Why are Hindus Celebrating the Digestion of Hinduism? - Part 2

This is the latest in our series of blogs dealing with the problem of digestion of Hinduism, which is quite different from both inclusivism and conversion to Abrahamic faiths. For example, in Kerala, the digestion of many aspects of Hinduism in general, and the festival of Onam, in particular have been covered in the last few days. This post is part of the discussion on Phil Goldberg's 'American Veda' has been shown to be an example of this problem. You can find Part-1 of the current discussion here. However, many Hindus live in denial for a variety of reasons. You can find the first set of posts in 2012 on Goldberg's American Veda: Analysis-2 that summarizes the first set of feedback on AV is here, and Analysis-1, is the very first summary, where AV was introduced to the forum, and shows Goldberg's attempted defence of his work.

There are several other dicussions of 'digestion' in the forum that can be accessed by clicking the keyword. Another external blog that was among the very first to comment on AV is the 'Digesting Veda blog'. 

For those who want to get the full details on digestion of Hinduism, the links (total of 9 posts) provided above can be traversed in the following order:
1. Familiarize yourself with digestion activities in Kerala
2. Understand how digestion differs from both inclusivism and conversion  
3. American Veda: start with the DigestingVeda blog 
4. Then read Analysis-1 and Analysis-2
5. Read Part-1 and Part-2 of the current discussion on how American Veda is being supported by Hindu intellectuals (this one and the previous one)
6. Examine other discussions of digestion in the forum. 
7. Don't stop there! Blog, discuss and educate others about this serious problem.


In Part-2 of our current discussion below, we examine the foreword and contents of Phil Goldberg's book 'American Veda' shared in this blog, and then see how Hindu intellectuals respond to it.

Inside the 'American Veda' - celebration of uturners
Subra shares: "...  Just the first 25 pages. We can see the shoddy scholarship, the Sanskrit mistranslations being used to set the stage for digestion, the reductionism, and the justification for digestion. Once this is done, the remaining chapters celebrates one u-turner after another..."

Rajiv responds:
"Thanks for a good analysis. People who are in doubt should read the analysis:

It is sad how many so-called supporters of our cause failed to understand digestion at work, and went around proudly promoting the author. One such man called me... to say: "What if we get him to state he is against the Aryan theory and against missionaries"? I told this man he does not understand digestion. It is not about being against missionaries, being against Aryan theory, and so forth.

If a thief is taking your assets and digesting them by characterizing them as belonging to others, does it help you because he praises your home, expresses anger at some of your opponents, etc and other unrelated things.

THE DIGESTER LOVES WHAT HE IS DIGESTING OTHERWISE HE WONT DIGEST IT. Why am I unable to get this across???

These people among us are so STUPID and ignorant of our own history where we have seen so many westerners support us, praise us, etc precisely to dupe such IDIOTS. By now we ought to have no more fools but sadly we do.

I am confident I can get a statement from Witzel opposing missionaries. In fact he told me as such in person many years ago. But is that the issue???

Can Hinduism be rescued by a bandwagon of fools, who are easily swayed, lazy to read and understand issues, and in awe of someone supporting them with glamor.

I hope people who have promoted his works will now do penance by promoting the link above with greater enthusiasm."
 
Aditya has a useful suggestion:
"... Does anyone want in this group want to write an "alternative" review for AV on Amazon with a mention of "Being Different" as a book to read?

...  for someone who has [read the book], this would be one small step in the right direction."

css shares feedback from another person who disagreed that 'American Veda is digestion'. Please read the details in the forum. We only provide a gist of the arguments here:
1. He acknowledges the impact of Indian spirituality on America
2. He is not working on behalf of missionaries
3. He is not a practitioner in the Ken Wilber mould
4. Sloppy scholarship does not prove digestion

Rajiv comment: The above looks at DIRECT digestion only. Does not understand the subtlety and multi layered processes at work. This simplistic view is quiet common and hence I know my work is cut out for me.

PhilG valorizes digesters - he himself does not have to be one. Every digester has a coterie of cheerleaders supporting him, building is brand value, legitimizing him. These cheerleaders might not be smart enough to do the heavy thinking like a digester. They are his support team. PhilG is such a cheerleader. Wilber and Keating are examples of top tier digesters that PhilG celebrates. Good analogies are:

- most sepoys merely suck up to another thinker and hence build brand credibility for a major thinker and are not capable of doing this thinking themselves.

- People in Indian media are supporting X but not doing the nasty things personally that X does. Yet we oppose such media persons. They are part of the entourage of X that makes X important.

The problem .... is that he has not read Keating or Wilber, for example...What he sees is PhilG praising these folks in ways that seem reasonable. This is why incomplete knowledge is dangerous... I have separate volumes in the pipeline on each of these men, along with many others.

The history of PhilG work with me... (Read the original and complete information in the forum).

...
5) When the book came out I was shocked. He took all my info on the uturners and made them look like heroes. This inverts my thesis. He celebrates the process that I consider a problem...

6) ...PG's book has a couple of pages on me. I am depicted as someone who complains about uturns. He is dismissive of my complaint. He includes me to be able to say "I have already factored what Malhotra has to say". This is a tactic to dispose of a serious issue without properly dealing with it.

....point on PG criticizing missionaries is simply irrelevant. It further shows shallowness of understanding this theater. ...Witzel also opposes proselytizers, and so do most western scholars we fight - Doniger, et al. By the standards of sophisticated western scholars, proselytizing is crude, old fashion, meant for extreme right wing christianity. These folks are liberal left wing and hence anti-proselytizing.

....As I said before: People who digest from the liberal left wing side are not proselytizers or in support of them. For instance, Wilber is too sophisticated to operate at the evangelism level. Nor are any of the neuro-scientists and cognitive scientists appropriating Hindu and Buddhist ideas and practices. ... understand the complexity of liberal/leftist ideas of dharma and not try to collapse all western approaches as proselytizing. (For one thing Jews are not christians or proselytizers and yet many of them are digesters!)

It is sad that while I must invest years of rigor to get one book at a time out, there are "supporters" who cant wait. .... On limited knowledge they align themselves with the very same digesters I spend all my time investigating."

 

What are the differences between Digestion and Conversion?

