what prevents Hindus/ Indian tradition to claim that they are the only ones who do not depend on historical figures but on enquiry,
analysis and intuitive insight by persons who have purified their means of perception and who show how others can come to the same experience and therefore have the best approach/ chance to discover what is really true about us and the universe.."
December 16 (New Thread)
Pt Ravi Shankar Interview
tvikhanas posts:
tvikhanas posts:
"... The American interviewer asks when he
thinks we will see genuine "world music". Pt Ravi Shankar responds by saying he will not comprise the purity of his tradition and instead of one world music would like to see rich variety.
Only a competent and confident person can respond this way. Lesser persons would hide behind vague generalities to avoid exposing their ignorance or confronting the issues..."
thinks we will see genuine "world music". Pt Ravi Shankar responds by saying he will not comprise the purity of his tradition and instead of one world music would like to see rich variety.
Only a competent and confident person can respond this way. Lesser persons would hide behind vague generalities to avoid exposing their ignorance or confronting the issues..."
Rajiv's response:
"An important point is made above. I was planning to write a
eulogy of Pt. Ravi Shankar emphasizing that he was the quintessential non-digestible Indian. Due to my own backlog of work,I could not do so. ... My concern (and prediction) is that after his death we will see sitar digested into a subset of western string instruments. What will also be lost will be raga, as that form will get reduced to normative/orderly music in the Western sense. I allude to raga differences in the Order and Chaos chapter. Because Ravi Shankar embodied the improvisation principle of raga, he was not digestible into western music. After him, I doubt there is another personality with this clarity and courage. Ravi Shankar did not care that Beatles were far more famous and rich in money than he; he insisted that they comply as his students with all the traditions of Indian music - no drugs, no smoking, remove shoes, no alcohol, touch guru's feet before the class, sarasvati vandana, etc. "
Interview of Rajiv Malhotra with Christian Post
The first thread carries the entire email interview of Rajiv Malhotra with Christian Post that they did not print.
December 11 (New Thread)
The interview that Christian Post would not print (it seems)
Many months ago I was approached by a journalist named Myles Collier from Christian Post, who told me that their media wanted to interview me on BD. I asked that it be done by email, so that there is an accurate record and no misunderstanding later. This was accepted by his editors, and what followed was an email exchange in which I answered every question asked of me. Below is a complete list of all the questions and my answers.
As you can see from their questions, this organizations has deep rooted d ideas supporting Dalit Christianity. I was told that the interview would appear very soon and that I would receive the url. I never heard back after the interview was one. My prediction at the time was that once the senior editors saw my responses, they would not want to publish it, because one of my conditions was that any alterations in what I said required my prior written approval.
-------------------------------------------
a) The book explains the role of U.S. and European churches, academics, think-tanks,foundations, government and human rights groups in fostering divisive identities between the Dravidian and Dalit communities on the one hand and the rest of India based on outdated racial theories.
b) Its how outdated racial theories continue to provide academic frameworks and fuel the rhetoric that can trigger civil wars and genocides in developing countries.
c) The Dravidian movement's 200-year history has such origins. Its latest manifestation is the "Dravidian Christianity" movement that fabricates a political and cultural history to exploit old fault lines. I refer to this as the "breaking India project". Please see: http://www.breakingindia.com/
a) The reception in Indian think tanks and defense study networks has been very good. The book was launched by senior Indian retired security and military officials. See videos at:
b) There has also been a very good reception among the general public in both India and the US. The book has already gone through 5 print runs and become a national best-seller. Breaking India was quoted during the recent controversial Kodankulam protests.
c) The latest jacket's endorsements are also self-explanatory– please see:
d) It has been translated into Tamil and the Hindi edition will soon be ready as well.
a) Calling the situation of the Dalits the "greatest human rights violation in history" is an example of the sensationalist pandering and politicization that Breaking India explains. Anyone researching atrocities objectively must examine the following ones: White European Christian conquerors of America against Native Americans and Australian aborigines, Spanish Inquisition against women and native faiths, Portuguese Inquisition against Indians, Christian slavery of Africans, Christian colonization of Asia and other continents during which hundreds of millions were killed. In fact, Christianity was built by the sword ever since the time Emperor Constantine hijacked it and turned it into a dogma for state theocracy.
b) Joseph D'souza is trying to help cover up this White Christian guilt of perpetrating many of history's worst atrocities. Non-White Christians like D'souza perform this cover up for White Christians, and for this they earn funding and career opportunities. I refer to such persons as `sepoys', after the Indians who served under British rule and helped police and control other Indians. This role is similar to that of the Anglo-Irishmen who were used by the English to colonize Ireland.
c) Of course, all violations of human rights are to be condemned, and we must work hard to give dignity to every human across the globe. But one cannot distort history in order to open the door for Western interventions as has been their strategy for centuries.
d) There is a long history of many Indian communities becoming poor and disenfranchised due to dislocation under Islamic and British oppression, and many of them turned into present day Dalits. This is not a "Hindu problem" per se as is the fashion to call it in the Christian press. In fact, Dalit Christians have litigated against the Indian Church for prejudices against them that are institutionalized within Christianity – including separate burial grounds, and bias in the allocation of funds.
e) Most Christian nations that were former colonies, such as the ones in Latin America, Philippines, etc. have far worse per capita statistics of crimes than India does.
f) Also,the Church remains racially very much divided even in rich Christian countries like USA: That's why there are separate Black churches, Korean churches,Hispanic churches, etc. Even among Indian Christians in USA there are separate churches for Tamils and Malayalees, etc.
g) So human rights activism must begin at home – Christians must work within Christian society to solve internal problems, rather than trying to export cures for social maladies they are suffering themselves, and especially diseases they have spread elsewhere. The human rights record of atrocities by Christendom is woven deeply into the tapestry of world history.
h) The Church has no moral authority to intervene in other countries using the pretext of bringing them human rights.
i) India's sovereignty and its internal institutions for improving the lot of all its citizens must be respected and strengthened.
a) India,like any former colony, has its own share of social injustices that need to be continually addressed and resolved.
b) But separatist forces supported and funded by external nexuses are constructing a dangerous and fictitious anti-national grand narrative. This has been forged specifically to alienate Dalits from their own culture and country by exacerbating societal divisions. This is the latest version of the old divide-and-rule strategy practiced by European colonizers everywhere.
c) All democracy-loving Americans should worry about the consequences of allowing narrow-minded Christian organizations to undermine the largest democracy in the world.
d) Dalit communities are not monolithic and have extremely diverse histories and social dynamics – so you cannot lump all of them in one box. Also, not all Dalit communities are at the same socio-economic level or homogeneously poor. Nor are they static or inherently subordinate to others. Indeed, there are several Dalit billionaires, top politicians and other leaders – a Dalit has even been the President of India.
e) While Dravidian and Dalit identities were initially constructed separately, there is now a strategy at work to link them in order to denigrate and demonize Indian classical traditions as a common enemy. This, in turn, has been mapped on to a newly manufactured Afro-Dalit narrative which claims that Dalits are racially related to Africans and all other Indians are "whites." Thus, Indian civilization itself is demonized as anti-humanistic and oppressive.
f) This has become the playground of major foreign players, both from the evangelical right and from the academic left. It has opened huge career opportunities for an assortment of middlemen including foreign-funded NGOs, intellectuals and"champions of the oppressed."
g) While the need for relief and structural change is immense, the shortsighted selfish politics is often empowering some individual leaders rather than the people whose cause is being championed. The"solutions" often exacerbate the problems. See:
a) Genuine grievances and injustices certainly do exist. There is no whitewashing here.
