American Veda: A Digestion of Hinduism - Part 1

Prologue:
This is the first of two parts of a detailed summary that tracks the discussion on Phil Goldberg's American Veda (AV) in the forum. On the surface, this appears to be a very positive book about Hinduism that will have a positive impact in the long run. Besides, the author himself appears to be an amiable person (he's on twitter too). What does a deeper analysis of Phil's writings reveal? The first round of discussions was initiated in December 2011 that resulted in an email debate between Phil and Rajiv. A few more threads around this topic were posted in February and June of 2012.  The most recent discussions occurred in September and December 2012, and will be summarized in a sequel to this post. A big thanks to contributor Surya for the Purva Paksha done in this post!

There are three sections to part-1.
The first section introduces Phil's book. RMF gets to know of Phil's book. 

Section-2 gets inside the book and some of Phil's articles in Huffington Post and his Youtube videos. Evidence of digestion, deliberate erasing of original Hindu sources are sighted. 

Section-3 (Digestion) gives you a blow-by-blow textbook example of digestion, where the conversation starts with the greatness of Hinduism and how the world can learn from it .... and ends with a stiletto that says you don't really have to be a Hindu, no way to convert, have your Ash Wednesday, and you can just utilize Yoga and Hinduism like a "plug in" or a "add-on" to your existing religion (Abrahamic).

Section 1 (December 2011) Initial Exchange

The discussion of AV was motivated by the discussion in the following thread:
My response to a Christian wanting to DIGEST Hinduism into Christian The person writing the post below is threatened by my positions on difference between Hinduism and Christianity. He espouses how Hinduism can be digested into... 

In a followup response, Rajiv Malhotra had this to say in reference a quote from a Newsweek article posted by Surya:
"... We are all Hindus now - Lisa Miller, Newsweek, August 14, 2009,
..Quote 2
The Rig Veda, the most ancient Hindu scripture, says this: "Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names." A Hindu believes there are many paths to God. Jesus is one way, the Qur'an is another, yoga practice is a third. None is better than any other; all are equal."

Rajiv's response:
" The mindset in the above quotes, from Lisa Miller to Stephen Prothero, and on to Phil Goldberg's "American Veda" - all represent the digestion of dharma. Prothero above even says that Hinduism is nothing more than a collection of parts you can pick and choose from. he does not understand the
notion of integral unity I explain in chapter 3 of BD. That is what we need to understand to prevent this digestion by breaking into parts and cherry picking. "

In a subsequent followup, Rajiv noted:
"...Self-Realization Fellowship, Lisa Miller's article "We are all Hindus", Phil Goldberg's recent book called "American Veda" and many other similar works that our gurus parrot - these are accepting the Judeo-Christian premises into which Hindu deities and stories get mapped WITH APPARENT RESPECT...."

Someone forwarded Rajiv's comments to Phil, leading to an interesting email exchange and discussion that is captured in this thread. We carry excerpts here:
Phil Goldberg's exchange with me
Phil (to Rajiv): You are right that I rejoice in the impact the dharma has had on me and America as a whole.  You are not right in implying that I don't care if the original sources are not recognized.  I stated several times in American Veda that it is important to acknowledge the sources and maintain their purity. ... In the last chapter, for instance, I write:

...Even more important, respecting the source can help prevent something vital from getting lost in translation. . . .  while adaptation is inevitable and desirable, one hopes the process will be carried out with care. If we do not treat authentic Vedic teachings with respect, we will deprive the future of their true value. The task—a delicate and sacred one—is to carefully shape the ancient ideas to fit modern society without distorting them or diminishing their value.

I hope that clarifies my position.  I'm not sure what you mean when you say: So many Indians and Hindus support this book (and others like it) and are surprised when I tell them how dangerous this is.   Do you think there is something dangerous about my book?  If so, I'm at a loss to understand what you could possibly mean.

Rajiv to Phil: Hi Phil, I would be delighted to discuss with you online or live, with mutual respect. I regard you as a good writer and mean nothing personal when I feel a certain way of your thesis. If you recall, i spent considerable time with you in person in delhi in 2005 going through my UTurn Theory. At that time you said you were thinking of writing a book on the history of yoga in america. I pointed out to you that the real story is how its Indian roots got forgotten. You were intrigued. I also mentioned that the story does not end with yoga as commonly understood but goes into neuroscience, cognitive science, transcendentalism, etc. You were at my talks when i described all this in great detail using powerpoints. Later after a few months you wrote to me that you had extensively revised the book and it was going to take longer. When it finally came out, I did see a whiff here and there on the uturn theory, but my concern has been that it truncated it and glossed over the real issues with appropriation - the digestion into western universalism. ... This is what BEING DIFFERENT discusses, i.e. the irreducibility of core differences that force a choice. These choices are the boundary where the western ego recoils and wants to return home and reclaim western identity. The commonly celebrated "joy of being digested" as in the references to Lisa Miller or your writings are the result of not understanding the full dimension of digestion. None of this means that your work is intentionally "dangerous" - but its incompleteness in appreciating the process at work causes people to celebrate the digestion as a sort of merger of equals which it is not. The tiger digesting the deer remains the tiger, in fact stronger, but the deer turns into a pile of shit. This has happened to many civilizations that were also similarly "assimilated" into Christianity and the west - but they now live in museums... If you want to discuss this, I would be delighted. Lets approach it with open minds. 

Venkat comments:
"... A very good observation by Rajiv in his response to Goldberg. Historically, Christianity has usurped traditions that belonged to other religions and cultures, by a process George.T aptly calls Christian scavenging. Ironically, many traditions such as yoga (and its intrinsic aspect of meditation) are incompatible with Christianity. Recent researches in neuroscience make it clear that if one were to be faithful to Christianity, a contemplation on the Christian god results in rumination, which activates the limbic system and the amygdala, producing an undesirable fight-or-flight response, unlike Hindu meditation, which activates the anterior cingulate and causes bliss...."

Rajiv's response:
"I started this work in the mid 1990s as a theoretical physicist pursuing Indian philosophy. The center of my interest was consciousness studies. I invested heavily on inquiring why the appropriations from dharma into what became "western" theories in the mid 1990s was not see as an issue. Nobody cared, least of all the highly ignorant Hindu leaders patrolling with pomp all over the place.

So the first set of grants given by my foundation were specifically to get trained Indian philosophers into this area. After a few million dollars and several dozen events and sponsored scholars, we did achieve in making a few obscure Indian scholars very prominent.

But Templeton Foundation stepped in and appropriated nearly every one of them. This is a major story I want to write one day. The data is well organized but I have been too busy elsewhere...."
 
bluecupid commented:
"I like Phil's approach. The Dharmic traditions of the East are being accepted and mainstreamed into the West bit by bit and its creating an open-minded, inclusive atmosphere which benefits Indian Hindus, if only Indian Hindus would take advantage of that."

Rajiv response:
"The above view is precisely the one held by "liberal, secular,
progressive" westerners who (contrary to what liberalism ought to mean) cannot shed their fixation about western identity....
... Note her separation and dissection of dharma away from the cultural soil of the source. This is precisely what the west did to separate Buddhism from India and from Hinduism - all in the name of "cleaning" it of its cultural inferiority. ... now this digestion is rather open.

I predict that Hindu dharma is following suit fast - and bluecupid is an example of this mindset. Digestion is being called "mainstreaming". The old soil from which it emerged is to be rejected in favor of the new soil thats clean (and white).

This discussion is good education for those Indians and other Hindus sitting in silos imagining that the only danger is Christianity. I find folks of this kind at places like Esalen - a white bastion as its founder also once said - and their racism is indeed very deep but subtle."


Rajiv Malhotra is another followup brilliantly sums up the necessity for Purva Paksha:
"Reversing the gaze is a necessary but not sufficient condition to resist.

Until you do this, you will continue to live unconsciously in the colonized paradigms that have been downloaded over centuries. The mere act of gazing at the "other" turns the colonial framework into "other", creating space between
subject and object to examine the other unemotionally.

This separation then generates the need to understand the "self" that is doing the gazing. WHERE do I stand and gaze at them? How am I different? This is how I got started, and then begins the quest to understand one's difference in a way
that is not causing anxiety.

Once difference is clearly anchored (with mutual respect), then the resistance becomes a possibility.

Gandhi established his difference and used that as his ground for resistance - his use of purva paksha, difference and refusal to get digested are explained in the book as examples."

Wadhwa responds:
"Mr.Phil Goldberg's attempt to write American Veda and using this as a title for his book amounts to intellectual subversion and moral turpitude behind the mask of literature. Vedas are basically repositories of knowledge with a scientific basis standing for dignity and sublimity of human life and its perfection. They are the first and foremost books of the world literature and the foundation of Hindu religion since they form the root of most of Hindu scriptures. Apparently, using the title 'American Veda' by Phil is nothing short of a disinformation campaign to mislead people and a subtle attempt to digest real Vedism..."