This is another very important post in the series on 'digestion. Here we examine the difference between the differences between digesting Hinduism versus converting Hindus to some Abrahamic religion.
 
November 2013
None in US will support Missionaries' conversions in India
Raghav started this thread by sharing a link and commenting:
The following was posted on an another e-group (Hindu Civilization). The good cop's assurance is what I see here. Mr. Goldberg might have overlooked Rajiv Ji's 'Breaking India'

'None in US will support Missionaries' conversion activities in India', says Philip Goldberg, author of American Veda

Rajiv comment: Jews are active digesters though they dont convert. Most Christian digesters are liberal, left wingers who hate missionaries. They reject Christianity and the digestion is into WESTERN SECULARISM/SCIENCE. Will I see the day when our folks do not think of every problematic person as christian missionary? On the one hand our folks are seriously troubled by the LEFT and yet they confuse them all as missionaries. If YOU read BI (forget whether Goldberg read it; did YOU read it?) you ought to notice the clear emphasis that leftwing and rightwing threats are DIFFERENT. If so, why is it a big deal for a leftwing to certify that he hates missionaries???

...All that someone has to do to get certified by morons is to decry missionaries.

To make it simple again: If you want to eat and digest food you do not reject it, do you? You LOVE it. Thats digestor mindset = love for Hinduism as food to be digested.

On the contrary, if you are a missionary you propagate REJECTING it. Can you please see these are OPPOSITES and yet each is harming us?

Another attempt: Missionary teaches repulsion for it. Digestor teaches love for it as food. The Christian Yoga promoters LOVE yoga, not hate it."

Neeraj asks:

"... when the digester is assimilating [Yoga], he is branding it as Christian Yoga and not something neutral like holistic yoga or secular yoga. If the digester is leftist, then his/her hatred for christianity would push him to do so. Wouldn't it?

Rajiv comment: The digester will repackage it (i.e. digest) into whatever western framework he subscribes to. This means there are as many varieties of digestion as there are varieties of predators..Specifically, the following is a partial list of western digesters:

1) Christians who will turn it into a part of christianity.

2) Hard material scientists turn it into secular science.

3) Post-modernists will show that it is generic and same in every culture.

4) Indians into Dalitstan/Dravidstan will show that whatever is good about it belonged to pre-Aryan people who are now the dalits/dravidians. Whatever is wrong with it was a contamination by later aryans turned into brahmins.

5) Islamic scholars will show it was always part of islam.

I am aghast at the trivial/superficial capacity of our so-called thought leaders. They have still not understood the following:

- the difference between hinduism haters and hinduism digesters (and some who combine both).

- the difference between several kinds of digesters, as illustrated above.

- the public postures of good cop and bad cop, which can hide the private agendas of hater or digester. I got calls and private emails from Hindus claiming victory that a digester touring India was speaking against missionaries, hence he is good for us!!!  

What a bunch of murukha (idiots).

"

Harish summarizes: "...digestion means "loving" and conversion means "rejecting". I really appreciate Rajiv ji's clarity of thought."

Rajiv comment: "Digesting is deadly love. I love you in such a way that you turn into my property and lose your self existence. When I see a delicious dish I appreciate it and praise it. A stupid deer would go around saying "he loves me and invited me to his dinner table". What makes digestion far more dangerous is that it occurs over a long time. The digestion tract takes time to suck out the nutrients and expel what's waste. So fools being digested go around dancing with glee that the predator is being so nice to them."

Srinath makes an interesting observation:

"Aren't both digestion and conversion observed in varying degrees across the WU power spectrum...  Missionaries reject, convert, and subjugate for the most part but also engage in stealth digestion.  Examples from pagan Europe abound. The Scientists on the other hand while being "uber" predators - also negate other sources of intelligence, suppress independence with groupism, etc.  For sure digestion is the killer app because it can be resorted to with subterfuge when heavy handedness isn't yielding the highest return.  I see this mix of digest/convert between let's say, Akbar and Aurangzeb.  Neither of them were 100% in one area but even within their lifetimes the pendulum swung slightly this way or that depending on the political landscape."

Rajiv comment: "Yes. This is how I have explained these. Its about time our members got beyond the basics and started going further. We cannot afford to come back to ground zero every few weeks and repeat the same basics."

 

 

RMF Summary: Week of January 23 - 29, 2012

January 26
Invading the Sacred
Ganesh shares: Outlook India had published this article on "Invading the Sacred" in their Jun29, 2007 edition.
This is an article by Sri Rajiv Malhotra titled "Was the US Senate Attack on Hinduism an isolated Instance?"

January 26

What would a 'modern person' look like after 'Dharmic Universalism' JCP shares:

"...You have skillfully positioned "Dharm" to represent Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism & Sikhism, the latter three of which have already acquired the status of "minorities" in the Indian polity, if not in the Indian Constitution, which has no reference to the term "minority". That leaves only Hinduism in the word "Dharm" for all practical political & social purposes. The rubric of "dharmic traditions" now seems to be more appropriate & sufficiently nebulous for the purpose of including all the above four paths emerging out of Hinduism as well as to take away the pointing arrow from Hinduism, for the purposes of debates in inter-faith dialogues. Your concluding remark that Gandhi's example is the only hope for a meaningful turn around in the global context, is most apt & projects a ray of hope for the future. This is however, easier said than done. The strategy of how Gandhi's example can be followed as a way for a worldwide spiritual, intellectual & social movement, perhaps needs to be worked upon. With your vision, you could help in shaping the outlines of such a movement, drawing upon right-minded people from all over the world.

Our mission is "Dharmic Universalism" is what you had averred in one of your mails. I have just put some thoughts together to picture what an individual would be doing in such a world as follows:-

(i) Each person would intellectually believe in "being different", according to ones own world view of choice, inclining towards one of these - Western or Chinese or Islamic or Dharmic Universalism.

(ii) Emotionally, each person would be devoted to ones own passions &compassion, within ethically & socially acceptable restraints in conformity with ones own world view.

(iii) Action-wise, each person would work for ones own (& perhaps, ones family's) physical, mental & spiritual capacity development to full potential, in conformity with ones own world view, to enable creative thinking, giving rise to sustainable action leading to sustainable regenerative development.