b) But the book shows how such existing fault lines are used by transnational forces to subvert India and brand Indian civilization as hopeless and in need of being replaced by a superior imported variety. This can make Dalits believe that their liberation lies in toppling India's civilization and nationhood.
c) Politicized Christianity in India maps Biblical notions on to a Marxist interpretation of"class struggle", i.e. Liberation Theology, even though the American sponsors do not support such ideology domestically where they live. So they are pulling the strings of society and politics half way around the world in an alien place without having any skin in the game. This is hypocrisy.
d) My research tracked the money trails from the West where funds are raised for "education," "human rights," "empowerment training," and "leadership training," but end up in programs designed to produce angry youths who feel disenfranchised from Indian identity. Already the Baptists have created separatist movements in India's northeast region by converting the natives and shifting their loyalties.
e) Similar interventions by some of the same global forces have resulted in genocides and civil wars in Sri Lanka, Rwanda, etc.
a) Itis ironic that Christians are able to make such assumptions at a time when Hindu ideas are being appropriated into Christianity to create a more benevolent theology for Christianity. Hindu metaphysics and praxis have been digested into Christianity for a long time, but very systematically for at least 200 years,into such diverse areas as: sacredness of the earth and the divine feminine;yoga and the human body as not being inherently sinful but being inherently divine; animal rights and vegetarianism; the inherent unity of consciousness as opposed to the dualism of Judeo-Christianity; etc.
b) I am writing a whole series of books on how major Christian thinkers have acknowledged Hindu sources for some of their most important rethinking on Christianity.Unfortunately, subsequent Christians like to dilute these Hindu influences and eventually forget them entirely, and replace them with Judeo-Christian sources,in order to hide the "Hinduism inside" that exists at the heart of much of today's reinterpreted Christianity.
c) So,on the one hand, we have this very frantic appropriation going on, and the Hinduorigins are being erased. Simultaneously, on the other hand, the very sameHindu sources are being abused as "oppressive". How could Hindu ideas be usefulto liberate Christianity from Christianity's own shackles, and yet Hinduism be branded so vehemently as oppressive?
d) I am reminded of the way Greek thought was appropriated by St. Augustine and others in order to start Christian theology (prior to which Christian historians admit that the Bible lacked philosophical content), and yet the very same Greek society was condemned as "pagan" and finished off. I have referred to this as a form of arson: the arsonist robs the bank and then burns it down to hide the evidence. The Christian West has perfected this type of activity over the centuries: appropriate and simultaneously destroy the source.
e) I am amazed at the sweeping assumptions in your question. It is hypocritical for Christians to point fingers at the alleged "propensity to keep undesired individuals oppressed" in Hinduism, given Christianity's track record on oppression of indigenous cultures, sexual abuse of children, persecution of great scientists and thinkers who did not accede to Christian dogma of the time, systemic repression of women and homophobia.
f) As for Hindutva, that is a specific political movement and you will have to interview its leaders for their views. I can only speak for Hindu dharma as an individual practitioner-scholar, and not for any institution.
a) This statement is too general to be possible to answer. There are many issues discussed in my works, and hence you have to cite a concrete example of what troubles you, so I may be able to address it. Breaking India exposes propaganda; it does not create it. It is the result of a fact finding mission undertaken over decades and the result of rigorous analysis, not sloganeering.
b) I anticipated that my findings will trouble many persons who have a vested interest to defend a fabricated history, a fabricated grandiose notion of their own religious supremacy and exclusivity, and who are in many cases also sustaining their careers and lifestyles based on pushing ideas on behalf of powerful global nexuses.
c) If any objections to my research come from persons who do not fall in these categories and are based on primary sources, I will consider them respectfully and modify my views if necessary.
a) Mahatma Gandhi lashed out against Christian missionaries numerous times because they linked their social work to conversion. I agree with his posture. Christians who are genuinely motivated must provide unconditional help from one human to another.
b) To denigrate another's culture is a form of himsa (harm) and violates the dharmic principle known as ahimsa. Christians must learn mutual respect for others and not use mere "tolerance" as a cover up of hatred. (For more details on my principle of mutual respect and how it differs from tolerance, please see: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rajiv-malhotra/religious-difference-with-mutual-respect_b_1165589.html)
c) Regarding the groups you have named, I oppose their political projects and my book exposes what they are up to. DFN (with two directors from OM) uses the Dalit face to hide that it is a hardcore operational wing of American right-wing agendas in India. The Dalit label gives it the emotional appeal and aura of legitimacy to intervene in India's affairs. DFN brings speakers and activists from India to testify before US government commissions, policy think-tanks and churches,with the explicit goal of promoting US intervention in India (Breaking India, pages 222-223).
d) What most of my American Christian friends are shocked to learn is that the kind of Christianity being propagated in India is often similar to the radical,medieval Christianity that was based on performing "miracles" and on hate speech. Most modern Christians in USA have rejected that Christianity, but the obsession for numerical growth in Christian population has become the evangelical obsession. The sole focus is on numbers, not quality or genuine religiosity.
e) There are also many good indigenous grassroots movements in India working for Dalit causes,which do not get the type of prominence or funding that Western-supported NGOs do. They are sadly underfunded because they lack the sophisticated fund raising and publicity machinery. Yet such indigenous organizations have a far better efficiency in the use of funds for making a positive impact than the foreign ones do.
f) My American Christian friends are grateful to get informed about this, as it enables them to make better choices in philanthropy, and be more careful before they fund certain foreign missions. Since my book is beginning to impact the evangelists' fund-raising in the US, they want Christian media like yours to poison the credibility of my work.
g) But any religious community must be open to external criticism and self-reflection in order to improve its religious standards. Given Christianity's long history of abuses, it would be foolish for American Christians to fail to examine my findings with a receptive mind.
a) I coined the term "difference anxiety" to refer to one's anxiety that the other is different in some way—be it gender, sexual orientation, race,ethnicity, age or religion. The alternative is difference without anxiety, and better still is celebration of difference.
b) To appreciate this very Hindu principle, one must start by observing that the cosmos is built on the principle of difference—in plants, animals, geographies,and even each moment in time is unique. So differences in culture, human cognition and worldviews are entirely natural.
c) It is interesting that westerners are so protective of the diversity of plants and animals, but the same emphasis is not placed on protecting civilizational and faith diversity. The reason is that Westerners are driven by the urge to control externally – control over other humans, nature, etc. Homogeneity based on fixed canonized norms helps one control; hence difference and especially flux are a cause for anxiety. Therefore, Western religions have traditionally pushed for monocultures.
d) Western Monotheism is more appropriately described as "my-theism," meaning that my idea of theism is the only valid one.
e) In Hinduism, sva-dharma is the path for a given individual, the "sva"prefix literally meaning "my." It's like "My Documents" or"My Favorites" on your computer. God made us unique individuals, each with a purpose based on past conditioning, including experiences in past births, and each of us is equipped to discover his or her sva-dharma.
f) To prevent repetition of some of the worst organized, large scale atrocities in world history that were committed for the sake of spreading a uniform theology,it is time we respected difference. Please see: http://www.patheos.com/Books/Book-Club/Rajiv-Malhotra-Being-Different/Importance-of-Being-Different-QA-Rajiv-Malhotra-02-20-2012
December 11 (New Thread)
The interview that Christian Post would not print (it seems)
Many months ago I was approached by a journalist named Myles Collier from Christian Post, who told me that their media wanted to interview me on BD. I asked that it be done by email, so that there is an accurate record and no misunderstanding later. This was accepted by his editors, and what followed was an email exchange in which I answered every question asked of me. Below is a complete list of all the questions and my answers.