Shaas responds:
"... "American Veda" - the title is sloppy, lacking humility and respect. But in the same manner, Veda is not Indian. As you stated, Veda stand for "dignity and sublimity of HUMAN LIFE and its perfection". Therefore they are as American as Indian and as Brasilian. Veda is the basis, the blueprint of life and the
Universe. They contain universal truths, universal laws."

Rajiv's response:
"yes, title is a non issue. I am in private discussion with Phil
and we both hope to have a video taped conversation between us to bring both sides openly and amicably. Meanwhile, as a courtesy to him as he is not present here (though we invited him to join), I am closing this thread."


Readers can find more details in a few posts from the blog "DigestingVeda": "Phil Goldberg's exchange with Rajiv Malhotra".

Section 2 (February 2012) Red Flag

A second thread that deals with Goldberg's work is:
American Digestion
This thread was initiated by Surya, and Rajiv provides a preface: 
"..Besides the issues raised by Surya below regarding Goldberg's book, I have expressed my displeasure to Goldberg. He interviewed me in depth in India and USA for material to write his book and received numerous leads from
me. I was speaking at a Delhi conference on my UTurn Theory and there he was in the front row with his recorder. So many of the ideas and examples I gave then found there way in his book - including the one about Mary baker Eddy mentioned below - with only a marginal acknowledgment.
So here is another kind of digestion also going on here: Western authors who learn from Indian "native informants" (myself in this case) then go on to write in their own names what ought to be credited to the "native informants". I will
address this issue in my uturn writings... In Jim Burklo's critique of BD (to be published in a week) he relies upon
Goldberg as his authority to claim that Hinduism is a bogus category invented by Indians under colonial influence! Talk  about one westerner quoting another, who in turn merely cited yet another - in a circular chain of quotes - to then
establish what becomes known as "fact", and this shows up in Wiki, media, textbooks, museum interpretations..."

Surya posted:
"The Background
---------------
Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910), founder of the Christian Science Movement, published "Science and Health With a Key to the Scriptures" in 1875. She was greatly influenced by writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry D. Thoreau who
made their Dharmic knowledge influence widely felt through books, magazines and newspaper articles. We find in as late as the 33rd edition of her book, excerpts from Sir Edwin Arnold's translation of Bhagavad Gita.

... Philip Goldberg, in one of the presentations of his book "American Veda", makes a reference to it and admits that these references were dropped in later versions. He just smiles uncomfortably as he says this and nothing more.

 

.... in future versions of Mary Baker Eddy's book, ideas were implicitly presented as Christian Science. No more references to Bhagavad Gita.

This is what Rajiv Malhotra calls digestion - as in, you digest the content and wipe out the identity of the source. Goldberg implicitly acknowledges in the presentation with his uncomfortable smile that digestion has happened.

Do not expect sympathy or remorse from Goldberg - he goes far enough to call Emerson the American Shakaracharya, kind of implying the split from Dharmic roots began with Emerson.

I applaud Goldberg for pointing out the Dharmic origins in his presentations. His comments on Dharmic systems are very respectful and complementary of their richness. Unfortunately, he does not make any direct references to Christian intentions of digesting Dharmic knowledge systems...

Let us take a look at his article in Huffington Post titled "Colbert: Try Hinduism for Lent".

In that article, Goldberg writes:
"(a) While researching my book, American Veda, I interviewed dozens of Christians and Jews -- among them ministers and rabbis -- who returned to their ancestral faith after a lengthy period of alienation or indifference, because the teachings that were birthed in India gave them a new perspective on what it
means to be spiritual.

(b) You don't even have to call yourself a Hindu for that matter. I know it seems weird, but the tradition is so adaptable and welcoming that tens of millions of Americans orient their spiritual lives around meditation, yoga and other practices from India but don't think of themselves as Hindus"

I rest my case"

Arjun adds:
"I dont think Rajiv's critique of the Western paradigm is anti westerner or anti white because most of his work is criticizing Indians much more.People like myself can appreciate his work because we have the advantage of seeing both worldviews much more clearly then most because we are brought up in both.So he's right on the points he's making because who wants to see Yoga stripped away from its roots where instead of a whole lifestyle based on Dharma becomes an accessory to a western lifestyle to later end up like a Tamagotchi doing the Asanas for you when you touch the buttons when you're out shopping at your local
shopping mall.."

Surya has a followup to his initial post:
"Philip Goldberg is an ordained interfaith minister.  He had openly stated that he is not a Christian...

Goldberg is definitely sympathetic (if not more) to Christianity.  ... If he really did not believe in Christianity, he should not try so hard to prop-up what he does not believe in.  Why not just encourage people to follow the secular spiritual practices that he so wholeheartedly preaches and ask them to shun what he himself does not believe in?  After all, he is so quick and frequent to suggest that these secular spiritual practices do not need religious beliefs.

... Every chance he gets, he is happy to write about taking spiritual aspects from Dharmic systems while suggesting that the Hindu religious beliefs can be dropped.  He is also quick to disqualify Hinduism as a hodge-podge of regional sects that was congealed into an incoherent mass by the constructive power of the British Raj.  But in the same breath, he is very happy to suggest layering these isolated spiritual practices with Abrahamic religions which he claims he does not believe in...

...It is cleaner for interfaith ministers to prop-up the edifice of Abrahamic religions by extracting aspects of Dharmic systems, call them secular, and add them to Abrahamic religions.  Would undermine the faith if a self-proclaimed Christian preacher or religious scholar were to do this.  There is the added benefit I suppose; Calling yourself interfaith and Universal lends you credibility that you need when you are busily searching for things to extract out of Dharmic systems.  But actions and words cannot hide biases and true intentions.

Systematic theology is always on the prowl for uplifting secular add-ons for updating theology to fit the thinking of the times.  Dharmic spiritual practices are fast penetrating American lives.  .... Since Christian core scriptures are  incompatible with other religions, stripping out Dharmic religious aspects is essential to ensure scriptural integrity before absorbing secular aspects of Dharmic systems.  ...  if you can undermine and dismember the connections to the scripturally-incompatible Dharmic religious aspects before digesting the compatible spiritual aspects.  Who better to deliver this than one who appears to love Dharmic spiritual practices but has nothing to do with Christianity?" 

Here is the post from Digesting Veda blog on section-2 
 2. Post 2: "Goldberg's Interfaith "Digestion" plan exposed!" 

Section 3 (June 2012) Digestion

This thread was motivated by a review of "Being Different".
Response to a BD review and Evolution of God
Veena posted:
"I came across a video on Youtube by Philip Goldberg who is the author of the book American Veda. This is a 46 minute lecture enlightening a group of Americans on the extent of influence of ancient Indian thought within modern American society. While I have not read his book, his effort appears
complementary to the efforts of Being Different."

Rajiv comment:
" Message 2255 and the thread that follows from there was a
discussion specific to how Goldberg's work is a uturn/digestion. I recommend you go through that. Superficial impressions can be misleading."

Renu asks a very interesting question:
"I heard Mr. Goldberg's talk at the U of M in Ann Arbor. My feeling was some what similar to Veena ji's. Later I read the discussions -- one question that presents itself is; so what will make us feel better? Should we let them (white Christian, Muslim and others to be like us or not)? How is Hindu Dharma to spread?     

Rajiv's response:  
" Same dilemma exists for every instance of digestion. Each digestion also has the effect of spreading oneself. The deer gets 'spread' widely once it gets digested into the tiger - as part of the tiger's DNA running around, as the tiger's shit being spread, as part of the powerful tiger's presence in the jungle. The price is the loss of one's separate self existence. Through the East India Company's digestion of India's wealth, one could celebrate that Indian wealth has 'spread' widely - the crown jewels in the London Tower are mainly digested Indian jewels, for instance. So lets celebrate this, ok?

Whats a better way to spread without losing one's SEPARATE SELF-EXISTENCE? I am afraid I have explained this time and time again in writing and talks, so I wont be able to do it again at this now..."

Surya follows up in a separate thread using the good cop / bad cop analogy that was also mentioned in section 2 [sorry, i edited it out, but you can read it in the original thread]

Digestion - The Good Cop Style Let us recall the good cop/bad cop roles.  (This was explained by Rajiv in Invading the Sacred, pages 253-261, and since then in numerous writings and talks.) They are two sides of the same digestion coin.

Bad cops are bad mouthing Dharmic traditions and calling for conversions.  They are easy to spot.  They are the tigers wanting to digest the deer.  Deer has no confusion  - Deer sees the tiger as is and is fully ware of what the tigers want to do.  Tiger has never any confusion and makes no efforts to be subtle.