(iv) At the foot-slogging level, each person would choose a path believing in "being different" according to ones own inclinations, capacities & capabilities & respecting the path chosen by every other person."

Nalini responds:
"... i would still hesitate to club the practised faiths all together, for their substance and essence in an organized frame soon degenerate into a fossilized mass that does not evolve along with human thought and experience. Can I continue to belong to an evolving Humanism unfettered by the prescriptions of any one dictum or dogma. At least I can continue to be my own kind of a Hindu, while you can be yours. i would still cherish my childish experience of Jesus the savior, in my catholic schooling, as i cherish the love trust and comraderie of the Sunni family in the border lands of Iran. The Babaji
of my Sikh Grand Mother, and the Arya Samajic traditions of my parental home. Not to forget the aggressive Atheism of my Husband and the gentle persuasion ....

Western Universalism reigned for a while linked as it was to Greek thought and supported by a positivist methodology. Eastern experience has been intuitive and inner directed, whereas the western was sensory, empirical and outward. The
Dualism plays itself out to coalesce into one unity, in every sphere. Let us patiently wait for that to happen."

Rajiv comment: I see JCP performing an important role in the churning process (the motif on the cover of BD of the churning of the ocean of creativity). Nalini appreciates her own churning sparked by the churning of many persons she names above. By the same token, I dont think we need to be afraid to churn further ourselves. We are endowed with the capacity to do so, unlike in history centric systems where only history can give us access to the truth.

While at the surface level, all the above named systems are ok to practice simultaneously within oneself, upon further churning by her, my prediction is that Nalini will appreciate that there are indeed contradictions amongst them, and that its better at some stage to deal with these. That is the stage at which the process starts where BD begins - appreciating the need to understand differences rather than avoiding them in the name of harmony."

Hitanshu suggests:
"The only solution I see in order to prevent digestion is to inculcate in Hinduism a conversion right. That is to say if some westerner wants to perform yoga then the yoga teacher asks them to denounce christ as a false god just the
missionaries do when the convert tribal hindus. This could be done by making the christian break christ statue or step on pictures of christ. But then, we wont be much different from them, right. On the other hand we should not forget that only poison can cure poison."

Rajiv comment: I disagree. This crude approach will backfire with the majority and will appeal only to an extreme on the margins. It will cause people to reject dharma and put it in the same image as Islam in many circles.

Instead, I propose the following steps:

1) Teach in yoga class the Yoga Sutra of Patanjali (and then Kapil's Samkhya foundation for advanced students), in which karma is emphasized. And karma is solidly linked with reincarnation.

2) Once karma-reincarnation are established as inseparable from yoga, the next step is to use chapter 2 of BD to contrast history centrism with adhyatma vidya.

3) Once history centrism is rejected, Nicene Creed gets thrown out the window.

I believe that many if not most Judeo-Christians who go to yoga (if taught properly) would be willing to come this far, which is quite a lot. I have tested it on many westerners in yoga over the years and even funded the teaching of Patanjali at such classes.

Its our gurus who gave it away without even trying this approach. Once the Nicene Creed and Jesus's historicity and exclusivity are removed (explained as blockages to advancement in yoga) THEN the student will undergo a cognitive shift with respect to Judeo-Christian affiliation."

January 28

Dharmic traditions: Vietnamese celebrate New Year at Hindu temple Venkat shares:  Vietnamese celebrate New Year at Hindu temple Saibal Dasgupta, TNN | Jan 24, 2012, 02.49PM IST BEIJING: A flood of Vietnamese are flooding a Hindu temple in Ho Chi Minh City during the 7-day Tet festival that began last Friday, according to Indian residents of the city and local Vietnamese. More than 50,000 people, almost all Buddhists, prayed at the Mariammam Temple through the day and the entire night during the Vietnamese New Year on Sunday. The flow continued through Tuesday with several thousand local people visiting each day. "The local Vietnamese believe that worshiping at this temple during the New Year festival will bring good luck," Atul Kumar, a businessmen who has been in HCMC since the 1980s told TNN. A visitor from India reported that people were observing both Hindu and Buddhist rituals to please the gods at the temple..." January 28 Heisenberg/Schrodinger and Hindu/Buddhist complementarities.... Hemachandra shares: As I was reading BD, I was doing some background reading (esp regarding Heisenberg's cnxn with Vedanta) and I came across this interesting post: ... January 29 Oprah may have read Being Different! Perhaps celebrity US TV personality Oprah Winfrey read the BD chapter 4 on Chaos! (IThough it's more likely these words below are her own :). Either way, it's... January 29 Why Krishna Historicity and Black color is critically pushed and pro bvk shares: Please take your valuable 35 minutes to watch the  interesting video to watch  and contemplate on the questions below:   Many of Rajiv Malhotra's fears seem to be turning out to be ground reality faster than expected. ` Breaking India, Being Different'  are an outcome  of  tolerating  `Invading the Sacred', not just by icons, personalities but  also by LANGUAGE of the SACRED, called  `SAMSKRUTHAM'. `Break Down in India' is much more serious issue that needs to be urgently addressed, in a much more serious way compared to `Invitation to Paryaya' deliberations....     2.      Please  Watch carefully how the language of the video  speaking :    Krishna as (Supposed) Father of Jesus ; Holy Ghost is Paramatma'  could trigger more serious ` Ideas appealing'  to current ` Anglicized  Hindu communities ` interpreting Gita in the light of `Biblical model'..." Krishna: History or Myth (with Portuguese subtitles) from Saraswati Films on Vimeo. Srinivas responds: "I think there are a lot of incorrect conclusions derived from the video here. I agree that referring to Krishna, as the father of Jesus, while fine if argued metaphorically is at the same time, very dangerous according to what BD says. But the question to ask here is if those ISKON devotees were right, "according to Hindu dharma", in conceptualizing Jesus as the son of Krishna, the God? I think the answer lies in a concept called Ista devata and Swa-Dharma, both explained in detailed in BD as central ideas. Dharma operates at 3 levels. One, Sanatana dharma being eternal truths from the Vedas and Upanishads. Two, Kala dharma or the one that changes wrt time like the smrithi. Third, Swa-dharma where you have the choice of choosing your Ishta devata. While Sanatana, Kala and Swa dharma could each be different, to be spiritually successful, each should support the other. I.E. Swa dharma should support Kala dharma and Kala dharma should support Sanatana dharma. Meaning Swa dharma needs to be sacrificed for the greater good of Kala dharma and similarly Kala dharma should align itself to Sanatana dharma. The problem comes when someone's Swa dharma is imposed as Kala dharma or Sanatana dharma of others as is happening in the many examples sited in BD. Swa dharma is also something very personal between a Sadhaka and his Guru. This results in many dangers when shared with the public who are not aligned with this thought process. The sadhaka should also make a difference between one's Swa dharma and the right of everyone else to have their own Swa dharma, different from oneself. One has to be very careful about what aspects of one's behavior can be elevated to Kala dharma. And only apaurusheya can be elevated to Sanatana dharma. Just because BD critiques history aspect of religions does not mean dharma traditions should not research into whether Mahabharata or Ramayana took place or not. I dont see a greater time and need for such research to happen in dharmic traditions. It is high time we encourage and support such work. None of this means dharma traditions become "history centric". The main thesis of BD is that in abrahamic religions, if history is taken away, does their belief and spirituality still have any meaning? I.E. if there was no original sin and if Jesus was not a historical figure would you still believe in Jesus' teaching? This is not ever the case in dharma or anywhere in this video...."