As you can see from their questions, this organizations has deep rooted d ideas supporting Dalit Christianity. I was told that the interview would appear very soon and that I would receive the url. I never heard back after the interview was one. My prediction at the time was that once the senior editors saw my responses, they would not want to publish it, because one of my conditions was that any alterations in what I said required my prior written approval.
-------------------------------------------
Rajiv Malhotra's Interview with Myles Collier from Christian Post
1. Question: For those not familiar with your work what is the main thesis of your book, Breaking India?
Response:
a) The book explains the role of U.S. and European churches, academics, think-tanks,foundations, government and human rights groups in fostering divisive identities between the Dravidian and Dalit communities on the one hand and the rest of India based on outdated racial theories.
b) Its how outdated racial theories continue to provide academic frameworks and fuel the rhetoric that can trigger civil wars and genocides in developing countries.
c) The Dravidian movement's 200-year history has such origins. Its latest manifestation is the "Dravidian Christianity" movement that fabricates a political and cultural history to exploit old fault lines. I refer to this as the "breaking India project". Please see: http://www.breakingindia.com/
2. Question: What kind of reception has your book garnered?
Response:
a) The reception in Indian think tanks and defense study networks has been very good. The book was launched by senior Indian retired security and military officials. See videos at:
http://beingdifferentbook.com/globalization-and-world-peace/
http://beingdifferentbook.com/india-in-the-eagles-eye/
http://beingdifferentbook.com/american-theory-making-on-india/
http://beingdifferentbook.com/where-is-india-in-the-encounter/
b) There has also been a very good reception among the general public in both India and the US. The book has already gone through 5 print runs and become a national best-seller. Breaking India was quoted during the recent controversial Kodankulam protests.
c) The latest jacket's endorsements are also self-explanatory– please see:
http://breakingindia.com/images/bic.pdf
d) It has been translated into Tamil and the Hindi edition will soon be ready as well.
3. Question:
When specifically considering the situation of the Dalit's Dr. Joseph
D'souza describes it as the"greatest human rights violation in history"
-- is this an accurate portrayal?
Response:
a) Calling the situation of the Dalits the "greatest human rights violation in history" is an example of the sensationalist pandering and politicization that Breaking India explains. Anyone researching atrocities objectively must examine the following ones: White European Christian conquerors of America against Native Americans and Australian aborigines, Spanish Inquisition against women and native faiths, Portuguese Inquisition against Indians, Christian slavery of Africans, Christian colonization of Asia and other continents during which hundreds of millions were killed. In fact, Christianity was built by the sword ever since the time Emperor Constantine hijacked it and turned it into a dogma for state theocracy.
b) Joseph D'souza is trying to help cover up this White Christian guilt of perpetrating many of history's worst atrocities. Non-White Christians like D'souza perform this cover up for White Christians, and for this they earn funding and career opportunities. I refer to such persons as `sepoys', after the Indians who served under British rule and helped police and control other Indians. This role is similar to that of the Anglo-Irishmen who were used by the English to colonize Ireland.
c) Of course, all violations of human rights are to be condemned, and we must work hard to give dignity to every human across the globe. But one cannot distort history in order to open the door for Western interventions as has been their strategy for centuries.
d) There is a long history of many Indian communities becoming poor and disenfranchised due to dislocation under Islamic and British oppression, and many of them turned into present day Dalits. This is not a "Hindu problem" per se as is the fashion to call it in the Christian press. In fact, Dalit Christians have litigated against the Indian Church for prejudices against them that are institutionalized within Christianity – including separate burial grounds, and bias in the allocation of funds.
e) Most Christian nations that were former colonies, such as the ones in Latin America, Philippines, etc. have far worse per capita statistics of crimes than India does.
f) Also,the Church remains racially very much divided even in rich Christian countries like USA: That's why there are separate Black churches, Korean churches,Hispanic churches, etc. Even among Indian Christians in USA there are separate churches for Tamils and Malayalees, etc.
g) So human rights activism must begin at home – Christians must work within Christian society to solve internal problems, rather than trying to export cures for social maladies they are suffering themselves, and especially diseases they have spread elsewhere. The human rights record of atrocities by Christendom is woven deeply into the tapestry of world history.
h) The Church has no moral authority to intervene in other countries using the pretext of bringing them human rights.
i) India's sovereignty and its internal institutions for improving the lot of all its citizens must be respected and strengthened.
4. Question:
There are many organizations dedicated to helping and empowering the
Dalit's, yet you have made the claim that western influences actually
hinder progressive movements and contribute to an ever hostile social
environment—why is this?
Response:
a) India,like any former colony, has its own share of social injustices that need to be continually addressed and resolved.
b) But separatist forces supported and funded by external nexuses are constructing a dangerous and fictitious anti-national grand narrative. This has been forged specifically to alienate Dalits from their own culture and country by exacerbating societal divisions. This is the latest version of the old divide-and-rule strategy practiced by European colonizers everywhere.
c) All democracy-loving Americans should worry about the consequences of allowing narrow-minded Christian organizations to undermine the largest democracy in the world.
d) Dalit communities are not monolithic and have extremely diverse histories and social dynamics – so you cannot lump all of them in one box. Also, not all Dalit communities are at the same socio-economic level or homogeneously poor. Nor are they static or inherently subordinate to others. Indeed, there are several Dalit billionaires, top politicians and other leaders – a Dalit has even been the President of India.
e) While Dravidian and Dalit identities were initially constructed separately, there is now a strategy at work to link them in order to denigrate and demonize Indian classical traditions as a common enemy. This, in turn, has been mapped on to a newly manufactured Afro-Dalit narrative which claims that Dalits are racially related to Africans and all other Indians are "whites." Thus, Indian civilization itself is demonized as anti-humanistic and oppressive.
f) This has become the playground of major foreign players, both from the evangelical right and from the academic left. It has opened huge career opportunities for an assortment of middlemen including foreign-funded NGOs, intellectuals and"champions of the oppressed."
g) While the need for relief and structural change is immense, the shortsighted selfish politics is often empowering some individual leaders rather than the people whose cause is being championed. The"solutions" often exacerbate the problems. See:
5. Question:
What is your current feeling as to the situation created by outside
organizations and the impact that has on the Dalit population?
Response:
a) Genuine grievances and injustices certainly do exist. There is no whitewashing here.
b) But the book shows how such existing fault lines are used by transnational forces to subvert India and brand Indian civilization as hopeless and in need of being replaced by a superior imported variety. This can make Dalits believe that their liberation lies in toppling India's civilization and nationhood.
c) Politicized Christianity in India maps Biblical notions on to a Marxist interpretation of"class struggle", i.e. Liberation Theology, even though the American sponsors do not support such ideology domestically where they live. So they are pulling the strings of society and politics half way around the world in an alien place without having any skin in the game. This is hypocrisy.
d) My research tracked the money trails from the West where funds are raised for "education," "human rights," "empowerment training," and "leadership training," but end up in programs designed to produce angry youths who feel disenfranchised from Indian identity. Already the Baptists have created separatist movements in India's northeast region by converting the natives and shifting their loyalties.
e) Similar interventions by some of the same global forces have resulted in genocides and civil wars in Sri Lanka, Rwanda, etc.
6. Question:
There has been a great deal of discussion over the role of Hinduism in
India and its propensity to keep "undesired" individuals oppressed, I was
curious as to your thoughts about the role of Hinduism and the Hindutva
in India?