Good cops are respectful and full of praises.  They are not easy to spot.  They are sophisticated tigers in sheep's clothing.  Deer often confuse the disguised tiger to be a real sheep.  Deer needs to be sophisticated and not fall for the external appearance.  ...

Let us take a look at one of Phil Goldberg's blogs and analyze carefully.

Phil Goldberg writes: "one of the unique merits of the Indian spiritual heritage that colonial powers labeled Hinduism is that it's so multifaceted it makes Christianity, Judaism and Islam seem uniform by comparison. You know all those deities -- the gods and goddesses that cause outsiders to think Hinduism is polytheistic? To Hindus, they're just different forms of the one ultimate reality called Brahman. Same with avatars like Krishna and Rama."

Comment: What a nice guy!  Such a friend of Hinduism.  He truly understands us.

Phil Goldberg adds: "So there's plenty of room for Jesus. Most Hindus are happy to include him -- along with Buddha -- in the pantheon of incarnations, saints, gurus and holy ones they regard as worthy of reverence.  In fact, if you visit any number of organizations created by Indian teachers in America, such as Swami Vivekananda's Vedanta Society or Paramahansa Yogananda's Self-Realization Fellowship, you will see portraits of Jesus in places of honor. And in some of those institutions, Christians who want to be initiated with a sacred mantra are invited to choose one associated with Jesus -- or with Mary, if they're inclined toward the Divine Feminine. It's part of a concept known as ishta devata, or cherished deity.

Comment: Phil is calling for reverse digestion!!  He is suggesting that Jesus should be assimilated as an Avatar.  Let us invite him to our temples for flattering talks to boost our egos and send some money his way to say thank you for being a friend.

Phil Goldberg adds: "For thousands of years, India has understood that the divine can be imagined and experienced in all kinds of ways, as in the oft-quoted verse from the Rig Veda, Ekam sat vipraha bahudha vadanti  -- typically translated as, "Truth is one, the wise call it by many names." Hence, individuals are free to use their preferred form in their spiritual practices. "

Comment:  Hmmm ... why is Phil suddenly bringing this up?  I have seen this verse quoted by tigers to tenderize Deer before digestion.  This should raise a red flag because it is being wrongly interpreted to soften and disarm Hindus.  The verse is saying that truth can be seen and presented in more than one way.  A convenient, but wrong, interpretation that is often invoked for this verse is that all religions offer the same truth...

Wait a minute.  Is that why he suggested that there is plenty of room for Jesus?  I see now that he is not suggesting assimilation of Jesus as an Avatar.   Instead, is he suggesting that Hindus should find it acceptable to use Dharmic practices with Christianity?!

Phil Goldberg adds: "While researching my book, American Veda, I interviewed dozens of Christians and Jews -- among them ministers and rabbis -- who returned to their ancestral faith after a lengthy period of alienation or indifference, because the teachings that were birthed in India gave them a new perspective on what it means to be spiritual. And you don't have to wear a dhoti, put a mark on your forehead (you've already done that for Ash Wednesday anyway) or declare your allegiance to anything. There is no Hindu equivalent of what we call conversion."

Comment: OK.  Not exactly cheering for Hinduism.  But he wants Christians and Jews to experience spiritual practices of Hinduism and return to their respective faiths.  Still no blatant digestion but getting suspicious.  Some of us happy-go-lucky Hindus are happy as long as they openly acknowledge that they are digesting Dharma (rather than be angry with the thief, they are happy as long as the thief acknowledges that he stole from their specific house.)

Phil Goldberg adds: "You don't even have to call yourself a Hindu for that matter. I know it seems weird, but the tradition is so adaptable and welcoming that tens of millions of Americans orient their spiritual lives around meditation, yoga and other practices from India but don't think of themselves as Hindus."

Comment: Hello!  Unadulterated, blatant, quintessential digestion!!  This is typical of good-cop U-turners as described by Rajiv Malhotra.

Source

The U-turner who wants to internally harmonize what he has brought back from Dharma must digest what he likes of Dharma into his biblical DNA. This goes through various stages of removing aspects of Dharma (such as karma-reincarnation) that are incompatible with biblical DNA. Some prior Western U-turner might have already gone through this sifting process, eliminating the incompatible. Many of the popular U-turners have gained their popularity because they have created digested versions (they were involved in digestion and/or compiled what others already digested) for consumption by the mass market."

Bhattacharya responds:
"I'd suggest that as soon as Phil says "so there is plenty of room for Jesus", warning flags should go up.

At this point, we may think to ourselves: hmmmmm...plenty of room for Jesus who? Jesus Christ? But exclusivist history-centric Christian truth claims are at odds with Dharmic embodied knowing and integral unity. I bet this Phil fellow is
using a 'good cop' routine on me, any second now he'll try to digest Dharma, and remap it into synthetic Christian 'sameness'/Western Universalism." 

Rajiv Malhotra presents necessary conditions for how non-Hindus, (Christians, for example), can respectfully embrace Hinduism

1) Start with mutual respect as a necessary condition that we demand. 

2) "Mutual" does not mean unconditional; it has to be reciprocated from the other side. This is why Ravana, Bin Laden, Hitler type of persons do NOT deserve our respect, i.e. because they simply cannot respect others who are different. 
 
3) History-centrism must be EXPLICITLY REJECTED by the other side, because HC results in mandatory exclusivity claims, and hence CANNOT respect others.

4) Accepting Jesus without the prerequisite of removing HC is like adopting a snake without first removing its poison. I am always inviting my Christian friends to adopt dharma and see Jesus as Ishta-devata, BUT always explaining that the concept of ishta-devata requires removing HC. No ishta-devata can be exclusive or HC as that would distort the principle of ishta-devata..."

Sameer comments:
"There is a growing section of the population in the west that calls itself Christian, wants to follow Jesus, but does not accept the history-centric exclusivity claims. It is this section that can be compatible with Dharma and I think Dharmic people ought to make them feel welcome."


Rajiv's comment: 
"Not so fast. This is the group represented by Gregg in my Patheos debate. Pls read that and all the comments following his post. This mindset is also represented by Mark Tully - pls go through that video.

The point is that most of the time the non-history-centrism is a posture to help digest dharma, but upon closer inquiry there remains in the background the notion of the historical Jesus as necessary. I request that you kindly do some reading beyond the "sameness Christianity" - thats the next bridge for you to cross."

Chandramouli adds:
"... Mark Tully, suave, cultivated, genteel, rational, reasonable, global - and focussed - reveals a mindset that underpins what Rajiv has pointed out even while Tully Sahib projects a cultured universalism.

Listen, for example, to his "Life in a Seminary" .."

Raghu adds some interesting comments:
"According to Carl Jung, there are three deficiencies in the Christian Myth. These are:
firstly, the space given to women. In Catholicism there is space for a virgin pure woman.

Secondly, the space given to matter is only as a dead entity. It is also seen as the devils play ground.

Third, the space given to the other. The other is evil.

The dharmic myths have a balance between the masculine and feminine. Every human quality has a god, and every god has a consort. Matter is divine, and man is one part of the infinite evolution and manifestation of matter. Matter is Prakruthi and a primal godhead. There is no 'other' to be fragmented, dumped with ones shadow, therefore hated. The other is to be embraced and is part of oneself. This was explicitly stated by the Buddha as he achieved Nirvaana.

The Dharmic ways are therefore psychologically holistic, sociologically inclusive and politically democratic, ecologically oriented and spiritually grounded. That's why they are the hope for mankind. Wars will end and the earth will be treated with love only when the myths based on the fragmentation between the victim, the oppressor and the savior retreat and give space to the myths of deep inner work and meditation. The fragmented myths are not only the stuff of the Abhrahamic books but also of every Hollywood film and TV serial. They are the subtext of every advertising commercial. "

Sameer has some questions on Surya's deconstruction of Phil's article:
1. Let's be fair. Phil is saying that Jesus is compatible with Dharma but he is not saying that all religions offer the same truth.
[Moderator notes that a history-centric Jesus is simply incompatible with Hinduism and Dharmic faiths, as explained by Rajiv earlier]

This [the final part where Phil simply mouse-cliks & deletes Hinduism] I agree is objectionable. If they adopt Indic practices, they should respectfully acknowledge the source."

Surya has a brilliant followup that hits the nail on the head:
"Please ask them the following questions:
(1) Do they believe that Jesus is the Son of God? [Rajiv's comment: I would add 'literal' son, otherwise they play games with what 'son' means.]
(2)  Do they believe that Jesus died to redeem us of sin?
(3) That humans can have salvation only through Jesus?

If they say NO to all three questions, we can agree that history-centric exclusivity has been dropped.

If the answer is YES to all [any] three of those questions, they have much bigger problems than worrying about compatibility with Dharma. 