Case Study: Debating with an Elite Convert

This thread covers a discussion that concluded in July 2011. Here is the original thread:

Need advice on how to dialog with an elite who has converted In this case study, 'Rajee', an acquittance of Rakesh, is a member of an elite management institute, and a recent convert to Christianity that alarms Rajesh, who wants her to ensure she has her eyes fully open. It appears that one or both of these persons live outside India. Rajee is willing to discuss the situation with Rakesh who posted this:  "Now, guys, here is an elite Hindu, educated at leading Management institutes, who has been converted Willing to dialog with me. Can we provide arguments to make her see the point, we are all trying to make ? Rakesh shares a message he sent her (excerpts): " ... Do write about your experience with Jesus I have often  found, such subjective " experiences " often cloud one's objectivity. Personal disappointments, emotional succour at the right time by say christians, constant repetition of certain pre programmed messages by your family, often have similar effects... i am willing to share my experiences and you may do yours. I want to make sure your conversion is based on real faith and so, i will test yours through this correspondence..." Rajee's response: "... I am going through a great personal relationship with Jesus...and of course each one to his own. Just as each life comes with an unique formula to unravel itself, I believe even the choice of God worship is one such. For me it has been an amazing journey so far- with abundant grace leading to great self introspection..." The first email sent by Rajesh to Rajee is excerpted below: "Dear rajee ... Good to know you have had a multi cultural marriage, congrats. However, i believe your initial reaction to your local pastor, should not extend to all christianity. Please read the history of inquisition, greek woman philosopher hypatia etc. There is a book by rajiv malhotra on breaking india, you should read it. Most inter cultural dialog initiatied by the church has a pre determined conclusion- jesus is the only way, your way is fundamentally wrong. The initial friendliness soon evaporates, if you probe further, unfortunate and not in line with Christ's teachings but true . ... i would sincerely like to continue this dialog and find out more, without troubling your affectionate relationship with [her Christian husband, I presume]. As some one who is committed to multiculturalism, based on a hindu approach to life, this is of deep interest to me." -------------------------------------------------------------------- The above are relevant excerpts from Rakesh's initial post that, if you observe, already includes a degree of Purva Paksha of Christianity. Now let us examine the feedback from RMF contributors. Margaret, a PhD scholar responded: "I am following that conversation attentitevely. This is a recurring problem in so many colonized countries when elite educated take upon themselves to defend their christian colonizers religion and mode of operation that lead their country in a mess. I defended a thesis on that issue of elites returning to their roots and how they have done it in facing internal factors, external factors. I wish your book [Breaking India] was available during that time? When I ordered it last month it and read it. It should struck a cord in all indigenous people because this is the story on how the world was colonized."  Ram follows up: "May I point out that the process of converting the so-called heathens (i.e. the indigenous civilisations of Asia) is now in fast forward mode ?    A classic example of  the long reach of evangelists massively financed by western countries is the fast growth of Christianity in South Korea. It rose from 43,000 (o.28 percent of total population) to a whopping 13,000,000 (i.e. nearly 40% of total population) in 1990. After reading my friend Rajiv Malhotra's well researched book, 'Breaking India', I am now convinced that soon, very soon, Hindus of  South India, especially Tamil Nadu, will face the same situation..." Suresh has prepared a reference to Rakesh: "*Below link has a number of discussions on almost all major points.  " Raj suggests:  "The essential problem here is: Parenting. Dharmic parents should signup their children for yoga and meditation programs, by the time they are about 10 years old... Doing yoga and meditation regularly, along with studying the Upanishads and Gita, will immunize the children against exclusivist ideologies." Rajiv Malhotra disagrees on the grounds of necessary condition - but insufficient and suggests that the problem lies in the history-centrism of Christianity: "While this kind of upbringing is important, it DOES NOT IMMUNIZE against conversion. You have made similar posts before which also implied that dharma as a "way of life" is all it is. I replied earlier as well that A WAY OF LIFE CAN EASILY BE IMPORTED AND ASSIMILATED TO FIT INTO JESUS' UNIQUE