Response:
a) Itis ironic that Christians are able to make such assumptions at a time when Hindu ideas are being appropriated into Christianity to create a more benevolent theology for Christianity. Hindu metaphysics and praxis have been digested into Christianity for a long time, but very systematically for at least 200 years,into such diverse areas as: sacredness of the earth and the divine feminine;yoga and the human body as not being inherently sinful but being inherently divine; animal rights and vegetarianism; the inherent unity of consciousness as opposed to the dualism of Judeo-Christianity; etc.
b) I am writing a whole series of books on how major Christian thinkers have acknowledged Hindu sources for some of their most important rethinking on Christianity.Unfortunately, subsequent Christians like to dilute these Hindu influences and eventually forget them entirely, and replace them with Judeo-Christian sources,in order to hide the "Hinduism inside" that exists at the heart of much of today's reinterpreted Christianity.
c) So,on the one hand, we have this very frantic appropriation going on, and the Hinduorigins are being erased. Simultaneously, on the other hand, the very sameHindu sources are being abused as "oppressive". How could Hindu ideas be usefulto liberate Christianity from Christianity's own shackles, and yet Hinduism be branded so vehemently as oppressive?
d) I am reminded of the way Greek thought was appropriated by St. Augustine and others in order to start Christian theology (prior to which Christian historians admit that the Bible lacked philosophical content), and yet the very same Greek society was condemned as "pagan" and finished off. I have referred to this as a form of arson: the arsonist robs the bank and then burns it down to hide the evidence. The Christian West has perfected this type of activity over the centuries: appropriate and simultaneously destroy the source.
e) I am amazed at the sweeping assumptions in your question. It is hypocritical for Christians to point fingers at the alleged "propensity to keep undesired individuals oppressed" in Hinduism, given Christianity's track record on oppression of indigenous cultures, sexual abuse of children, persecution of great scientists and thinkers who did not accede to Christian dogma of the time, systemic repression of women and homophobia.
f) As for Hindutva, that is a specific political movement and you will have to interview its leaders for their views. I can only speak for Hindu dharma as an individual practitioner-scholar, and not for any institution.
7. Question:
How do you respond to those who would call the research found in your
book sound, however claim thatyour interpretation and subsequent
propaganda message is wrong?
Response:
a) This statement is too general to be possible to answer. There are many issues discussed in my works, and hence you have to cite a concrete example of what troubles you, so I may be able to address it. Breaking India exposes propaganda; it does not create it. It is the result of a fact finding mission undertaken over decades and the result of rigorous analysis, not sloganeering.
b) I anticipated that my findings will trouble many persons who have a vested interest to defend a fabricated history, a fabricated grandiose notion of their own religious supremacy and exclusivity, and who are in many cases also sustaining their careers and lifestyles based on pushing ideas on behalf of powerful global nexuses.
c) If any objections to my research come from persons who do not fall in these categories and are based on primary sources, I will consider them respectfully and modify my views if necessary.
8. Question:
The Dalit Freedom Network and Operation Mobilization are two groups that
are building schools which offer a English-medium education with a
Christian world-view perspective while also offering vocational training
to help abused and trafficked individuals in India. If local programs are
not offering opportunities for marginalized people why would it be
negative for Dalit's and other lower caste members to exercise choice and
work towards a better future?
Response:
a) Mahatma Gandhi lashed out against Christian missionaries numerous times because they linked their social work to conversion. I agree with his posture. Christians who are genuinely motivated must provide unconditional help from one human to another.
b) To denigrate another's culture is a form of himsa (harm) and violates the dharmic principle known as ahimsa. Christians must learn mutual respect for others and not use mere "tolerance" as a cover up of hatred. (For more details on my principle of mutual respect and how it differs from tolerance, please see: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rajiv-malhotra/religious-difference-with-mutual-respect_b_1165589.html)
c) Regarding the groups you have named, I oppose their political projects and my book exposes what they are up to. DFN (with two directors from OM) uses the Dalit face to hide that it is a hardcore operational wing of American right-wing agendas in India. The Dalit label gives it the emotional appeal and aura of legitimacy to intervene in India's affairs. DFN brings speakers and activists from India to testify before US government commissions, policy think-tanks and churches,with the explicit goal of promoting US intervention in India (Breaking India, pages 222-223).
d) What most of my American Christian friends are shocked to learn is that the kind of Christianity being propagated in India is often similar to the radical,medieval Christianity that was based on performing "miracles" and on hate speech. Most modern Christians in USA have rejected that Christianity, but the obsession for numerical growth in Christian population has become the evangelical obsession. The sole focus is on numbers, not quality or genuine religiosity.
e) There are also many good indigenous grassroots movements in India working for Dalit causes,which do not get the type of prominence or funding that Western-supported NGOs do. They are sadly underfunded because they lack the sophisticated fund raising and publicity machinery. Yet such indigenous organizations have a far better efficiency in the use of funds for making a positive impact than the foreign ones do.
f) My American Christian friends are grateful to get informed about this, as it enables them to make better choices in philanthropy, and be more careful before they fund certain foreign missions. Since my book is beginning to impact the evangelists' fund-raising in the US, they want Christian media like yours to poison the credibility of my work.
g) But any religious community must be open to external criticism and self-reflection in order to improve its religious standards. Given Christianity's long history of abuses, it would be foolish for American Christians to fail to examine my findings with a receptive mind.
9. Question: Can you explain your thoughts related to difference anxiety?
Response:
a) I coined the term "difference anxiety" to refer to one's anxiety that the other is different in some way—be it gender, sexual orientation, race,ethnicity, age or religion. The alternative is difference without anxiety, and better still is celebration of difference.
b) To appreciate this very Hindu principle, one must start by observing that the cosmos is built on the principle of difference—in plants, animals, geographies,and even each moment in time is unique. So differences in culture, human cognition and worldviews are entirely natural.
c) It is interesting that westerners are so protective of the diversity of plants and animals, but the same emphasis is not placed on protecting civilizational and faith diversity. The reason is that Westerners are driven by the urge to control externally – control over other humans, nature, etc. Homogeneity based on fixed canonized norms helps one control; hence difference and especially flux are a cause for anxiety. Therefore, Western religions have traditionally pushed for monocultures.
d) Western Monotheism is more appropriately described as "my-theism," meaning that my idea of theism is the only valid one.
e) In Hinduism, sva-dharma is the path for a given individual, the "sva"prefix literally meaning "my." It's like "My Documents" or"My Favorites" on your computer. God made us unique individuals, each with a purpose based on past conditioning, including experiences in past births, and each of us is equipped to discover his or her sva-dharma.
f) To prevent repetition of some of the worst organized, large scale atrocities in world history that were committed for the sake of spreading a uniform theology,it is time we respected difference. Please see: http://www.patheos.com/Books/Book-Club/Rajiv-Malhotra-Being-Different/Importance-of-Being-Different-QA-Rajiv-Malhotra-02-20-2012
RMF Summary: Week of December 4 - 10, 2012
December 4 (continuing discussion from November 24)
Life of Pi - lessons for Hindus
Equal-equal Hindus might feel encouraged by the attention paid to that idea in Ang Lee's visually magnificent movie, "The Life Of Pi". A sampling of Christian...
Harsh argues:
"I agree with Mr. Ganesh. Why did PI convert to Christianity? it had nothing to do with the story or plot. Even my "secular" friends felt that PI converting to Christianity made no sense whatsoever. Infact if they could have explained the dharma philosophy nicely in the circumstances shown but it is seen from a Christian POV."
Carpentier responds:
"Actually he does not convert. As a child he wanted to be baptised but it was only a desire and then he went through other religious experiences like Ramakrishna Paramahansa. In the end he is shown having married the Bharata Natyam dancer he had loved as a teenager and having given his children Hindu names. His worldview is distinctly Indic, not "semitic" throughout the movie though it is inclusive, as all truly sadhakas are, in all times and places..."