For example:
(1) What did Jesus achieve? Did he die in vain? How does he compare with Gandhi in achieving freedom for his people?

(2) What are the moral implications of Jesus forgiving sins of other people?  

Is it morally right for Jesus to forgive someone who harmed me without me forgiving that someone first?  

What are the implications of a human Jesus taking away personal responsibility by taking their sin away?
 
(3) What does Christianity offer that Dharmic traditions do not already offer?
...

Ergo, Christianity needs history-centrism, and hence the importance of Nicene creed to Christianity.  There is no escaping.

Christianity is a very resilient religion.  It has faced much opposition in its history and Nicene creed is a very well thought out expedient for its stability and survival.

Thus, if a liberal Christian says that they reject history-centrism, either they do not know the implications of what they are saying or they are lying with the intent of digesting Dharma.

This leads us to the consideration that Rajivji mentioned in his response: "The point is that most of the time the non-history-centrism is a posture to help digest dharma, but upon closer inquiry there remains in the background the notion of the historical Jesus as necessary."

Rajiv's comment:
This is exactly the sharpness of purva paksha and response that our tradition calls for. We must learn to push deeper and not settle for easy answers.

Sameer proceeds to do a Purva Paksha of the SRF (spiritual research foundation) that does not raise any red flags at a first glance. Rajiv's response:
"...Swami Kriyananda is simultaneously speaking great things about Hinduism and also Christianity WITHOUT THE CAVEAT OF REMOVING HISTORY CENTRISM ..

...Recently a western documentary maker was
scheduled to interview me for a film on spirituality. He wants to show the sameness of all paths, but after reading BD he got uncomfortable. So at the last minute he got what he wanted in an interview with a well known RKM swami in the Boston area and another with a well known "sameness" Vedanta scholar in Rochester. Both of them were glad to oblige, and not provoke with a stand that forces people out of their comfort zone. So he called me to say that he already
has the statement from Hindu experts that suffice. I face this all the time ...

 ... I refer you to www.HinduGoodNews.com to understand the difference between Hindu and Christians good news about dealing with the human condition....

...I am disappointed but not surprised that such a large number of well meaning persons dont seem to understand some rudimentary logic: The universality of physics does NOT mean that ALL TRUTH CLAIMS are valid. I think people dont get the idea that truth claim is different than truth. Every physics-claim by every scientist does not turn out to be true; each claim undergoes validation as per the scientific method. Just making a claim by itself does not establish its validity. We have free speech which includes the right to make claims that could be false. Physicists make all sorts of hypotheses and every hypothesis is not necessarily true. You should refer to Christian doctrine as a hypothesis, no more and no less. You must go through my detailed responses in another thread recently that: All claims of dharma are not dharmic; otherwise the ideologies or Ravana, Bib Laden, Hitler, and every random person would be dharmic. Dharma would turn into moral relativism with no standards or criteria to determine it."

Jalan has another analysis of SRF and Paramahamsa Yogananda's writings on Christ. For brevity, we leave it out, but its worth reading in the original thread.

Surya responds to one of Sameer's earlier comments on universalism of science:
"> Sameer: Dharma is a universal science - it cannot belong to any nation any more than Physics can. The original teachings of Jesus are nothing but Dharma.

Underlying principle you are using is: Universal science does not belong to any one nation. It does not follow that people can take laws of Physics and add subjective variations and send back into the world of science.... It suffices to say that modifying or adding physics knowledge is a tightly controlled and managed process and not a free for all. Should not the same be true for Dharma? "

Rajeev has the last word in this long post. For brevity, only the highlighted ones are included: 
".....I do not deny that: Jesus' statement could be reinterpreted using entirely new categories and meanings to make them close to dharma. (So no use telling me how this or that swami reinterpreted. As per #1 above, we know that is a simple thing to do. What I question is the legitimacy of such reinterpretations. These new categories and meanings contradict the basic premises of Bible and Christianity, so such reinterpretations are lifting Jesus out of the context of that tradition....
 
.... Can you get Christians to install Krishna, Shiva, Durga, Kali, Ganesh, Hanuman into their church on the basis of sameness of divinity? Please watch my Tully debate in which I ask him to do this when he claims "we are same" and notice how he recoils at my bold suggestion."
 
 Epilogue:
At this point, it's clear that the evidence is quite damaging in that the approach chosen by the author (Phil Goldberg), what ever may be his intent, is in fact an example of digestion of Hinduism, where he is cherry-picking Hindu concepts (ripping them from Hindu context) and doing a plug-and-play into Western Universalism, essentially deeming Hinduism to be irrelevant to Westerners today. Yet, it seems there is some more to said about this encounter. Don't miss part-2.

Debate: Holy Spirit is not the same as Shakti or Kundalini

This riveting discussion surrounding a debate on: Shakti and Kundalini and its erroneous equivalence to 'Holy spirit', took place in June-July 2011. This was an online debate between Rajiv Malhotra and Francis Clooney, a Jesuit Catholic priest and a professor of Harvard, who is also knowledgeable about Hindu texts and visits India frequently. This debate started off well enough before Clooney suddenly dropped out of the debate and did not return despite Rajiv's request.[He's not the first and probably will not be the last person to debate Rajiv and suddenly vacate the stage]. We carry both sides of the debate and summarize impressions from RMF contributors. 

Some key reasons why very important voices of Christianity have stealthily appropriated fundamental concepts of Hinduism rather than openly borrow from it, become apparent after you read this thread.

On Beliefnet.com: 'Holy Spirit is not the same as Shakti or Kundalini

This is an important thread and will be excerpted in depth in this post that was initiated by a post by Rajiv Malhotra on this subject in beliefnet.com 
Rajiv's article is typically well-researched and factual, and ideally, must be read in full before following the rest of the discussion. Only the concluding remarks from his article in Beliefnet is carried here.

"... Many Westerners have appropriated aspects of the Hindu Goddess to address issues within Christianity, in particular its patriarchy, institutions, weak ecological base and absence of yoga. While this is laudable, great care must be taken that core Hindu notions such as Shakti are not imported as mere "add-ons." Dissecting the tradition into separate parts and digesting them selectively distorts the source. Shakti cannot be domesticated.

The authentic acceptance of Shakti and kundalini by Christians is much more daunting and would entail rejecting centuries of Church inquisition against pluralistic manifestations of the divine. It would involve reinventing Christianity with the Goddess accessible directly as the Supreme Being. This would rekindle memories of paganism, polytheism and chaos. "

We begin by carrying the opening remarks of Rajiv nearly intact:
"... It refutes the trend among many westerners whose tantra guru led them to shakti/kundalini experience, but who later want to abandon dharma and re-interpret it as something within Judeo-Christianity. Many gurus started to sell to such followers the notion that shakti/kundalini = Holy Spirit of Christianity. This means you can pluck what you need from Hinduism, reject the source, and in the process boost Christianity's appeal. Hinduism ends up in a museum just like the old pagan religions from which many "useful" things got appropriated by Christianity before those faiths got destroyed brutally.

An entirely new Christian theology has emerged that emphasizes Holy Spirit using this appropriation from Hinduism. It started among a fringe element of speculative thinkers who simultaneously had a guru. But it has penetrated into the Christian mainstream theologians gradually. Along the way, the champions of this wave have discarded Hinduism ever more forcefully and reinvented a whole new approach to seeing the Bible and the feminine in it.

This article is a summary of a longer argument that appears in my forthcoming book this fall. I hope gurus will stop selling out, as that distorts our tradition while also misinforming westerners who later suffer internal conflicts."

Ram Ohri comments:
"...Very few among them have any knowledge about 'dharma', and most of them are ignorant about the fate which is likely to befall the next generation of Hindus. In that sense they are followers of 'Charvak' believing in enjoying life to the
last dreg."

Rajiv Malhotra adds:
"....Francis Clooney (a Harvard Prof. and a Jesuit theologian) in direct response to my blog ... has called for an open discussion on the subject. I have posted a comment under his article accepting his challenging and asking him to arrange a level forum. I have also written to America Magazine to see if they wish to carry this debate at their site.

I hope such a debate materializes as it would help both traditions to clear the mis-perceptions that are out there..." [Here are the links to Rajiv's blog, and  Francis Clooney's article

Sutapas shares findings:
"Some interesting info on the origins of Christian ‘Demonology’ in Origen which I was just editing in one of my chapters. May be of interest in your debate.

I’ve also pasted a paragraph on William Blake’s views on such energies within us [not mentioned here is that Blake also read first English translation of Bhagavad Gita by Williams in 1785].

Rather like Emmanuel Swedenborg, J.H.M. Whiteman in his final book Universal Theology focuses on mystical encounters with ‘Co-Minds’, semi-autonomous elements of the complex nexus making up our individual psyches. Many Biblical references to groups, tribes, angels etc. actually refer to such perennial mystical realizations as in the Fathers and Relatives of the Vedas and Upanishads [UT]. These Co-Minds correspond to Jung’s autonomous ‘complexes’ which were called ‘demons’ by the early Church [P&M].