HISTORY. Nothing bothers the christian narrative if jesus is shown as yogi and meditator, in fact thats what inculturation is all about. The next gen of bharatnatyam dancers and training centers in many indian states is largely christian. the same trend is for yoga in USA. so how does knowing yoga/meditation counteract a version of christianity that already has these assimilated. ... Todays churches use sanskrit names, the priests even wear saffron, prayers are like puja including aarti, incense, sitting  crosslegged on floor. But the CONTENT is 100% Nicene Creed - that we suffer due to original sin, that jesus took virgin birth making him not a sinner, that he died for us so we may not have to suffer, and hence the only way to salvation is by accepting this HISTORY of events. I have written, written and written for 20 years about this central difference made by such a HISTORY. it seems to go in one ear and out the other. i have no idea what to do - or just give up??? ..." There are several followups, but none that do a Purva Paksha of Christianity, although Suresh' attempt, without the benefit of reading 'Being Different' that was not yet available at that time is laudable. No other guest contributor has suggested a solution to Rakesh's immediate problem and the focus shifted to future issues. Rajiv Malhotra's response to one such followup: "...Rajiv response: I have not read these specific works. But if they are like dozens of similar things I have read, they ARE INSUFFICIENT BECAUSE THEY LACK A GOOD PURVA PAKSHA... Hindu leaders have helped facilitate this process starting with three major movements: Ramakrishna Mission's US leaders such as Swami Pramananada, Parmahansa Yogananda, J. Krishnamurti. Scores of Hindu thinkers have followed suit and made this fashionable. ... Only after you reach the stage of grasping what I wrote above can one begin inquiring what the remedies are. Thats why I resist letting people jump fast to "solutions" because these tend to be obsolete, superficial and without the understanding of the intellectual discourse on the other side" Dr. Basant provides an useful suggestion: "This has been an issue which has confronted us all along. Even more so here in the US today... We are competing against religions, who have their basic tenets so exclusive that they will without any doubt proclaim theirs is the only way. ...the central principle of our dharma is freedom of thought and expression. However, our teachings from our religious leaders are that all religions are same, and a vast majority of us do not care. ...We have to be willing to read Old testament and Koran, and then be willing to tell our children and others that their dogma is so contradictory to our teachings" Vishal provides feedback from a related prior experience. I found it tough to summarize this, so I've included his full comment. "In my teenager class, I actually take the Koran and Bible with me. Two years ago, a teenager was upset and started arguing with me that Muhammad was a Yogi. He 'quoted' Muhammad to the effect that 'an ounce of meditation is worth more than a pound of prayer' (or something similar). I asked him where did he say that. He could not get the answer. One day, I opened a page of the Koran and read it out to him. He was horrified and argued that it was not a genuine copy of Koran. I asked him to verify himself that the Koran was published an Islamic nation, and was translated by an Islamic scholar. Similar things happened a few times again (there were other kids too who said similar things) but each time they were asked to read the Bible and the Koran in front of everyone. The objections ceased in a few months. The teenager mentioned above is now going to be a teacher in our school starting in September." Ramachandra commented: ".. With in a span of just 20 years Arya Samaj had phenomenal impact in the society by [re-]converting as much people as close to half a million.It is estimated by various people that by 1920, there were around 200000+ people who have been [re-]converted in the Punjab and Kashmir provinces alone from Islam to Hinduism..." The remaining followups had very little to do with Rakesh and Rajee. There was no followup from Rakesh. 'Purva Paksha' of Christianity may have helped Rakesh to prepare a followup for Rajee. Unfortunately, 'Being Different' was not yet released at that time, so many of us [Hindus] were largely unaware of the irreconcilable differences between Dharmic faiths and Abrahamic religions. If you are Hindu [any race/country/born/converted] who is concerned about the problem of induced conversions, and have gone through this discussion thread (especially in its original form): Take a few minutes to reflect on this situation and try answering the following question to the best of your ability, knowing what you know now. Suppose you were Rajee's friend. How would you follow up with her? (If possible, add your comments and indicate if you have already read 'Being Different' or not) .