December 6 (continuing discussion from December 4)\
Hinduism: The ultimate anti-fragile
The above is an interesting and innovative use of BD's thesis. Clearly, the...
Vibhaa responds:
"Blog author posits that in Stage 2 (1857-1947), Hindu society joined hands with Muslim society. This position is arguable as Muslim leadership in India seems to have collaborated with the Christian West against the nativist Dharma. Syed Ahmed Khan, MA Jinnah are some major examples that apparently applied people of the book solidarity against "Non-Believers""
December 6 (continuing discussion from November 22)
Angana Chatterji hosted at Harvard by Michael Witzel
In Breaking India, Rajiv & Aravindan write about some US academics who produce literature with questionable funding that could aid in the disintegration of...
Bhattacharya notes:
"Only one week from the day this thread regarding Angana Chatterji began, a relevant development has taken place. According to recent news reports [http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/specials/gujarat-assembly-elections/US-\
lawmakers-urge-Hillary-Clinton-to-continue-denying-visa-to-Narendra-Modi/article\
show/17473016.cms], in a letter addressed to U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton dated 29 November 2012, twenty-five U.S. lawmakers, including Congressmen Joe Pitts, Dan Burton, Trent Franks, and James Moran (all discussed in message #3835 in this thread) as well as others, have recommended that Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi be denied a visa. In their letter, the lawmakers specifically mention Modi's alleged involvement in the 2002 Gujarat
riots. It is notable that 11 of the 13 U.S. Congressmen named as signatories to the letter in the news article referenced above are members of the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission [http://tlhrc.house.gov/members.asp], the very same
Congressional committee before which Angana Chatterji testified in March of 2012 [http://tlhrc.house.gov/hearing_notice.asp?id=1227 , click on Chatterji's name
and Transcript/Webcast in left margin for documents/testimony], as discussed in message #3835 in this thread. Another signatory to the November 2012 letter,
Congressman Frank Wolf, is co-Chairman of this committee. (A complete list of the twenty-five signatories and the full text of the letter were not found on the web)...."
December 6 (New Thread)
AAR session on Being Different
Shashi adds:
December 7 (New Thread)
December 7 (New Thread)
A martyr in making in south india
Ram posts:
Christian catholic church is slowly initiating attempts to digest the tamilnadu , kerala functions of pongal (makar sankaranti) by attaching it with the supposed martyrdom of Devasahayam pillai. An article on the whole myth of Devayasahayam pillai being killed for his religion
Shanti notes:
"Thank God we Hindus follow the Lunar calendar! Otherwise the Church would have long ago found a 'Christian reason' for each of our other festivals too. The Church is known to have done this across Europe to all pagan festivals:
... In fact there is a widely held theory that the celebration of Christmas on 25th December is not the actual birthdate of Jesus but selected by the Church to coincide with the pagan winter festival."
December 7 (New Thread)
Ravi posts:
Prof. Ashok Aklujkar (Dept of Asian Studies, Univ of British Columbia
This thread provides many links and information that brings us up to date with the latest debate. We plan to summarize this in a separate post.
December 7 (New Thread)
Critics Respond to Hindu Intellectual'
Note: This error-filled article discussed in the next thread has been exposed for its lack of research by Sandeep Balakrishna here.
December 8 (New Thread)
The Case for Indian Islam by Neil Padukone
films2020 posts:
" ... Pragati is the publication of Takshashila Institution, a think-tank based in New..."
Arun responds:
"The Tamizh Alvars predate the arrival of Islam"
Manish notes:
"First thing first, I have been following Pragati for at least 3 years; it aspires to be nationalist but never rises beyond Nehruvian miasma. The quote below bears this out. This is the bane of all ''strategic'' thinking in India.
// The intermingling of Islam and Hinduism in the 12th century produced a profound evolution in Hinduism that remains salient today. //
-- there was no intermingling; Hinduism was mercilessly mauled. To term the rape of Hindustan as ''intermingling'' is the usual Nehruvian teachnique of lying while hiding behind pious platitudes, so as to avoind facing up to ugly realities. "
December 8 (New Thread)
A plea for some help
Vish posts:
I wonder if some forum member, with accesses, could help me find a contact for Prof. (Mrs.) Bhaswati Sinha, who was (maybe still?) with the Department of Religious Studies in Punjabi University, Patiala.
I am coming here after doing my due, and in not getting anywhere.
Prof. Sinha, after a sustained labor of two decades published a very important treatise on Udayana-Acharya's work on the "Hindu Rational Enquiry into the Existence of God". It is a remarkable thesis in that Udayan talks of "Adrsta" (a kind of genetic notion still prevalent in a Hindu's way of life, but which everyone wants to summarily dismiss as non-scientific attaching tags such as 'chance', 'fate', 'bad luck' etc). Udayana-acharya uses some powerful arguments to develop the notion of God as the cause for such an effect.
Prof. Sinha's elaborate work lays a powerful foundation to notions of "Poorva-Paksha" arguing against many of the notions advanced by Mimamsakas, Buddhists, Chaarvakas and the like (many thanks to BD for providing a resurrection of this long forgotten concept of the Dharmic way of acquiring knowledge). She also provides a terrific reference and examples on the powerful logic that was prevalent in India during those ancient ages.
Prof. Sinha did her MA from Calcutta University, and obtained her Ph.D. from Madras under Dr. TMP Mahadevan. In 1976 she was recommended by Mahadevan to join the Punjabi University to forge a research team there, and we believe that in some shape or form she still lends her services to them."
The thread below will be covered in depth in Part-2 of our series on this topic. Part-1 can be found in the June 2012 archive.
December 8 (New Thread)
Why the book American Veda is not called American Hinduism
Dear Friends Phil Goldberg is the author of the recently published American Veda. He explains why the word Hindu is not there. Book reviews can be read from...
December 9
Course on Indian Culture via MOOC
Alekshendra posts:
"Dear Dr. Malhotra,
This is my attempt to try to reach you. I have seen almost all of your lectures available on YouTube and the point made by you about the digestion of Indian Culture/History/Identity by the west.
In this regard, I would like to bring to your attention a new trending way of providing education online.
We have something called MOOCs (massively open online course) ( these links can give a better Idea:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixE1YAlHnVU
2. http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_education.html )
I was a part of one such MOOC offered by Prof. Keith Devlin of Stanford University and the strength of the class was whooping 61 thousand.
I was wondering over the possibility of creation of an Online Course offered on Coursera which focuses on Indian Culture, its content, it's distinctiveness from the west
( https://www.coursera.org/category/humanities) then the knowledge and message can be spread on a much larger scale. "
Rajiv responds:
"I would be delighted. But some others must do all the logistics, funding, tech work, marketing, etc. I can supply the content itself. Many similar ideas have come and gone, because when the workload gets tough our folks' enthusiasm fizzles out. The core team has to be FULL TIME as I am. This means they need funding. It cannot be pursued as a hobby as and when one feels like. There has to be professional accountability just like in one's job"
We end this summary with a very thought-provoking post by Rajiv Malhotra. This post has some profound messages worth reading more than once. We cannot say later that we weren't warned.
December 10
Hindu Dharma is more than just a matter of naming
"1) Many of our people seem confused and think that being Hindu is merely a matter of calling oneself by that name. This approach might be called "definition by naming". So long as someone uses the right name, its ok. I find this shallow and troubling. I know many who call themselves Hindus, but who are in one or more of the following categories of counterproductive persons:
Using Hindu community to boost their own political status or raise self importance to get some appointment, etc. Obsessed with occupying some position of importance for which they are utterly unqualified, thereby denying someone better qualified the chance to serve us better.