Origen, the first major Christian thinker studied under the same Ammonias Saccas who taught the great Plotinus [HC]. Von Franz tells us that Origen wrote that each of us is not One but Many. As long as we are sinners we have in us ‘herds of sheep’ and ‘birds of heaven’. These need to be integrated through the influence of Christ [P&M]. The role of ‘Christ’ here parallels the role of the so-called ‘Inner Self Helper’ in modern psychiatric studies of dissociative disorders which again seems equivalent to the Inner Light [O/OM].  Von Franz claims that the Monotheism of the Old Testament and the idea of Christ being the One Man required believers to confront the inner demons and animal souls....

... Freud actually secularized Jewish mysticism, stripping it of supernatural elements in his totally absurd but influential ‘Psychoanalysis’ [DB/RM] which posed fraudulently as a scientific psychology (see Chapter 5). Yahweh may be ‘ethical’ but his ethical code is that of a tribal wargod advocating genocide, hatred of outsiders, misogyny and countless acts of jealousy and violent rage! In the Gospel of John, Chapter 8 Jesus is said to have told his fellow Jews [UT]: You are of your father the devil ...He was a murderer from the beginning...and there is no truth in him.

In his essay, What India can Teach Us, Jung wrote that unlike the West, India had followed the other way of civilizing Man, the way without suppression, without violence. India embraced the whole man from top to bottom [JotE]..."

 Ravi shares his comments on Clooney's article:

" .. my supporting comment ..."

Chitra notes:
"What an excellent development. Fortunately, he doesnt seem like another Pat Robertson. I hope it happens, and that it remains cordial."

Rajiv's response:
"Clooney is extremely well educated in Hindu texts, teaches it with great passion and spends extensive visits for research in India. On a theoretical level he probably has more knowledge of Hinduism than most "activists" I come across. We
have shared the podium at Waves and we both felt that there ought to be more time to continue such conversations. That plenary event was at the invitation of Prof. Bal Ram Singh a few years ago and the audience felt good about it. These
are opportunities to educate our own people who tend to function very naively.

To compare Clooney with Pat Robertson is silly. I anticipate Clooney to bring strong arguments on how shakti-like principles might be found within Christianity. There is a discipline within Christian theology called Pneumatology, which is specifically the study of Holy Spirit. It has been around for centuries. Today's pneumatologists are sneaking in shakti-like principles (i.e. appropriations) sometimes after explicit comparisons with shakti and then gradually erasing these and claiming to be doing christian theology...

... Most members here probably dont know that Protestant theologians DO NOT want to appropriate Hindu philosophy and their approach is to reject it outright it. Catholicism is different, and its theologians have been busy appropriating for a century and i have a book planned for 2012 just on that issue...

... Clooney like all Jesuits is a Catholic theologian, a very
important one in the world today. Pat Robertson is a Protestant evangelist, and not a theologian at all. "

...This is why Clooney is taking my very brief blog on Holy Spirit so seriously. If left unchallenged, it could enable me to educate Hindus on this issue. That would make it tougher for Catholic theologians to do this appropriation.

I will constantly have to educate our folks on what the game board looks like, for they are too inbred and lack the basic knowledge to engage Christianity as serious intellectuals. I am sad to have to say this after 20 years of tireless efforts to get more people to do purva-paksha seriously."

Vish adds:
"Rajiv Malhotra's  position is absolutely correct. I have spent some personal and quality time, in the past, with Father Clooney during his sabbatical in Princeton, and have read many of his works on the Vedanta.  I am, to a certain extent, aware of the 'Vaasanas' (conditioned impressions) under which 'studies of the other' is made..
...  - He is very well acquainted with India, having spent time there and in having visited Jesuit schools and colleges (including St.Xaviers in Kolkatta about which this writer is acquainted)

- He does 'Praanayama' and prefers the new vogue photo of Christ, seated cross legged in a meditative pose.

- Being a Ph.D. and a professor and Theologian, he takes his view of life, profession, and knowledge seriously...

- If its possible, I feel the young adults (college going or professional) who have been introduced to Hindu thoughts in their school going lives, such as the Arya Vidya Peetham in Saylorsburg or Chinmaya Mission in Boston/Cranberry NJ (both of whom carry mention in Harvard Web pages)  or the Hindu Students Council, should be encouraged to attend these debates. These are the future American-Hindu citizens to whom these things will matter..."

Rajiv adds a clarification to is response to Chitra:
"...My remarks at the end of Chitra's post were NOT intended to refer to her per se, but to the general state if affairs concerning our activists. I often append my general thoughts at the end of someone's post as a matter of convenience, because I see an opportunity to express myself. Just to clarify, I respect Chitra a lot; we go back many, many years and we are on the same page on such matters"

Rajiv also shares his comments posted at Clooney's article to give readers an idea of the significance of that thread:
"
Hello P.J. Johnson,

I am glad to hear your candid position, that many Christians DO espouse the kind of sameness I refer to. You go further and ask, in effect, whats wrong with doing that?

My first goal is to get Christians to come out as in your case and admit this appropriation. There is nothing wrong with the cross-fertilization of cultures and faiths. But why hide this? It might surprise you how many Christian who DO approrpiate shakti into Christianity are in denial mode and like to camouflage this. Why, I ask?

Why is it that Greek influences on Christianity since St. Augustine are so explicity acknowledged and the Greek sources honored, but the same is not true of Hindu sources that have been so influential in modern re-interpretations of Christianity?

In a book planned for 2012, I show that Hindu influences on Christian theology far exceed the Greek influences but that Hindu sources have to be erased as something embarassing to Christianity, or as somehow making the appropriated element suspicious.

The Greeks were also heathens and infidels, hence that should not be the basis for hiding Hindu influences. My analysis goes deeper and locates the REASON for Christians wanting to distance themselves from Hindu sources after learning so much from them ..."



Rajiv posted excerpts from a response of Mr. Johnson. For Hindus who are used to open debating and sharing since times immemorial, the information in this comment can be stunning:
"Below is an excerpt from one PJ Johnston's comment, in which he responds to my question: Why must Christians who appropriate from Hinduism hide their sources rather than respect them with honor:

"Speaking entirely from personal experience, I think there are a lot of reasons why individual Christians who borrow from Hinduism or other religions might avoid publicizing the fact.  ... I was already the organizer of a small interfaith prayer group, and we had a Yahoo group and a website that documented our projects.  Someone associated with the community discovered the website, was deeply scandalized by the fact that we borrowed from other religions and admitted doing so, and printed a thick file of material from the website and circulated it to several bishops on the seminary Board of Trustees, which began a heresy investigation and put pressure on the seminary dean to remove me as a student ...  the head of the alumni association was the former parish priest of my academic advisor at the University of Chicago, which would have meant that the seminary would have sacrificed a significant amount of money in lost donations).  ... after which I received anonymous death threats, had Indian iconography stolen out of my prayer stall, and became an absolute pariah.  ... but this effectively destroyed my hope of livelihood as a mainstream Anglican priest and forced me to go back into Ph.D. studies. The financial, spiritual, and psychological costs associated with being open about interfaith borrowing were more than one could expect a rational person to accept, and if I were a rational person at all (instead of an unreasonably stubborn survivor of childhood bullying with a serious problem with giving into injustice) I would not have been willing to pay them."
 

Ravi shares more links:
"Please see links ... Thinly veiled appropriation? I'm inclined to think so.

But the keypoint is how seriously Catholic seminaries (among many many other Christian educational institutions) take their "purvapaksha".  This site is from them, though not very obvious immediately. A Fr. Vensus George there has done (extremely detailed) comparisons between Vedanta & western thought (Shankara vs Heidegger, etc etc, eg :    ). I've spent time reading the whole Advaita explanation in detail, & would invite scholars here to refute his understanding if they could..."





This definition of "gadfly" from wikipedia will be useful to while reading the next comment:
"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions, or just being an irritant."

Rajiv shares is disappointment at Francis Clooney suddenly choosing to drop out of the debate:
"I have posted the following comment at Francis Clooney's blog in America Magazine:

I am disappointed that Clooney has run away after posting this blog in response to mine. My letter to the magazine editor got no response. Clooney wrote back declining my offer to publicly discuss the issues concerning false comparisons of Holy Spirit and Shakti. I persisted, and he has written back praising me, saying that calling me a gadfly was in the same vein as Socrates was a gadfly.