RMF Summary: Week of July 4 - 10, 2011

This first thread involved a lot of discussion, so we will try to summarize this in a separate thread. July 4 Need advice on how to dialog with an elite who has converted Now, guys, here is an elite Hindu, educated at leading Management institutes, who has been converted Willing to dialog with me Can we provide arguments to make... July 4 USCIRF 2011 Annual Report USCIRF US Commission for International Religious Freedom ANNUAL REPORT FOR 2011 This will come as no great revelation to Rajiv and others in the know,  July 4 Book Read : The History of Hindus : The Saga of Defeats??? Rajiv Malhotra: I was at the Indian Institute of World Culture last week to request them to own a copy of 'Breaking India', which they accepted gracefully and have promised to buy one when they order for the next set of books. I also happened to come across a book titled 'The History of Hindus : The Saga of Defeats'. The author is Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma, a M.A. (Hindi), Ph. D. (Punjab), M. A. (Sanskrit), Ph. D. (America). Though it seemed that the book was eloquently titled, the veiled hatred in the name lead me to read the book. Whatever the author's credentials, the book is a 'hoi polloi' of Indian history and a antagonistic view of Hindus.  The author mentions that the "Hindu religion needs a critical re-evaluation from none else but its own adherents. This will bring about reforms in Hindu society which can be done only by Hindus themselves", but the book is a riff-raff, cataloging defeats in wars, maligning Hindu leaders, Hindu society and traditions. The book has 7 chapters and the gist of each is below. In the first chapter, the writer blames the Hindu religion for all the defeats of Hindus at war...." Geeta investigates: "...And most alarming was a Swami Dayanand Saraswati University site where someone says Dr. Surendra Sharma a well respected prof is not the same as the author of Manusmriti, and says we know both these men,  but doesn't reveal this man's identity. And then his name appears on an "Islamic Literature site also. It appears he is a fraud with no credentials, and writing to malign the history of India. It would certainly require more sleuth savvy than I possess to dig out the real identity of this person"  July 5 Conversions targetting indiian americans I was there in national mall washingon dc for watching fireworks today. There were a group of evangekists targetting indians and giving them cds in indian... July 5 Christians now appropriate Dwajastampa See the picture. http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=14184&SKIN=C A new flag mast has been erected at the National Shrine of Saint Thomas,...   July 6  Padmanabh Temple Wealth Food for thought: If the just discovered Padmanabh Hindu Temple of Kerala has a wealth of over Rs. 10,000,000,000,000, imagine the wealth of one time richest.. July 6 Re: Taj Mahal vaults Leaving P.N. Oak aside, Dr. S.R. Rao who used to be Superintending Archaeologist, Agra Circle has examined the locked room of the Taj. (There are no vaults.) .. July7 Myth of Sameness Dear Sir, I wanted to share that a few years back, Dr. Frank Morales (Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya) published an essay which I think echo many of your views... Rajiv's response: I know Frank since the 1990s. He interacted with me on this subject after I posted my Sulekha article, "Myth of Hindu sameness". Please see. ... Over the next few years the [IISc] talk was repeated in many places and Sulekha asked to publish it. Please see: History-Centrism is a term I have coined and developed a whole framework in which the difference can be seen to be NOT RECONCILABLE with adhyatma-vidya. ....In case someone has serious time, then after reading the above two articles, they should also read: http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2005/07/geopolitics-and-sanskrit-phob\ ia.htm ... Ironically, most of my best readers and the ones with the most thoughtful intellectual responses on this issue are Judeo-Christian theologians. July 7 Islamic soft power and slow conversion Ganesh shares:  Just came across this news posted in MSN. India. It's a 3 page report of how revamped courses, nominal fees and job opportunities are luring many a Hindu's.. July 8 Taj Mahal's vaults Michel Danino comments on the "vaults" of Taj: Dear Srinivasanji, I am sorry that many Hindus still swear by PN Oak - this is shooting ourselves in the foot. His Taj Mahal research was no better than his "Roman Empire = founded by Rama" and "Jerusalem = Yadu Shala" theories. The Taj Mahal conspiracy theory can be thrown out on three simple grounds: 1) An architectural style never exists for a single building, and no Hindu temple has a style comparable to the Taj although thousands of them have been studies by architecture and art experts. 2) We have many treatises of Hindu architecture - Manasara and Mayamata are two I have read carefully - and none refers to a style remotely like the Taj's. 3) There is such a thing as Islamic architecture and the Taj shares some of its classical features, as do other Mughal monuments (such as Humanun's tomb). There will be nothing in the Taj Mahal's vault except old brooms, empty paint pots and plenty of bat droppings. Let PN Oak rest in peace but let his followers wake up to common sense and stop the self-inflicted harm.  Mishra wonders: "...Islamic architectures on top of Hindu temple foundations?" Seshadri suggests: "...misleading to name architecture and other art forms as Islamic - a rigidly organized belief system. This kind of naming is erroneous. Something like Persian or Arabic are some geographical reference makes objective sense to put things in proper.." "  Ramachandra asks: "..Dear Michel Danino While broadly agree with you, the existance of a massive temple in Agra and looting of it by the emperor is a recorded one.  Aurangazeb demolished a great temple at Agra and looted its valuables..." Carpentier responds: "Arab and Persian Turkic architecture does generally reflect and express Islamic cosmology. There are various treatises (Okada et al.) on the Taj's symbolic relation with Quranic and Hadith principles and notions about the Throne of God and the Garden of Jannat. It is so clear that the Taj belongs to the Irano-Turkic school of architecture..." Vishal feels the dates don't match in a prior claim: "According to this URL, the temple was looted towards the end of the reign of Shah Jehan and beginning of Aurangzeb's reign. This rules out the site of Taj Mahal because the tomb's construction was started more than 15 years before Aurangzeb's reign (and therefore, not exactly 'towards the end of Shah Jehan's reign')." Sameer comments: "Just because PN Oak is not credible, we need not throw out the baby with the bathwater. A good analysis of the evidence is given here:  "The Question of the Taj Mahal" (Itihas Patrika, vol 5, pp. 98-111, 1985) by P. S. Bhat and A. L. Athavale"  M.Danino responds to Ramachandra: "... Demolishing a temple is one thing and a well established Islamic practice. Oak's theory has nothing to do with this - the whole Taj Mahal as you see it today (minus perhaps the surface decorations) is a Hindu structure in this thesis. This is grossly absurd, yet thousands of Hindus have been hyptonized by it. That is all I meant. .." read the original thread for the entire discussion. July 8 A Dutch parliament motion and Dalit Solidarity Network The Dutch parliament recently passed a motion against what they call caste discrimination in South Asian countries like India, Nepal, Pakistan and Bangladesh. ... July 9 {Breaking India} Inventing the Aryan Race Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines," Amaryllis... July 10 Global Nexus: Up to 70 million Indian Christians today, growth accel Important to note what the Western Christian authorities are saying, in congratulating themselves. Charity as conversion strategy, Jesus healing... ... July 10 Teaching Bhagawad Gita in school is against Secular ideology. BJP government in Karnataka had recently announced publicly that Bhagavad Gita would be taught in schools. ...