Happy to get digested; promoting digestion out of naivete/stupidity; seeing this as a sign of glory: "We have arrived on the world stage".
Confused with ideas of sameness, as substitute for having to study hard to understand what dharma is.
2) So if naming cannot be the criteria for defining who is Hindu, another option many use is history centrism. Hinduism defined as a specific history in a specific geography. I reject this as well. It limits Hinduism's claim of universalism by defining it this history centric way. For one thing, it excludes many segments and movements which have separate histories (e.g. Swaminarayanan) and/or do not consider any unique history to be the basis at all (e.g. Kashmir Shaivism, Tantra, Yoga). This approach has been used for political expediency - turning Hinduism into a Semitic religion of sorts. It becomes a claim that downgrades us...
3) Definition by distinct principles and practices. This the approach BD follows. Here, I found it important to combine both positive and negative principles. Examples of positive principles are karma-reincarnation and non-translatables that are specific and shared by the diversity of dharma approaches. Negative principles are what we reject. These negative principles are is critical to formulate carefully so as to have non-digestible differences. Examples of negative principles: I reject the claim that God's manifestation on earth has been limited via one son and no other way...
4) So the combination of positive-negative principles define us.
The positive ones root and ground us, in a manner that all (or almost all) dharma groups can accept; hence we get a unified platform.
The negative ones prevent us from getting digested into some other religion that is lurking around sending its "good cops" to entice and us and fool us. ..
5) The cunning tiger would like to separate the quills of the porcupine from the meat, reject the former and digest the latter. If the porcupine is foolish and accept the tiger's offer and drops his quills, he will surely get eaten and digested. The smart porcupine must NEVER SEPARATE THE QUILLS FROM THE REST OF HIS BODY. The positive-negative principles come as one package, never to get separated.
6) Swami Vivekananda's greatness is because he followed the above method #3. I have been reading through his collected works now for a second time lately, because I realized that the AAR panelists' attack on BD was based on those scholars' lifelong attacks of Swami Vivekananda. The central problem these scholars face is any claim of unity of Hinduism. They know how to deal with #1 and #2 approaches. #1 is simply trivial and easy to appease such fools by simply using the Hindu name. #2 has been attacked as Hindutva and hence they have lots of weaponry and soldiers trained to start firing. But #3 is very tough for them. This is why they have worked since 1950 to undermine Swami Vivekananda as a champion of unity using #3 approach. Digestion is one of their most aggressive and successful methods because Hindus get fooled into thinking the tiger is paying them a compliment.
7) I have a list of top tier scholars who have made their careers attacking Swami Vivekananda and now I am writing a response to their attacks on BD. Their attacks on BD use the same approach as their attacks on Swami Vivekananda. Basically, anything philosophical (not political) that unifies dharma, is seen as dangerous. Why? Because such a foundation for unity is very robust as a foundation for nation-building. To destroy India they must destroy every viable method of its unity. Modern economic growth is insufficient to hold a massive diverse country together when it faces crises and catastrophes. Only a shared set of dharmic principles can hold it together. Hence, this academic cabal has targeted Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Gandhi, B.G. Tilak, Radhakrishnan, etc. - calling them "Neo-Hindus" to imply that they lack authenticity...
8) I welcome sincere and COMPETENT help in this latest project of mine.I am working on it non stop 7 days/wk amidst some personal challenges..."
Life of Pi - lessons for Hindus
Equal-equal Hindus might feel encouraged by the attention paid to that idea in Ang Lee's visually magnificent movie, "The Life Of Pi". A sampling of Christian...
Harsh argues:
"I agree with Mr. Ganesh. Why did PI convert to Christianity? it had nothing to do with the story or plot. Even my "secular" friends felt that PI converting to Christianity made no sense whatsoever. Infact if they could have explained the dharma philosophy nicely in the circumstances shown but it is seen from a Christian POV."
Carpentier responds:
"Actually he does not convert. As a child he wanted to be baptised but it was only a desire and then he went through other religious experiences like Ramakrishna Paramahansa. In the end he is shown having married the Bharata Natyam dancer he had loved as a teenager and having given his children Hindu names. His worldview is distinctly Indic, not "semitic" throughout the movie though it is inclusive, as all truly sadhakas are, in all times and places..."
December 6 (continuing discussion from December 4)\
Hinduism: The ultimate anti-fragile
The above is an interesting and innovative use of BD's thesis. Clearly, the...
Vibhaa responds:
"Blog author posits that in Stage 2 (1857-1947), Hindu society joined hands with Muslim society. This position is arguable as Muslim leadership in India seems to have collaborated with the Christian West against the nativist Dharma. Syed Ahmed Khan, MA Jinnah are some major examples that apparently applied people of the book solidarity against "Non-Believers""
December 6 (continuing discussion from November 22)
Angana Chatterji hosted at Harvard by Michael Witzel
In Breaking India, Rajiv & Aravindan write about some US academics who produce literature with questionable funding that could aid in the disintegration of...
Bhattacharya notes:
"Only one week from the day this thread regarding Angana Chatterji began, a relevant development has taken place. According to recent news reports [http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/specials/gujarat-assembly-elections/US-\
lawmakers-urge-Hillary-Clinton-to-continue-denying-visa-to-Narendra-Modi/article\
show/17473016.cms], in a letter addressed to U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton dated 29 November 2012, twenty-five U.S. lawmakers, including Congressmen Joe Pitts, Dan Burton, Trent Franks, and James Moran (all discussed in message #3835 in this thread) as well as others, have recommended that Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi be denied a visa. In their letter, the lawmakers specifically mention Modi's alleged involvement in the 2002 Gujarat
riots. It is notable that 11 of the 13 U.S. Congressmen named as signatories to the letter in the news article referenced above are members of the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission [http://tlhrc.house.gov/members.asp], the very same
Congressional committee before which Angana Chatterji testified in March of 2012 [http://tlhrc.house.gov/hearing_notice.asp?id=1227 , click on Chatterji's name
and Transcript/Webcast in left margin for documents/testimony], as discussed in message #3835 in this thread. Another signatory to the November 2012 letter,
Congressman Frank Wolf, is co-Chairman of this committee. (A complete list of the twenty-five signatories and the full text of the letter were not found on the web)...."
December 6 (New Thread)
AAR session on Being Different
Rohit posts:
"Comments of Sri Koenraad Elst on the AAR session on Being Different: The debate about Rajiv Malhotra's book Being Different was
very instructive. At the end, Malhotra ably put his critics in their
place, but first they had their say. I was appalled by the bad manners
of Brian Pennington against the invited responder, Rajiv Malhotra: he
wondered aloud, after a long diatribe which I guess was his privilege,
why the AAR and organizer Francis Clooney s.j. had cared to pay any
attention to Malhotra at all, let alone invite him. It was typical for
these academics: they fight by exclusion, they shamelessly exploit the
fact that they are in and Rajiv is out, eventhough his book will prove
more influential (and far more factual) than anything they will ever
produce, or than the wrongly famous Orientalism by Edward Said..."
Rajeev responds:
"Rajiv comment: I very much appreciated Koenraad's participation from the audience. He pointed out that those like Pennigton who accused me of "essentializing" Hinduism were themselves essentializing the notion of "minorities". The panel failed to offer any response.
I agree that Edelman (like Rambachan) completely lacked creativity, originality or any imagination to look beyond the box of "standard works" on Hinduism by one "side" or another.
Regarding history-centrism: someone from the audience asked Edelman how the historicity of Krishna according to Vaishnavs resembled and how it differed from that of Jesus. He ought to have taken this opportunity to give some thoughtful remarks. But he look dumbfounded and muttered something like "I have not thought about this." Amazing that the man who was the Vaishnav expert on the panel had never bothered to think of this rather obvious question.