Clooney is a very controversial figure among Hindus, but despite that I have always enjoyed our frank discussions over many years. To many Hindus, he is a Vatican spy and subversive, wanting to befriend Hindus in the same manner as the infamous Robert de Nobili, and for similar motives. This is Catholic inculturation at its greatest heights. To others he is a gadfly on Hinduism who has used naive Hindus to boost his reputation, and thus get himself a prestitious post at Harvard,
where, ironically, he is seen as an expert on Hinduism. He now mentors many other scholars on Hinduism...

...I dont think this hit-and-run is in the interest of advancing our mutual learning or that of readers. i have requested that he return to the table. Let us celebrate the differences between our respective faiths with mutual respect" 

Madhukar adds:
"This is not just the problem in America it is also in India. When one challenges the statements and practices of Christianity and their missionary zeal in public they hide themselves from the challenges. No wonder. "

Excerpts from a response by George who does not take kindly to Clooney's hit-and-run:
"... takes up, among other things, the costume of a gadfly only to deceive people. His chief assignment from Vatican is to cannibalize Hinduism, like they did many other traditions in the past... Clooney is never known to have debated anybody who knows anything about the subject to be debated. ... In his line of work, Clooney explores and scrutinizes points in Hinduism worthwhile to be plagiarized and transfer them to Jesus Christ and then summarize these in a supposedly scholarly work..."

Mary is not thrilled by George's comments:
"The post by George is a shocking ad hominem. I'm surprised that such fact-free vitriol would be allowed to sully what is otherwise tempered and
judicious exchange..

I was raised a Catholic and am quite familiar with teachings about the Holy Spirit. When I first read Rajiv's published article on Shakti, I observed several errors in understanding and history about the Holy Spirit. I mentally noted to myself that pre-publication, the article would have benefitted from a
collegial review by someone well-versed in the theology in question ..."

Rajiv's response:
"I wont comment on the allegations against George - he can do that.

But in the same post Mary mixes up an ad hominem against me for writing the article on Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with George.

She dismisses it as filled with errors, but fails to give a single argument in support of such a sweeping statement. This is illogical. Being raised in a religion does not necessarily make one an expert in it. In fact, most popular ideas of a religion are what some folks want to sell, and much that is true gets blocked. Today, much that is taught in Catholicism is appropriated from various sources over time, and then the sources blocked/erased...  I have hired more
than one product of Princeton Theological Seminary, one of the best in the world, precisely to find mistakes and suggest better alternatives... I find it troubling to have my work dismissed flippantly with no reason cited or backup provided whatsoever"

George responds to Mary:
"Ms. Mary, I didn't have you in mind personally when I mentioned "fools of other persuasions" being taken for a ride by Clooney. I am sorry if I gave you a rude shock. [Many] people get fooled by the seeming "tempered and judicious"
exchange.

However, if one removes the wool of faith over one's eyes, one will begin to see what I mean about Clooney and one day thank me for pointing out the facts. I've never heard of a Jesuit who seemed what he really is.

You can check this out yourself: ask Fr. F. X. Clooney why doesn't he participate in a debate with Rajiv Malhotra "

Bhakthi comments on U-turns:
"After 36 years in ISKCON, I know of very few members who U-turned back to their Judao-Christian roots. Many, however, either having left their commitment to Vaisnava-dharma, or even while ostensibly remaining within it,
have UTurned into postmodern relativism."

Rajiv has the last word in this discussion as he responds to BV: 
".. What I explained in ou[r] chat when we met in
Princeton was a small bit of it.

Uturn does not necessarily return the person back to his/her original faith or identity. In fact that is very rare. In most cases of uturn, the person seeks some other western identity, or even defines a new original one, or remains in what I call stage-2 where "there is no identity at all" or there is  everything is the same" identity.

Uturn process does not end with the individual. It continues through others who follow in that person's footsteps, taking it further. So while the primary uturner might not go back to a western religion, his/her followers/readers/students later on DO take that dharmic appropriated material and re-frame it into explicitly western history. I cite numerous examples of
these multi-generational trajectories."

Hence, individual uturns are just one kind in my model. There are two other kinds, one of which is the uturn of a SCHOOL OF THOUGHT OR LINEAGE."
 
 

Case Study: Debating with an Elite Convert

This thread covers a discussion that concluded in July 2011. Here is the original thread:

Need advice on how to dialog with an elite who has converted In this case study, 'Rajee', an acquittance of Rakesh, is a member of an elite management institute, and a recent convert to Christianity that alarms Rajesh, who wants her to ensure she has her eyes fully open. It appears that one or both of these persons live outside India. Rajee is willing to discuss the situation with Rakesh who posted this:  "Now, guys, here is an elite Hindu, educated at leading Management institutes, who has been converted Willing to dialog with me. Can we provide arguments to make her see the point, we are all trying to make ? Rakesh shares a message he sent her (excerpts): " ... Do write about your experience with Jesus I have often  found, such subjective " experiences " often cloud one's objectivity. Personal disappointments, emotional succour at the right time by say christians, constant repetition of certain pre programmed messages by your family, often have similar effects... i am willing to share my experiences and you may do yours. I want to make sure your conversion is based on real faith and so, i will test yours through this correspondence..." Rajee's response: "... I am going through a great personal relationship with Jesus...and of course each one to his own. Just as each life comes with an unique formula to unravel itself, I believe even the choice of God worship is one such. For me it has been an amazing journey so far- with abundant grace leading to great self introspection..." The first email sent by Rajesh to Rajee is excerpted below: "Dear rajee ... Good to know you have had a multi cultural marriage, congrats. However, i believe your initial reaction to your local pastor, should not extend to all christianity. Please read the history of inquisition, greek woman philosopher hypatia etc. There is a book by rajiv malhotra on breaking india, you should read it. Most inter cultural dialog initiatied by the church has a pre determined conclusion- jesus is the only way, your way is fundamentally wrong. The initial friendliness soon evaporates, if you probe further, unfortunate and not in line with Christ's teachings but true . ... i would sincerely like to continue this dialog and find out more, without troubling your affectionate relationship with [her Christian husband, I presume]. As some one who is committed to multiculturalism, based on a hindu approach to life, this is of deep interest to me." -------------------------------------------------------------------- The above are relevant excerpts from Rakesh's initial post that, if you observe, already includes a degree of Purva Paksha of Christianity. Now let us examine the feedback from RMF contributors. Margaret, a PhD scholar responded: "I am following that conversation attentitevely. This is a recurring problem in so many colonized countries when elite educated take upon themselves to defend their christian colonizers religion and mode of operation that lead their country in a mess. I defended a thesis on that issue of elites returning to their roots and how they have done it in facing internal factors, external factors. I wish your book [Breaking India] was available during that time? When I ordered it last month it and read it. It should struck a cord in all indigenous people because this is the story on how the world was colonized."  Ram follows up: "May I point out that the process of converting the so-called heathens (i.e. the indigenous civilisations of Asia) is now in fast forward mode ?    A classic example of  the long reach of evangelists massively financed by western countries is the fast growth of Christianity in South Korea. It rose from 43,000 (o.28 percent of total population) to a whopping 13,000,000 (i.e. nearly 40% of total population) in 1990. After reading my friend Rajiv Malhotra's well researched book, 'Breaking India', I am now convinced that soon, very soon, Hindus of  South India, especially Tamil Nadu, will face the same situation..." Suresh has prepared a reference to Rakesh: "*Below link has a number of discussions on almost all major points.  " Raj suggests:  "The essential problem here is: Parenting. Dharmic parents should signup their children for yoga and meditation programs, by the time they are about 10 years old... Doing yoga and meditation regularly, along with studying the Upanishads and Gita, will immunize the children against exclusivist ideologies." Rajiv Malhotra disagrees on the grounds of necessary condition - but insufficient and suggests that the problem lies in the history-centrism of Christianity: "While this kind of upbringing is important, it DOES NOT IMMUNIZE against conversion. You have made similar posts before which also implied that dharma as a "way of life" is all it is. I replied earlier as well that A WAY OF LIFE CAN EASILY BE IMPORTED AND ASSIMILATED TO FIT INTO JESUS' UNIQUE HISTORY. Nothing bothers the christian narrative if jesus is shown as yogi and meditator, in fact thats what inculturation is all about. The next gen of bharatnatyam dancers and training centers in many indian states is largely christian. the same trend is for yoga in USA. so how does knowing yoga/meditation counteract a version of christianity that already has these assimilated. ... Todays churches use sanskrit names, the priests even wear saffron, prayers are like puja including aarti, incense, sitting  crosslegged on floor. But the CONTENT is 100% Nicene Creed - that we suffer due to original sin, that jesus took virgin birth making him not a sinner, that he died for us so we may not have to suffer, and hence the only way to salvation is by accepting this HISTORY of events. I have written, written and written for 20 years about this central difference made by such a HISTORY. it seems to go in one ear and out the other. i have no idea what to do - or just give up??? ..." There are several followups, but none that do a Purva Paksha of Christianity, although Suresh' attempt, without the benefit of reading 'Being Different' that was not yet available at that time is laudable. No other guest contributor has suggested a solution to Rakesh's immediate problem and the focus shifted to future issues. Rajiv Malhotra's response to one such followup: "...Rajiv response: I have not read these specific works. But if they are like dozens of similar things I have read, they ARE INSUFFICIENT BECAUSE THEY LACK A GOOD PURVA PAKSHA... Hindu leaders have helped facilitate this process starting with three major movements: Ramakrishna Mission's US leaders such as Swami Pramananada, Parmahansa Yogananda, J. Krishnamurti. Scores of Hindu thinkers have followed suit and made this fashionable. ... Only after you reach the stage of grasping what I wrote above can one begin inquiring what the remedies are. Thats why I resist letting people jump fast to "solutions" because these tend to be obsolete, superficial and without the understanding of the intellectual discourse on the other side" Dr. Basant provides an useful suggestion: "This has been an issue which has confronted us all along. Even more so here in the US today... We are competing against religions, who have their basic tenets so exclusive that they will without any doubt proclaim theirs is the only way. ...the central principle of our dharma is freedom of thought and expression. However, our teachings from our religious leaders are that all religions are same, and a vast majority of us do not care. ...We have to be willing to read Old testament and Koran, and then be willing to tell our children and others that their dogma is so contradictory to our teachings" Vishal provides feedback from a related prior experience. I found it tough to summarize this, so I've included his full comment. "In my teenager class, I actually take the Koran and Bible with me. Two years ago, a teenager was upset and started arguing with me that Muhammad was a Yogi. He 'quoted' Muhammad to the effect that 'an ounce of meditation is worth more than a pound of prayer' (or something similar). I asked him where did he say that. He could not get the answer. One day, I opened a page of the Koran and read it out to him. He was horrified and argued that it was not a genuine copy of Koran. I asked him to verify himself that the Koran was published an Islamic nation, and was translated by an Islamic scholar. Similar things happened a few times again (there were other kids too who said similar things) but each time they were asked to read the Bible and the Koran in front of everyone. The objections ceased in a few months. The teenager mentioned above is now going to be a teacher in our school starting in September." Ramachandra commented: ".. With in a span of just 20 years Arya Samaj had phenomenal impact in the society by [re-]converting as much people as close to half a million.It is estimated by various people that by 1920, there were around 200000+ people who have been [re-]converted in the Punjab and Kashmir provinces alone from Islam to Hinduism..." The remaining followups had very little to do with Rakesh and Rajee. There was no followup from Rakesh. 'Purva Paksha' of Christianity may have helped Rakesh to prepare a followup for Rajee. Unfortunately, 'Being Different' was not yet released at that time, so many of us [Hindus] were largely unaware of the irreconcilable differences between Dharmic faiths and Abrahamic religions. If you are Hindu [any race/country/born/converted] who is concerned about the problem of induced conversions, and have gone through this discussion thread (especially in its original form): Take a few minutes to reflect on this situation and try answering the following question to the best of your ability, knowing what you know now. Suppose you were Rajee's friend. How would you follow up with her? (If possible, add your comments and indicate if you have already read 'Being Different' or not) .