RMF Summary: Week of June 20 - 26, 2011

Watch this video at your own risk. June 20 Video: Four superstar "India experts" lecture at New School, New York One of the speakers is the famous Sheldon Pollock who won the GOI's Padma Bhushan award (author of "The death of Sanskrit" and a theorist that Sanskrit is a language that oppresses dalits). He is also the man in charge to produce a series of classical Indian texts translated into English for English speaking youth worldwide, funded by Narayana Murthy. Another speaker on Hindu "puritanism" is Wendy Doniger. Another is an Indian discussing how the Mumbai establishment is terrorizing the Muslims in the pretext of controlling terrorism... June 20 Yale's Anti-Semitic Act Michel Danino shares a link: A friend sends this. Very much on the lines of what Rajiv has been saying for years. Can it be of any use to Hindus? The parallels are so striking. (And see the last but one para.) There were a couple of responses to this. Come Carpentier disagreed with some points, with a counter-response from Rajiv Malhotra. A followup thread is here. June 21 {BreakingIndia} Introduction Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, " *Breaking India <http://www.breakingindia.com/>: Western Interventions in Dravidian... June 22 Newsgram publishes Prof. Sardesai's review of BI Review can be found here. June 22 'Breaking India' now exposed by 'The India Cables' Hello All, Chapter 15 of 'Breaking India' exposes the US governments direct/indirect involvement in evangelism as foreign policy. Hitherto the readers of the book were educated about this fact but now the truth is out in the open. 'The India cables' published by The Hindu exposes the same fact albeit on a different note.  'The India cables' dated April 21, 2011, published a classified US Embassy communique whose subject was "RAJASTHAN GOVERNOR REFUSES TO SIGN ANTI-CONVERSION BILL". http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india-cables/the-cables/article1713099.ece. The interest of the US embassy in the anti-conversion bill lays bare the fact that BI exposed. More interesting is the part, headlined 'Repercussions in Rome', where the Pope is concerned about the 'religious intolerance' in India and urges the GOI to reject such legislation ... June 22 Re: Indian youth increasingly turning to Sanskrit *June 22, 2011* ** * *Even as colonial disciplines like Indology, Indo-European Studies and even Sanskrit departments in the west are imploding, there... June 22 Daniel Pipes and Aryan Invasion Daniel Pipes mentioned  Aryan Invasion in a recent article. When rebutted by a commenter, he responded, "I realize that this theory is contested in India but it is widely accepted elsewhere".  "Breaking India"  initial chapters give the complete picture of the development of AIT/ART and also talks about its debunking ... Here is a followup from N. S. Rajaram Re: Article on the Aryan myth I have attached the promised article. I have contacted Daniel Pipes also telling his that I was disappointed to see a scholar of his stature give credence to... Fwd: Your comments are online at Daniel Pipes ... From: Daniel Pipes <comments@...> Date: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 9:13 PM Subject: Your comments are online at Daniel Pipes To:... June 24 Purva Paksha: Extra Constitutional Authority and Corruption We, or our Gurus have nothing like this at all – courts, jurisdiction, sentence, compulsion and such like. Indian philosophy comes as freeware whereas the... June 24 India today writes on the Church v/s LDF text book row India Today in their June 27,2011 issue has a similar article written under the title "HISTORY REWRITE". ... June 24 My interview with "The Undercurrents" of Canada Dear Readers, We are honored to present an interview with Mr. Rajiv Malhotra, Author of "Breaking India".... June 25 {Breaking India} Overview of European Invention of Races Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines," Amaryllis... June 25 Watch YouTube videos of my California talks, Q&A The above playlist has 9 videos, the first four are my talk divided into thematic breakpoints. The... This thread is also important from the perspective of the coming together of the voices of Dharma from different parts of India.   Vish adds: I am here in Bangalore. For now, I bought 3 copies of Breaking India to be given to 3 friends whom I will be meeting shortly - Karnataka's leading Literary giant S.L. Bhyrappa, Movie Actor Ananth Nag, and Sugata Srinivasaraju (Outlook South India Editor). Please see [links] (1) , (2), (3). N. S. Rajaram adds: This is excellent. Bhyrappa is a good friend of mine. I will ask him to write an article on it for a major Kannada newspaper when I return. He has a huge following. June 26 Why is reviewing author's name hidden? Rajiv Malhotra asks: Does anyone know the name of the author and why s/he is identified simply as "history prof from DU"? ... Geeta responds:  "The review is by Saradendu Mukerjee. He is also the author of the following: Peasants, Politics and the British Govt. 1930-1940- A Study in Bihar. Secularism: theory and practice in Contemporary India. His review that appears here, can also be viewed on 'Intelli Brief"

RMF Summary: Week of April 18 - 24, 2011

April 18

Breaking India - A Review Essay Breaking India - A Review Essay By Krishna Kirti Das April 18 "The Martyr Bomber Becomes a Goddess: Women, Theosis, and Sacrificial Violence in Sri Lanka" MSC provides a couple of useful links and adds: "I suspect that, in the years to come, we should see similar motivated "research" in India - what with UChicago setting up a centre in New Delhi avowedly to “pursue ideas for the sake of ideas” and other such illustrious institutions no doubt lining up for a piece of the action" April 18 Is conversion crime? I came across a article in the Mangalore edition of the Deccan Herald where the author of the article Prof(Dr) H M Watson makes a case for conversion... April 18 Holocaust to Suicide Bombing: Prof. Pollock blames Hinduism Aravindan Neelakandan notes: The [] article cites "Breaking India". It argues that certain prestigious scholars being funded by Infosys Foundation and given Padam Bhushan award by Indian government are known to compare Hindu mimamsa with Nazism. BNA adds: "A history professor is supplying a research report as History in her book with poisonous conclusion, possibly to support the Dravidian Politics and the Hoax of Aryan Invasion.N.Ram of The Hindu [the Atheist] released her book. She mentions of a "Brahminical Religion" posing as the only religious past of South India while her truth was that Jainism and Bhuddhism  also existed at that time. There was never any "Brahminical Religion fighting with others..." A. Neelakandan responds: "Even Indologists like Lorenzen, who have no love lost for Hinduism, have shown how the term 'Hindu' has been in use as a religious-geographical identifier starting at least third century BCE. 'Breaking India' has an entire appendix devoted to showing how the most ancient Tamil literary tradition, shows that Tamil society, from its hoary past,has for its religious life a Vedic kernel. In terms of non-Vedic traditions like Jain etc. and also folk tradition, we know that harmonizing tendencies have become part of the popular Tamil psyche even during the time Chilapathikaram (not later than 5th century BCE [corrected by A. Neelakandan to CE) was written. The poet of this,perhaps the first pan-Hindu epic, shows how the tribal worship of Goddess has Vedic knowledge embodied in it... Intellisurfer responds: "...There is an element of truth in the view that South India, especially Tamil Nadu had varying philosophies competing and existing harmoniously. It is something to be proud about. Among the 5 great tamil epics - 2 are Buddhists, 2 are Jain and one influenced by Buddhism. All were written before 10th Century AD. It could mean that Jainism and Buddhism was very much in vogue among the elite, merchants and nobility. Saivite Kings are known to have donated towards Buddhism viharas..." April 18 Pakistani official defence website slams "Breaking India" book I am not at all surprised to see this alert pakistani official defence forum sounding its bugle... April 19 A Miilion dollar book review Book Reviews Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines by Dr. Prema Nandakumar Long ago, we were taught in the geology class that a fault line was one where rocks had been displaced in the solid earth-structure which made it a weak spot threatening the overall stability at some unspecified point of time. Similarities abound in creation and what is true of the material world is reflected in the social life of a nation.