In my response to Edelman, I pointed out that his credentials as Vaishnav scholar (which he went on emphasizing) were based on his years of study at the feet of his guru Dr. Satya Narayan Das, who is arguably today's foremost prominent exponent of Sri Jiva Goswami's Achinta-bheda-abheda. (I happen to know this fact about Edelman's learning of Vaishnavism from Dr. Das.) Then I pointed out much to his embarrassment that: Dr. Das is a dear friend and supporter of my work; that he had read the entire manuscript of BD a year it got published and made numerous comments and suggested changes, that i had used his interpretation of Vedanta in Appendix A and not relied entirely upon Shankara; and that he had written a most wonderful endorsement of this book. This completely slid the rug from under the feet of this scholar.
I have finished reading Rambachan's PhD dissertation written in 1984 where his ideas come out clearly against Swami Vivekananda and others he thinks of as the culprit starting what he calls "Neo-Hinduism". I have also finished reading very thoroughly the complete writings of Hacker (a Christian missionary) on this matter along with related works by others. So I will first write a full purva paksha of this school of anti-Vivekananda...
Of course Penington's crass and very unscholarly conduct is most reprehensible and deserves to be address as such. There was no scholarly content in his paper that was relevant to BD - mostly generic attacks on the type of scholarship he presumes Hindus to produce. I doubt he read BD more than skimming through it and looking for things quickly to get his bearings.
Below is Dr. Das' endorsement of BD:
Reviewer: Dr. Satya Narayan Das, Founder of Jiva Institute of Vedic Studies, Vrindavan
Many Indian spiritual leaders, lacking a profound knowledge of their own culture, and feeling inferior to the West, try to respond to the Western challenge by showing how Indian and western religions are the same. They chant "sarva-dharma-sama-bhava" (all religions are equal) out of context, causing much confusion. In the midst of this morass arises the ”lotus of Rajiv” (the word rajiv means a lotus in Sanskrit) in the form of his book, Being Different. Rajiv Malhotra's work is a kind of yajna that reverses the gaze upon the West through the lens of Indian knowledge systems. This process is traditionally called purva paksha, and in Rajiv’s work it is given a new mission and a new importance....
I agree that Edelman (like Rambachan) completely lacked creativity, originality or any imagination to look beyond the box of "standard works" on Hinduism by one "side" or another.
Regarding history-centrism: someone from the audience asked Edelman how the historicity of Krishna according to Vaishnavs resembled and how it differed from that of Jesus. He ought to have taken this opportunity to give some thoughtful remarks. But he look dumbfounded and muttered something like "I have not thought about this." Amazing that the man who was the Vaishnav expert on the panel had never bothered to think of this rather obvious question.
In my response to Edelman, I pointed out that his credentials as Vaishnav scholar (which he went on emphasizing) were based on his years of study at the feet of his guru Dr. Satya Narayan Das, who is arguably today's foremost prominent exponent of Sri Jiva Goswami's Achinta-bheda-abheda. (I happen to know this fact about Edelman's learning of Vaishnavism from Dr. Das.) Then I pointed out much to his embarrassment that: Dr. Das is a dear friend and supporter of my work; that he had read the entire manuscript of BD a year it got published and made numerous comments and suggested changes, that i had used his interpretation of Vedanta in Appendix A and not relied entirely upon Shankara; and that he had written a most wonderful endorsement of this book. This completely slid the rug from under the feet of this scholar.
I have finished reading Rambachan's PhD dissertation written in 1984 where his ideas come out clearly against Swami Vivekananda and others he thinks of as the culprit starting what he calls "Neo-Hinduism". I have also finished reading very thoroughly the complete writings of Hacker (a Christian missionary) on this matter along with related works by others. So I will first write a full purva paksha of this school of anti-Vivekananda...
Of course Penington's crass and very unscholarly conduct is most reprehensible and deserves to be address as such. There was no scholarly content in his paper that was relevant to BD - mostly generic attacks on the type of scholarship he presumes Hindus to produce. I doubt he read BD more than skimming through it and looking for things quickly to get his bearings.
Below is Dr. Das' endorsement of BD:
Reviewer: Dr. Satya Narayan Das, Founder of Jiva Institute of Vedic Studies, Vrindavan
Many Indian spiritual leaders, lacking a profound knowledge of their own culture, and feeling inferior to the West, try to respond to the Western challenge by showing how Indian and western religions are the same. They chant "sarva-dharma-sama-bhava" (all religions are equal) out of context, causing much confusion. In the midst of this morass arises the ”lotus of Rajiv” (the word rajiv means a lotus in Sanskrit) in the form of his book, Being Different. Rajiv Malhotra's work is a kind of yajna that reverses the gaze upon the West through the lens of Indian knowledge systems. This process is traditionally called purva paksha, and in Rajiv’s work it is given a new mission and a new importance....
... The dharmic traditions have been a target for digestion into the belly of Western culture. Being Different challenges the legitimacy of such attempts with profound logic and examples. Its analysis of Abrahamic religions shows how they are history-centric. This fixation drives them into claims of exclusiveness and gives them anxiety over cultural differences which they seek to resolve through appropriation, assimilation, conversion - all forms of digestion that obliterate whatever seems challenging....
... Being Different breaks new ground in that direction. The result is a highly original and sincere attempt to compare the basic paradigms of Indian and Western thought. This book will open the eyes of any fair-minded reader regardless of worldview. "
Shashi adds:
"In his book Decolonizing the Hindu Mind,
Elst strenuously points out that there is a dearth for good material on
Hinduism that takes a position. In that context Elst was dealing with
the issues
in political arena. Better yet, this precisely what Rajiv has been doing
in the academic arena (and other non-political forums), which as Rajiv
has pointed out in past, will have the greatest impact.
This is an old trick: they only indulge in
monologs. If they had ever entered into a constructive Indian style
purva and uttar paksha based debate with Indian pundits, among other
things – AIT would never be born and we would not have to
clean their mess..."
In
http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2012/12/impressions-from-aar-conference.html,
Elst says “It was typical for these academics: they fight by exclusion, they shamelessly
exploit the fact that they are in and Rajiv is out …”.
December 7 (New Thread)
Appropriating Music -- Takadimi.net?
I ran into this website in course of my research on rhythms -- http://www.takadimi
I ran into this website in course of my research on rhythms -- http://www.takadimi
December 7 (New Thread)
A martyr in making in south india
Ram posts:
Christian catholic church is slowly initiating attempts to digest the tamilnadu , kerala functions of pongal (makar sankaranti) by attaching it with the supposed martyrdom of Devasahayam pillai. An article on the whole myth of Devayasahayam pillai being killed for his religion
Shanti notes:
"Thank God we Hindus follow the Lunar calendar! Otherwise the Church would have long ago found a 'Christian reason' for each of our other festivals too. The Church is known to have done this across Europe to all pagan festivals:
... In fact there is a widely held theory that the celebration of Christmas on 25th December is not the actual birthdate of Jesus but selected by the Church to coincide with the pagan winter festival."
December 7 (New Thread)
Ravi posts:
Prof. Ashok Aklujkar (Dept of Asian Studies, Univ of British Columbia
This thread provides many links and information that brings us up to date with the latest debate. We plan to summarize this in a separate post.
Critics Respond to Hindu Intellectual'
Note: This error-filled article discussed in the next thread has been exposed for its lack of research by Sandeep Balakrishna here.