RMF Summary: Week of August 29 - September 4, 2011

August 29

JNU scholar becomes Nepals new MAOIST PM. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/JNU-scholar-becomes-Nepals-new-Maoist-PM/articleshow/9771299.cms KATHMANDU: A slight, bespectacled...

[This is the first JNU has showed up in RMF. To learn more about this university, see this link].

August 30

More secessionist pressures Here is an interesting article from Wharton's India newsletter titled "Are Smaller States the Answer in India?" ...

Blond Jesus from 1800s Vijay shares a photograph: Here is a link from within this forum in the photo section which I just uploaded.... I took this picture this summer at Hohen Schawngau Castle in Bavaria Germany. This castle was built or rebuilt around 1855. It clearly shows a 'Blond Jesus'. What is there for anyone to say. Jesus was a Jew so most likely a short man with black curly locks, but here the christians have created a Aryan baby Jesus. I took this picture because as soon as I saw this image, words of Rajiv Malhotra's Breaking India resonated in my ears. Rajiv Malhotra's response: "...I dont know when i will get around to publishing it [BI] in the full version because i have many other projects pending. One of the article I wrote (unpublished) was titled "How Jesus Became Blonde". All earlier art showed Jesus with Middle Eastern features, and only in the past 200 years did Jesus start looking like a white man." Ganesh shares a related link: ".... Excerpt. "LBI Institute says its version, Judith Christ of Nazareth, The Gospels of the Bible, Corrected to Reflect that Christ Was a Woman, Extracted from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, takes Thomas Jefferson's edited Gospel one step futher by "correcting" the gender of Christ and God." Shaas follows up: "The Church is like a chameleon. It changes features, philosophies, approaches with only one purpose: to defeat her "competitors", i.e. cultures, religions, etc.....  Different with Sanatan Dharm that is the expression of deepest natural law. Veda is knowledge and it will not and cannot be changed. Maybe expanded and brought in new words - but it is Natural Law, eternal. It deals systematically with the basis of life - consciousness - and as such is indispensable for any kind of educational system. The past and present of Christianity are the clearest example how a religion, in absence of a real basis, can be again and again manipulated to be an instrument of power mongers." Rajiv Malhotra makes an important point in his response: "All religions change over time to respond to the needs of the context. We call this smritis. These are not fixed or else we would be frozen in time as often alleged. Even the aesthetics of how a deity is presented changes and is merely artist imagination. Not a single image of Krishna or Rama claims to be by an artist who saw the avatara at that time. There are no images surviving from that era assuming there were such images. So these are artist imaginations and such imaginations evolved over time". August 31 Evangelical Christianity: Devils in high places Rajiv Malhotra posts:  I dont know where this review appeared [found a link in DNA] but it shows that the British author (who was featured in this thread in the early days) supports Breaking India's thesis. Evangelical Christianity:Devils in high places By Yogesh Pawar In his explosive new book The Armies Of God: A Study In Militant Christianity,British-born, Malaysia-based academic Iain Buchanan blows the lid off a subjectthat most scholars and journalists tend to shy away from: the rise of US evangelism as a force in global affairs. His book looks at how some of the powerful evangelical outfits operate — often asUS government proxies — in countries such as Indonesia, Thailand, and ofcourse, India, and the disastrous effects this has had on the relationship between the Christian West and non-Christian cultures, religious communities and nations..." Raj shares another interview: " NPR interview with Rachel Tabachnick (whose www.talk2action.org site has plenty of info), discussing The New Apostolic Reformation ideology, end-time, Tea Party policies and controlling all areas of society and government. This group organized Rick Perry’s recent prayer rally, and it is connected to Sarah Palin’s church as well. Here is the intro, excerpts below: The Evangelicals Engaged In Spiritual Warfare An emerging Christian movement that seeks to take dominion over politics, business and culture in preparation for the end times and the return of Jesus, is becoming more of a presence in American politics. The leaders are considered apostles and prophets, gifted by God for this role. ..."   September 4 IGNOU constitutes awards promoting Christian Bishops Desh Kapoor shares a link:  Interesting, that a national body - IGNOU - is doing MOUs with religious institutions to start special Chairs in the University! ... September 4 Soccer Missionaries!! Please read about Soccer Missionaries http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578716,00.html This is in context to the friendly football match between... September 4 [Being Different book announcement] My new book announced by HarperCollins, Planning the book tour Some of you asked for a way to pre-order the new book in India. The publishwer's web site has announced this as a "Coming Soon" title: ... September 4 New flood of datapoints for the Breaking India thesis... More & more data points are getting added up to further re-confirm the BreakingIndia book's thesis...a testimony that the book can be a powerful resource to... September 4 Ramayanas Conference at SMU There is a Ramayana conference at SMU (Southern Methodist University) here in Dallas on Saturday, September 24: http://www.sarii.org/ramayanas.html   The... September 4 Church giving incentives to larger families Ganesh shares a link: Church giving incentives to larger families 02/09/2011 00:28:43 PNS | KOCHI Worried over the...