RMF Summary: Week of October 29-November 4, 2012 - Part 2

Readers who arrived here via a twitter link (or have a twitter account) and are  eager to contribute are requested to tweet/RT or post comments in the group discussion, since there are a couple of calls for volunteers to assist and/or provide critical feedback. How you can assist: 1. Sanskrit text references for or against views expressed by Rajiv ji in Part-1. Read the summary (and the entire discussion in RMF) prior to jumping in. 2. Logistical help in Chicago. See Nov3 post below. Part-1 of the week's summary can be found here. Part 2 November 3 (Rajiv Malhotra information post) Panel discussion on BD at AAR, Chicago, November 16th On Nov 16th in Astoria Room, Hilton Chicago Hotel, my book BEING DIFFERENT will be discussed by a panel of academic scholars. This event is part of the annual conference of the American Academy of Religions. For details, please visit: http://www.hcstudies.org/am.html I hope to see several of you and your friends in the audience. There will be three speakers on this panel, after whom I shall give my response, and then there will be Q&A from the audience. This is an important event to bring my ideas into the mainstream academy through debate and discussion. All three talks plus my response will then be published in a journal in late 2013. (This is totally separate from the International Journal of Hindu Studies' special issue on BD that is scheduled to come out at the end of 2012. This special issue will have 6 major articles on BD, by those supporting its ideas and by those critical of them, along with my 40 page response. It is through such interventions that my ideas can enter the discourse inside the academy for serious new scholars to take up.) Call for help: I need some local help in Chicago for this Nov 16 event. If there are people on this list who wish to help me, it would be most appreciated to contact me by email privately. I would like to chat by phone/email about the details of the assistance. For instance, a sponsor has kindly agreed to donate a free copy to each attendee at the event. But since the donor is not based in Chicago, we need a local Chicago person who can help with the logistics to accept postal/UPS delivery of the books and help in the book's distribution at the event. I can discuss further once we have someone lined up to help. I am now in India for a brief visit to deliver a major talk at the Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha bi-annual gathering of top leaders in Ahmedabad. That is the most important body of Hindu leaders - most shankaracharyas and many other prominent leaders of sampradayas will attend. Over 100 major Hindu groups are expected to be represented by their senior most leader. They have given me an extensive time slot to present my work. Its a rare honor to address such a gathering. The goal is to influence the leaders' thinking so their respective organizations can take up these ideas and spread them further in their own ways. Regards, rajiv November 3 (continuing discussion) Yoga in recent news  Related BBC link "....From what I've read, the Ashtanga Yoga that was taught and propagated by Yogacharaya Shri K. Pattabhi Jois is an astoundingly medically beneficial technique. There seem to be countless miraculous stories of individuals who have overcome massive injuries with Guruji's (and Ashtanga Yoga's) help. However, questions naturally arise as to how Ashtanga Yoga, which was painstakingly realized/developed and passed down through generations, will continue in the future. Will the rigorous guru-shishya parampara continue, with devotion to and respect for Hindu/Dharmic sources?" November 3 Vanishing of Indian Pre-Islamic dresses with coming of Islam The issue of the islamic effect on Indian dresses is much talked about privately among people. We all know that the traditional dresses like salwar kameez etc... November 4 (continuing discussion from October 14) Christian conversion efforts in Bangalore. This discussion thread continues to elicit responses over the last two weeks. A commentator notes: "Rajiv ji but your blogs and talks (in u-tube) have been very very useful. I have been able generate a lot of interest amongst my friend circle. Surprisingly/sadly there is very little coverage in Indian media about your books and your other work (correct me if I am wrong). But certainly lot of people have started to take note of your videos of late." Rajiv comment: The number of views for my youtube videos is very small when you compare with popular thinkers on similar topics. Regarding Indian media's lack of coverage - you are correct. One can understand the posture of the media who are ideologically opposed. But the tragedy is that even those who think along similar lines are more interested in plagiarizing and turning it into their own works no matter how diluted or poorly argued. Also, there is frenzy among the so-called hindu activists to boost personal careers and status by using whatever ideas they can quickly pick up and start throwing out as one-liners, even if they dont really get it. All this causes dilution of support for the heavy research and publishing work that remains mostly undone...

RMF Summary: Week of October 17-23, 2012

Italicized words are mine and not part of the original RMF post.

October 17: Hinduism emerged from Christianity - Book  

If you enjoy reading fiction:

The author a Prof. M. M. Ninan  has written a book "The Emergence Of Hinduism From Christianity" Nearly a 1,000 have downloaded it.  

http://archive.org/details/TheEmergenceOfHinduism

A Study of how Hinduism emerged from Christianity brought into India by St.Thomas by syncretic gnostic integration

October 18: Christian conversion efforts in Bangalore.

Update: A person noted a similar situation at Karol Bagh station in New Delhi. The Bangalore Hindu did not keep quiet, and raised a ruckus upon being brazenly 'solicited', which scared the evangelist off. Interesting approach.

October 18:  A concrete example of producing school textbook changes

This is truly wonderful news. Please share this.
Rajiv Malhotra posts: I am copying below a concrete example of textbook changes we have caused just this past week with the help of a very tiny team and with zero budget. The Hinduism chapter of one very popular US school textbook is now being corrected as a result of what we did just in the past month. You can see the impact that has resulted very quickly. We did not hold any gatherings (of "like minded people" to give lectures to each other, or pat each other's backs, spend a single dollar of budget.) But we did the right action. Nor have we made any public noises about what we were doing. Since I initiated the USA textbook changes project nearly 20 years ago, we have a large database of such books and critiques, along with various attempts both successful and failed.... (7 comments)

October 22: Dramatic growth of Hindu education institutions across the country
The rising sun of the swamiji schools With yoga, transcendental meditation, Indian spiritual wisdom and cuisine having won themselves global reputation,..
(This may seem like the change that Hindus can believe in, but there is more to this than meets the eye it seems. Rajiv Malhotra, notes, among other things, ".. But many schools i visit that are run by big hindu gurus are in fact trying hard to become like the old convent schools run by christians. Even the yoga taught in many cases is like the secularized YMCA yoga, depleted of its hindu roots.")

October 23:  Thread Closed-"Foreign invaders were unimpressed by Hindustan"
This thread based on Eddie (Hadley?)'s comment is now closed. Is spite of the many & varied responses from other group members, commenter Eddie merely kept...
(what a relief!)

October 23: Italians converting to Hinduism - ??
Namaste. Placed below is a news item in circulation titled - Italians converting to Hinduism"  ! Please follow through the post below carefully. Contemplate.

Excerpts:

Question:Who would be happy to gloat about and training their future killers and future generational bosses ?

Response: The so called  ' Hindus' who don't understand what is ' Dharma ' Protection !

Reasoning:  : Why would Vatican invite a 'Veda Pundit' to train their own small folk and get ' authorized entry' in to the ' targeted ' Vedic Tradition' ? and desire the training to he held at Italy ?

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