December 8 (New Thread)
The Case for Indian Islam by Neil Padukone
films2020 posts:
" ... Pragati is the publication of Takshashila Institution, a think-tank based in New..."
"The Tamizh Alvars predate the arrival of Islam"
Manish notes:
"First thing first, I have been following Pragati for at least 3 years; it aspires to be nationalist but never rises beyond Nehruvian miasma. The quote below bears this out. This is the bane of all ''strategic'' thinking in India.
// The intermingling of Islam and Hinduism in the 12th century produced a profound evolution in Hinduism that remains salient today. //
-- there was no intermingling; Hinduism was mercilessly mauled. To term the rape of Hindustan as ''intermingling'' is the usual Nehruvian teachnique of lying while hiding behind pious platitudes, so as to avoind facing up to ugly realities. "
December 8 (New Thread)
A plea for some help
Vish posts:
I wonder if some forum member, with accesses, could help me find a contact for Prof. (Mrs.) Bhaswati Sinha, who was (maybe still?) with the Department of Religious Studies in Punjabi University, Patiala.
I am coming here after doing my due, and in not getting anywhere.
Prof. Sinha, after a sustained labor of two decades published a very important treatise on Udayana-Acharya's work on the "Hindu Rational Enquiry into the Existence of God". It is a remarkable thesis in that Udayan talks of "Adrsta" (a kind of genetic notion still prevalent in a Hindu's way of life, but which everyone wants to summarily dismiss as non-scientific attaching tags such as 'chance', 'fate', 'bad luck' etc). Udayana-acharya uses some powerful arguments to develop the notion of God as the cause for such an effect.
Prof. Sinha's elaborate work lays a powerful foundation to notions of "Poorva-Paksha" arguing against many of the notions advanced by Mimamsakas, Buddhists, Chaarvakas and the like (many thanks to BD for providing a resurrection of this long forgotten concept of the Dharmic way of acquiring knowledge). She also provides a terrific reference and examples on the powerful logic that was prevalent in India during those ancient ages.
Prof. Sinha did her MA from Calcutta University, and obtained her Ph.D. from Madras under Dr. TMP Mahadevan. In 1976 she was recommended by Mahadevan to join the Punjabi University to forge a research team there, and we believe that in some shape or form she still lends her services to them."
The thread below will be covered in depth in Part-2 of our series on this topic. Part-1 can be found in the June 2012 archive.
December 8 (New Thread)
Why the book American Veda is not called American Hinduism
Dear Friends Phil Goldberg is the author of the recently published American Veda. He explains why the word Hindu is not there. Book reviews can be read from...
December 9
Course on Indian Culture via MOOC
Alekshendra posts:
"Dear Dr. Malhotra,
This is my attempt to try to reach you. I have seen almost all of your lectures available on YouTube and the point made by you about the digestion of Indian Culture/History/Identity by the west.
In this regard, I would like to bring to your attention a new trending way of providing education online.
We have something called MOOCs (massively open online course) ( these links can give a better Idea:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixE1YAlHnVU
2. http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_education.html )
I was a part of one such MOOC offered by Prof. Keith Devlin of Stanford University and the strength of the class was whooping 61 thousand.
I was wondering over the possibility of creation of an Online Course offered on Coursera which focuses on Indian Culture, its content, it's distinctiveness from the west
( https://www.coursera.org/category/humanities) then the knowledge and message can be spread on a much larger scale. "
Rajiv responds:
"I would be delighted. But some others must do all the logistics, funding, tech work, marketing, etc. I can supply the content itself. Many similar ideas have come and gone, because when the workload gets tough our folks' enthusiasm fizzles out. The core team has to be FULL TIME as I am. This means they need funding. It cannot be pursued as a hobby as and when one feels like. There has to be professional accountability just like in one's job"
We end this summary with a very thought-provoking post by Rajiv Malhotra. This post has some profound messages worth reading more than once. We cannot say later that we weren't warned.
December 10
Hindu Dharma is more than just a matter of naming
"1) Many of our people seem confused and think that being Hindu is merely a matter of calling oneself by that name. This approach might be called "definition by naming". So long as someone uses the right name, its ok. I find this shallow and troubling. I know many who call themselves Hindus, but who are in one or more of the following categories of counterproductive persons:
Using Hindu community to boost their own political status or raise self importance to get some appointment, etc. Obsessed with occupying some position of importance for which they are utterly unqualified, thereby denying someone better qualified the chance to serve us better.
Happy to get digested; promoting digestion out of naivete/stupidity; seeing this as a sign of glory: "We have arrived on the world stage".
Confused with ideas of sameness, as substitute for having to study hard to understand what dharma is.
2) So if naming cannot be the criteria for defining who is Hindu, another option many use is history centrism. Hinduism defined as a specific history in a specific geography. I reject this as well. It limits Hinduism's claim of universalism by defining it this history centric way. For one thing, it excludes many segments and movements which have separate histories (e.g. Swaminarayanan) and/or do not consider any unique history to be the basis at all (e.g. Kashmir Shaivism, Tantra, Yoga). This approach has been used for political expediency - turning Hinduism into a Semitic religion of sorts. It becomes a claim that downgrades us...
3) Definition by distinct principles and practices. This the approach BD follows. Here, I found it important to combine both positive and negative principles. Examples of positive principles are karma-reincarnation and non-translatables that are specific and shared by the diversity of dharma approaches. Negative principles are what we reject. These negative principles are is critical to formulate carefully so as to have non-digestible differences. Examples of negative principles: I reject the claim that God's manifestation on earth has been limited via one son and no other way...
4) So the combination of positive-negative principles define us.
The positive ones root and ground us, in a manner that all (or almost all) dharma groups can accept; hence we get a unified platform.
The negative ones prevent us from getting digested into some other religion that is lurking around sending its "good cops" to entice and us and fool us. ..
5) The cunning tiger would like to separate the quills of the porcupine from the meat, reject the former and digest the latter. If the porcupine is foolish and accept the tiger's offer and drops his quills, he will surely get eaten and digested. The smart porcupine must NEVER SEPARATE THE QUILLS FROM THE REST OF HIS BODY. The positive-negative principles come as one package, never to get separated.
6) Swami Vivekananda's greatness is because he followed the above method #3. I have been reading through his collected works now for a second time lately, because I realized that the AAR panelists' attack on BD was based on those scholars' lifelong attacks of Swami Vivekananda. The central problem these scholars face is any claim of unity of Hinduism. They know how to deal with #1 and #2 approaches. #1 is simply trivial and easy to appease such fools by simply using the Hindu name. #2 has been attacked as Hindutva and hence they have lots of weaponry and soldiers trained to start firing. But #3 is very tough for them. This is why they have worked since 1950 to undermine Swami Vivekananda as a champion of unity using #3 approach. Digestion is one of their most aggressive and successful methods because Hindus get fooled into thinking the tiger is paying them a compliment.
7) I have a list of top tier scholars who have made their careers attacking Swami Vivekananda and now I am writing a response to their attacks on BD. Their attacks on BD use the same approach as their attacks on Swami Vivekananda. Basically, anything philosophical (not political) that unifies dharma, is seen as dangerous. Why? Because such a foundation for unity is very robust as a foundation for nation-building. To destroy India they must destroy every viable method of its unity. Modern economic growth is insufficient to hold a massive diverse country together when it faces crises and catastrophes. Only a shared set of dharmic principles can hold it together. Hence, this academic cabal has targeted Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Gandhi, B.G. Tilak, Radhakrishnan, etc. - calling them "Neo-Hindus" to imply that they lack authenticity...
8) I welcome sincere and COMPETENT help in this latest project of mine.I am working on it non stop 7 days/wk amidst some personal challenges..."
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