RMF Summary: Week of August 22 - 28, 2011

August 22

Senate Bill 1245 On July 29, 2011, the US House passed HR440 with overwhelming bi-partisan support. The bill calls for the appointment of a Special Envoy to Promote Religious Freedom of Religious Minorities in the Near East and South Central Asia. The Special Envoy would carry the rank of Ambassador. This is an important position through which the United States can regain world leadership in fighting these human rights abuses. The bill was sent to the Senate as S1245, and it now rests with the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. You can read the text of the bill by clicking here... Rajiv Malhotra responds: "... I prefer a one-time committee to probe Bangladeshi Hindus' plight rather than a permanent institution that is a specialized version of USCIRF"  August 23  Article by Koenard Elst on hindu activism outside sangh parivar Ramakumaran posts: A brief study by Shri. Koenard Elst ji on hindu activism outside sangh Rajiv Malhotra responds: "....In the 1990s, I coined the term and championed the notion of being "a Non-Hindutva Hindu". It drew a lot of flak from the Hindutva folks who claimed exclusivity of representing all Hindus. (The term "hindutva" means Hindu-ness so it does imply the posture of all Hindus, but "Hindutva" with a capital H is a proper noun for a specific political movement that is synonymous with RSS.) So my term merely suggests a Hindu who is not part of the Sangh's institutional movement. I see no contradiction here. I was equally attacked by anti-Hindus who claimed that I was avoiding the branding effect of the RSS by adopting an independent approach. My approach forced them to address my issues and not dismiss me by using guilt-by-association. I have and will continue to pursue my independent thinking which means it will sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with any given institution. .. ... In some ways, dharma has encouraged such individualism. Recently, the leaders of such organized movements have not only accepted the reality of the independent public intellectual, but they appreciate why it must exist, and the purpose it serves in the long run by providing fresh ideas that large groups cannot produce. This is like any large technology company realizing that small start ups are necessary vehicles for creativity which large organizations cannot do internally due to internal politics, bureaucracy, mediocrity, dead wood, etc. - all problems that plague the RSS parivar..."  Karigar notes: "...Koenraad Elst's survey also helps those of us who don't have much of an understanding of the Parivar, to get a fairly neutral background briefing."   Vijaya Rajiva responds: "...Sangh Parivar tend to be self effacing and do not advertise their good works.I did my own personal research after reading the negative account of them in Ram Guha's book India After Gandhi.... For example, the recent book by Dr. Shrinivas Tilak 'Reawakening to a secular Hindu Nation' (2008) is an important contribution to Parivar theory. Likewise Dr. Kalyanraman's book Rashtram (May 2011) is also an important contribution... ...Apart from their sterling social and economic services to the country their tradition has been outstanding in the defence of the country since the time of its inception. ... Hence, it is important for us who do solid independent work as Hindus, to inform ourselves of their achievements, both in the theoretical sphere and as well as in the practical one. "   VS disagrees with Elst and Rajeev: "... I completely disagree with Rajiv and others on RSS in this thread. We have not done our home work right before making our statements. Sangh Parivar is very much active otherwise how Tribal belt is saved from missionary activities, how come North East is been tried to be brought closer to main stream, who is organizing India security meets, Mandala Kumbh , Voice against Kashmiri separatists, bringing Gujjars of Kashmir to voice against separatists, 1.6 Lacs SEWA efforts,Ekal Vidayala, VYAASA, initiative in Srilanka after internal war, meeting close to one crore people after PC stated term Hindu Terrorism, Dharma efforts in Caribbean, uniting Sadhu samaj, Sitting a Padmanabhaya temple against Govt take over...." Subramanian Swamy responds to Rajiv: "Let us create a critical mass /body of such persons." Vijaya Rajiva seconds Swamy's idea: "Excellent suggestion from Dr. Swamy. There is nothing preventing us Hindus from mobilisng and forming a critical mass. The Parivar surely is not standing in our way !" Rajiv Malhotra provides a detailed response that is worth reading in full on RMF. We excerpt it here: "The intention of the thread was not to open a critique of RSS or a defense of it. The intention was make a simple point: There is no single organization that can claim to own exclusivity over Hindu dharma representation. Hence, those who defend RSS and those who criticize it are both missing this point... ...In the early years their reaction was defensive, with claims that "we have all this under control", "we dont need your help", etc. As I persisted and educated them on problems they had never even heard of ... They became more humble about acknowledging their own limits. ...In fact, many of my ideas are now being appropriated and getting incorporated into their long term thinking. This means that those who work independently have made useful contributions which RSS could not. ...At my recent talks in Delhi on Breaking India, one of the most prominent intellectuals who was a top official in the BJP government came to me and said: "We simply do not have the capability to produce such works ourselves, not at this standard of rigor, thoroughness, quality..." I thanked him for his candidness. Another told me: "It will take at least a decade for us to build up such capability." These days, the top echelon of Sangh do appreciate independent public intellectuals. This over-zealous display of "loyalty" we saw on this thread comes from the low and middle tier ranks... Bandwagons attract mediocrity, ...  ... Those like ATT who were too slow to change fell by the wayside while others like IBM that kept churning their ranks to reinvent themselves thrived. Every large organization living off of old momentum needs a SWOT analysis to know how to reinvent themselves out of such inbred culture. Bottom line: I doubt the Sangh top tier want to alienate outside independent thinkers today. If anything they would love to co-opt them at senior levels. ... My views are not an attack against any specific large organization but merely explain the limitations of all large organizations once they get stodgy. ... Large institutions own infrastructure which the independent individual lacks, whereas the individual is more capable at creative output which gets stalled by the very nature of large group dynamics."  August 25  My discovery of Church Tactics Chitra posts: The act of searching often turns up something useful that one was not looking for. Last night I discovered that this applies to channel surfing as well. We've... ...The document in question is the DECREE AD GENTES issued by the Second Vatican Council  It lays out, in exquisite detail, the following: -- the divine mandate for missionary activity culminating in conversion -- the methods to be used by bishops, including (i)  in-depth study of Christian texts with the ability to answer all challenges (ii) knowledge of the culture targeted for infiltration and the need to project an appreciative demeanor in order to gain access (iii) the need for sharing of resources whether human or material between churches to maximize overall impact and penetration  --  the role of the laity in serving as extensions of the missionary agenda --  the role of educational institutions in furthering the missionary agenda by means of opening up a deeper understanding of the target culture so that it may be more efficiently and systematically destroyed..." August 25 Please watch 'Agora' and how Christianity destroyed classical Greek Last year I saw a feature film called 'Agora' more info on the feature film is available here  I would recommend that... August 25 Speaking of Cults... I wonder if people in India are aware of what certain Christian cults can get away with in the United States without fear of government interference. Actress Rose McGowan discusses her childhood in a Christian Cult –" I got out by the skin of my teeth" In the recent issue of People magazine, the outspoken actress went into detail about a real-life battle far scarier than any movie.McGowan, 38, spoke with People about how she spent her childhood in the Children of God cult. The sect is a "polygamous cult that blended free-love attitudes with Christian proselytizing." At age nine she escaped the cult with her father after he became fearful that Rose might be sexually abused..." August 25 Rs 40,000 crore foreign contribution to 77,000 NGOs in 4 yrs Can't but get away from the feeling of India being in deep muck. ... This thread below had a lot of comments, given the nature of the bill that was being passed and its scope for anti-Hindu mischief. August 25 Anti faith bill has been put in Assembly. Ban on Vedas, certain wors Can we get a word format of the attachment please. We need to spread the word out on this. Things are going real terrible in India for the country, with... [Bharat shared this] Please look into this and see if we can do something. http://www.scribd.com/doc/6493902/Anti-Faith-Bill-Draft http://www.hindujagruti.org/activities/campaigns/religious/anti-faith-bill/ The monsoon session of State Legislative Assembly has started from 25th July 2011. The Government has decided to pass the Anti-Superstitions Bill which is actually an attack on Hindu Dharma Rajiv Malhotra provided a detailed response. We carry excerpts here: "This is the culmination of many things which most of you did not take seriously when they could have been nipped in the bud. Examples: Over the past decade there have been major articles in National Geographic Magazine, academic conferences and sporadic media here and there, on what got characterized as "exotic" practices by Aghoras among others. In parallel there is a lot of scandal being promoted in the western press and scholarship about other "exotic" things - like rat temple somewhere, and weirdness in general. I used to write widely on such things to give a counter position and critique, but did not get enough genuine support, so I stopped wasting my time. The Hindu response was a mixture of: sameness so why bother; we are invincible; its not a problem because all this shows we are very important and interesting subject matter; etc.... ...An army of scholars, media persons, activists, and policymakers has been trained and orchestrated to prosecute Hinduism on many fronts. One of the fronts is now this law that will put non-practicing Hindus (many with Hindu names) in positions of authority to evaluate the "evil practices" of Hinduism. I have read tons of academic books on how exactly the same methods eliminated the pre-Christian faiths from the Americas and Africa. These systematic methods have become perfected and they are not a random scattering of "episodes" here and there. But our people avoid dealing with such things, preferring instead to immerse themselves with "good news" of how great everything is. I am much more popular in gatherings if go along with the India shining/Incredible narratives where everyone is dropping big names and bragging how important they have become." August 26 Important HuffPost blog on Indian corruption http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cleo-paskal/indian-corruption_b_931981.htm\ l [Rajiv's comment: This well written article exposes the links between political...